So I had another idea for a character concept for an upcoming game I will be playing in. When I have an upcoming game I typically like to lay out some different character concepts I would be interested in playing that could fill different niches. I started looking through some of the base classes presented in the APG and became interested in the Alchemist. I really kind of like how it works mechanically and the opportunities it gives for RP advancement and character development. I started thinking of what kind of Alchemist I'd like to play and the mutagens are what caught my eye the most.
With that in mind I started to look at what options I had and what kind of character I could imagine that would work well with the mutagens. First I thought of Gnomes because of their craftyness but then quickly figured that would be cliche and didn't fit my concept of a character that could wade into melee when needed. Looking through the races I settled on Half-Orc. I know it seems odd for an Alchemist (which is one reason it fascinated me) but hang with me on this one. I think you'll like the concept.
I have got some further details about the game: the DM said he will likely be using 20 point buy for stats. With that in mind, take a look at the build and let me explain it a bit afterwords.
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 18 (with the racial +2, placing all level ups here)
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Traits:
Berzerker of the Society (Class: Rage +3/day)
Another trait that is likely going to be Adventure Path specific
Race: Half-Orc
1st: Alchemist 1: Alchemy, Bombs 1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw Anything, Feat: Endurance
2nd: Barbarian 1: Fast Movement, Rage
3rd: Alchemist 2: Discovery: Feral Mutagen, Poison Resistance +2, Poison Use, Feat: Die Hard
4th: Alchemist 3: Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy
5th: Alchemist 4: Discovery: Extend Potion, Feat: Extra Discovery: Lingering Spirit
6th: Alchemist 5: Bomb 3d6, Poison Resistance +4
7th: Alchemist 6: Discovery: Eternal Potion, Swift Poisoning, Feat: Fight On
8th: Alchemist 7: Bomb 4d6
9th: Master Chymist 1: Bomb-Thrower, Mutagenic Form, Mutate 2/day, Feat: Deathless Initiate
10th: Master Chymist 2: Advanced Mutagen: Nimble, Bomb 5d6
11th: Master Chymist 3: Brutality 2, Feat: Ironhide
12th: Master Chymist 4: Advanced Mutagen: Furious Mutagen, Bomb 6d6
13th: Master Chymist 5: Mutate 3/day, Feat: Deathless Master
14th: Master Chymist 6: Advanced Mutagen: Greater Mutagen, Bomb 7d6
15th: Master Chymist 7: Brutality 4, Feat: Extra Rage
16th: Master Chymist 8: Advanced Mutagen: Growth Mutagen, Mutate 2/day, Bomb 8d6
17th: Master Chymist 9: Brutality 6, Feat: Raging Vitality
18th: Master Chymist 10: Advanced Mutagen: Grand Mutagen, Mutate 5/day, Bomb 9d6
Alright, so when thinking of the concept for the character I was trying to decide on race. Gnome seemed good for a scholastic type alchemist as they are great with crafting but I wanted my guy to be a bit different. The setting we are playing in is going to be post apocalyptic fantasy. I decided I would like to make a character drawing from a couple of different inspirations. The Master Chemist screams Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde but I wanted to put a fantasy spin on it. I also wanted to play up the internal conflict between the personalities but decided I'd rather not make them completely seperate. More like a darker side of his personality that is trying to become the dominant side and fighting him subconciously.
For this build I decided to go Half-Orc as I thought it fit thematically with the struggle between his scientific human side and his violent orc side. I also decided I wanted to draw from the human experimentation on genetic alteration done in the Third Reich during WW2 and have this character be the result of magical genetic manipulation to create a "perfect warrior" hybrid. As the character grew though he became self interested in the experiment used to create him and continued to experiment on himself in an effort of self perfection. I wanted to play up the mental schizophrenic issues and also make him a megalomaniac perfectionist.
Now.... as for the mechanics and why I chose what I did. Let me go over them one by one.
Fight On - This feat fits the overall theme of the character with being a warrior that is capable of fighting after sustaining wounds what would otherwise kill him. 1/day gain HP = Con mod when reduced to below 0HP for 1min. This works well in conjunction with his ferocity racial trait and in combination with Rage from his barbarian class level as it increases his Con.
Feral Mutagen - His beastial side is starting to come forth giving a bite and 2 claw attacks. Did I mention that in Pathfinder all natural attacks are primary? This attack routine will be his modus operandi throughout his entire progression from here on out.
Endurance - Aside from being a prerequisite feat it is in theme with the character concept of physical self perfection and conditioning. Also, being able to sleep in his armor is good.
Die Hard: with a vengence. Excuse the pun. This is where he begins to become very hard to put down. He can keep fighting until at -20 HP. That is pre-rage and without item or spell buffs.
Lingering Spirit - So yeah, now he isn't dead until -30 HP (pre-rage, item/spell buff). Good luck killing him while he is still trying to rip your face off.
Extend Potion and Eternal Potion: The idea of an eternal potion of many varieties is very appealing. Enlarge person is good early on. Later I could get this permanancied and he gets it automatically with his mutagen later as well. There are many other possibilities though like greater magic fang.
Extra Rage - Since rage is kinda a staple of this build this feat isn't a waste. Plus I needed to spend a feat before being able to qualify for his next feat. Very in theme either way.
Deathless Initiate - He now meets the steep requirements. Not staggered while using Die Hard and +2 to melee damage. Good luck trying to kill him while he is now able to full attack even while "dieing" and dealing more damage to your face.
Nimble - You know, I would have rather taken his other mutagens here but they have level requirements he doesn't yet meet. This definately helps when wading into melee though.
Ironhide - This is a prereq feat. +1 Natural AC still doesn't go to waste though.
Growth Mutagen - No longer will he be needing to quaff endless potions of Enlarge Person. Now he is big perminantly.
Deathless Master - While continuing to rip his opponent's face off while "dieing" he no longer hurts himself.
Greater Mutagen - Str +6, Con +4, Int -2, Wis -2, +4 natural armor. HULK SMASH!!! By this level I should easily be able to break 30 Con making the character not dead until -40 HP which will be tough to get to considering his massive HP pool by that time (8+1d12+7d8+6d10+140 = average 219 HP not considering items).
Raging Vitality - +2 Con while raging.
Furious Mutagen - All natural attacks move up 1 size category. They were already moved up 1 size category for being large size, this moves them up to huge size.
Toughness - By this level thats going to add up to a lot of HP. I didn't take it earlier as I was trying to get my prereq feats out of the way and had higher priorities.
Grand Mutagen - +8 Str, +6 Con, +4 Dex, -2 to Int, Wis, Cha. +6 natural armor. This stacks with Rage which will be giving +4 Str, +6 Con, -2 AC. Easily will have well over 400hp with items, and a 36 Con making him not dead until he has taken over 450 damage without getting healed. Thats without considering other extracts he will have applied to himself, buffs, other items, etc.
I did consider Spontaneous Healing but am undecided as there are other ways to obtain that effect. I could just get a scroll or something of Giant Form and become a Troll to gain Regeneration 5. It is a toss up between picking up Extra Discovery: Spontaneous Healing rather than Raging Vitality though. Neither function all of the time but I suppose that Spontaneous Healing would have an opportunity to happen more often. Both are in theme. I'll probably just leave it up in the air and decide later if/when I ever get to that level.
I like the Master Alchemist feat but I don't see it as being a primary concern of this type of character. Plus the Pathfinder/3.5 crafting rules are retarded for making poisons or any alchemy item of great value. I'm thinking my GM is going to forgoe using them in favor of an alternate system. Not sure how that will play out but I would likely approve of this change. Still I am feat starved already and I don't see where I could fit that in.
Fast Healer interested me especially with making his own extracts and potions likely for self use. Again, not sure where I can fit that in. Equipment will basically produce the same effect though so I don't mind missing it. There are some other discoveries that fit well with it though.
I have been trying to think of any way to extend the mutagen to last longer as until higher level it wont last very long. I'd count it for 1, maybe 2 encounters per day in the early levels. Considering that is where the focus of the build is on I'm not sure how effective the character will be outside of his mutagenic form. So I have been trying to think of ways that I could try to extend his mutagenic form. I was thinking maybe things that increase caster level might work like a Bead of Karma from a Necklace of Prayer Beads but now I'm not so sure that would work for two reasons: Mutagen is a (Su) Supernatural Ability rather than a Spell Like ability and because it is worded as "10 minutes per alchemist level." So I guess it probably isn't affected by caster level. I'd have to see what my GM thinks on it but my gut feeling is that there is likely nothing that can increase the duration of it short of gaining more class levels.
Unless someone knows some way of making mutagens last longer?...
I was also really torn between using Cestus for a weapon or the natural attacks granted from Feral Mutagen. In the long run I think the natural attack will be better for several reason:
1. I am always considered armed and do not have to have a weapon out
2. I can hold things in the his hands without having to drop a weapon and pick a weapon up to be able to melee
3. It gives 3 attacks early but only for a relatively short period of time. Since I doubt I will be getting more than 3 itterive attacks per round this is likely preferable. Besides there are a lot of things that stack with natural attacks in this build (Furocious mutagen, size increases to all natural weapons, greater magic fang potions, etc.)
However Cestus has it's own benefits:
1. It is easier to enchant a weapon than it is to get weaponlike properties on your natural attacks.
2. There is a possibility of two weapon fighting stacking with itterive attacks, however this is feat intensive in a build that is already slim on feats.
3. They still work in his natural form.
I'm really torn. I suppose I could do both. Cestus for his natural form, natural attacks for his mutagenic form. Actually I was thinking of using a Heavy Crossbow or something in his normal form when he isn't using his bombs.
I had considered fitting in Power Attack into the build as it is going to have a fairly high Str. However, I considered against it for a few reasons. Firstly, he wouldn't entirely benefit from it with his natural weapons. Well, not like when using a two handed weapon anyway. Also, its just another feat to try to fit into an already feat starved build. Besides I think he will be doing pretty decent damage simply with his weapon damage rolls plus strength modifier and later with Brutality. I also plan on getting an amulet of might fists with some weapon property (shocking?, keen?, holy?) on it later as well.
I have also been considering other alchemist class archetypes. The first that springs to mind is Rage Chemist but I'm kinda affraid of the constant Will saves to avoid Int damage. The rest of the archetype is sexy though. All of the others is kinda dependant on the campaign as I don't know how often we will have a chance to have some down time so I could make alchemical items or poisons. Vivisectionist is nice if I don't plan on using bombs at all but I kinda like having a backup tactic particularly to use in the early levels when I can't be in mutagenic form much/often. Internal alchemist is good and I don't really know what I would lose by not having Throw Anything as I don't believe it would interfere with the throwing of bombs or alchemical items (unless I'm missing something here?). I'm not sure how often Breath Mastery would come into play though either, the bonus feats would not be used as I already want more discoveries than naturally come with the class. Disease Resistance and Uncanny Dodge may appeal to me more than Swift Alchemy/Poisoning though depending I guess on the availability of reagents and amount of downtime we are likely to have. The Chirurgeon is interesting but doesn't really fit the build.
Beyond that, how does it look?
Obligatory bump.
Did I mention that he would wear a top hat and carry a cane? This seems mechanically relavent to the build.
Oh, something that lets you share rages or something? While I do not currently know what the party is likely to consist of, I doubt there is enough room in the party for 2 bruisers. Thank you for your suggestion though.
I'm pretty sure that you cannot use eternal potion at level 6. I would seriously consider extended mutagen over growth mutagen if you're worried about the duration of your change. Keep in mind that your looking at 170 minutes as is of altered time per change so that really isn't too bad considering that you get 6 changes per day. That is eighteen hours dude. Either way I would still consider swapping out growth mutagen as enlarge person is a really easy effect to get a rather large duration on. I just make it a point to eat one whenever it looks like we might be in combat.
Ragechemist is one heck of a penalty and before you consider it check and see how your dm treats how it stacks. Some dms consider it only to effect the base mutagen not the upgraded ones.
Ah, you are correct. I missed the prerequisite. Dang, such a good ability. I guess I can see why it has such a high prereq.
You are also correct that the later amount of time that he can spend in his mutagenic state is more than satisfactory. But I have no issue with that or the number of changes per day at later levels. It is the earlier levels that I am concerned about. Its 10min/day. That isn't very much. In fact, I wouldn't count on it for the majority of encounters until after he gets into master chymist. It is the levels prior to getting into that PrC that I am concerned about.
By the time that he gets access to Extended Mutagen he is likely to not need it. You may have a point on enlarge person being so easy to get by the level he can get growth mutagen though.
Yeah in my eyes its the capstone ability of alchemists.
Yeah, early game there isn't much you can do other than snag infuse mutagen and avoid being smashed if you get caught without it. On occasion if I had a fight early day and had to use it I would immediately after the fight while everyone was munching heal potions and doing the fun rp stuff make another. There isn't a limit, except for time, as to how many you can make in a day just how many you can have at any give moment.
I was highly disappointed by growth mutagen. By that point you should be more than comfortable morphing into a troll and then munching your mutagen.
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I'm pretty sure the barbarian trait requires a barbarian level to take it, so you may need to start as a barbarian. It will get you more hit points as well.
Speaking of hit points, you don't need toughness with this build. Like you really don't, especially with as much constitution you're planning on throwing around. I notice you're not grabbing power attack, and you really should as a melee build is stunted without it.
Now, looking at your wisdom, you're setting yourself up to fail a lot of will saves. I know you're gonna be great at not dying from hit point damage, but what if the enemy uses hold person? I would bump it up to 12 by lowering Int to 14 and Cha to 7. Iron Will would also be helpful, as will saves are gonna be poor for your entire career.
Short version: First level barbarian, lose toughness, bump wisdom, grab power attack and iron will.
Jak: Sorry, I might have missed it. What did you think was the capstone ability of alchemists?
I did look at infuse mutagen but decided it was far too expensive for the benefit. I know I can make another mutagen with an hour of down time but I don't know how often that will come up. I'll definately be doing it when able though.
Mergy: Is there something that says one must be a barbarian to take that trait? I couldn't find anything and I did look for it. I understand that it would be a waste until I actually got the ability to rage but I don't really want to start as a barbarian for flavor reasons. I also planned on taking the favored class bonus for that level to get an extra round of rage.
As far as toughness goes I guess the need for it is an objective thing. IMO, if I will be front lining often when only wearing medium armor I think that toughness would be a valuable thing. Regardless of how high the character's HP are more is always better. And being that being survivable is of highest importance to this character build I think I would really rather have it.
I did mention power attack and my reasoning for not taking it. With not using a two handed weapon it gives me a lot less of a bonus than I would otherwise have. I feel that the damage output with the 3 natural attacks with high die size and modifier will be suffient but if you think otherwise I would be interested to hear your opinion on how/where to fit it in.
As for Iron Will and the Will save issue, this is something I recognize as a weakness in the build. But I felt rather than try to throw feats and ability points at fixing it I would try to shore up the weakness in other ways. For one thing, protection from evil is a simple spell that the party's casters should be able to keep around in case of ongoing control shenannigans. Secondly, there are magic items that help with saves and against mind control that would be a high priority for this character. One thing I tend to keep in mind is to not build a character towards being effective against things that happen infrequently. In my experience Will saves do not happen very often. When they do, if they are failed the effects aren't typically serious except in the case of about 3 categories: mind control, hold person type effects and fear (particularly dragon fear). There are simple spells that are effective against each and when faced with these kinds of scenarios it is our groups belief that this largely falls to the party's casters to rememedy if it is so needed.
So short version on the Will saves: While I understand your point I find it personally hard to build the character to the exception rather than the rule. Melee combat is likely going to be far more common until levels where I can afford items to shore up the weakness rather than using feats, ability scores and class features that are not able to be duplicated.
I did, however, consider picking up Dual Mind from Master Chymist but I didn't like the drawback of coming out of mutagenic form on a failed save. It may work well if I chose to go with the Rage Chemist approach though.
I consider eternal potion to be the capstone ability. I find it to be far far better than personal immortality, a good healing ability to late to be of use, or a perfect mutagen.
I don't think you're required, according to raw, to take a trait that is useful to your character at creation. I'd ask your dm to see if he has any requirements there.
Toughness is a little expensive here for a feat imo, but then unless you're running a ragechemist I feel the same way about Iron Will. I use my extracts almost entirely for prebattle buffing. So I keep on hand quite a few heroism spells for saves, and I never forget false life. Toughness nets you an additional 18 hp according to your current build, just shy of a 5% boost, particularly with your given set up 18 extra is nothing to ignore. I just don't know if I'd drop a feat on it when you're already pressed for them.
When planning out your melee attacks, don't forget that thorns is a cheap and easy 1D6 tacked on to every hit that manifests through all polymorph effects.
I would also consider looking over rending claws,apg, and the rend upgrade tree,uc for additional damage. An extra 2d6 plus 1d6 of bleed every round certainly wouldn't hurt.
Imo carrying around a cheap enchanted cestus is a fine idea, but natural attacks on the master chymist reign supreme. If you're not going to use poison and don't care about the resistance consider stacking beastmorph on top of what you have. Granted it isn't going to get very high up in terms of power, but it does snag you free darkvision and scent.
Jak: Thank you for validating my thoughts. On most builds I likely wouldn't get toughness. For tanks though, I feel it is not really a wasted feat unless you have higher priorities. Being survivable is this build's highest priority as I feel the damage output comes naturally from the rest of the class abilities. You are, however, right on the build being feat starved.
Thorns, eh? I assume your refering to Thorn Body? For a 3rd level extract with a short duration I'm not sure thats worth it for only 1d6 extra damage per attack. There are much better 3rd level extracts IMO. Haste, rage and heroism come to mind. Though I supose I could do all 4 eventually.
Rending Claws I did look at but considered I was likely too feat starved to grab it.
I don't know about doing both cestus and natural attacks. Actually, hm... I guess there is no downfall to having a cestus in one hand to make all of his itterive attacks with and then still make his claw and bite attack. Its not very asthetically pleasing though. I think I would prefer to just spend my money on improving his normal modus operandi: natural attacks.
Beastmorph doesn't appeal to me too much. If I wasn't a half-orc that already had darkvision 60' then it would definately be more worth considering. Scent, while a powerful ability when you need it, isn't often used and maybe not worth what is given up. Still might require a talk with my DM to see what would likely be used more often. Kinda depends on the availability, ease of making and amount of downtime required to make poisons.
Mergy: I actually have been thinking more about your suggestions. It might not hurt to drop a few feats and pick up Iron Will, Indomitable Will, Drunken Brawler and Grab Dual Mind down the line. That would give a total of +6 to Will saves, a free reroll 1/day and if in dire straights another reroll but have to change back to his other form. Doing this and going Rage Chemist could be a rather strong build, actually.
I'm going to have to think some more about this. I'm not sure what all I would want to drop for feats. I guess I could drop Fight On as it is eclipsed by his other feats, really. I would like to keep toughness but now that I'm thinking about it he would gain the bonus HP from Drunken Brawler which would sort of replace those lost to toughness anyway. The bonuses leave after the temporary HP are gone though but that could help save against the first hit after using his rage mutagen and an extra round of no penalties is good.
Drunken Brawler is very in-theme for the build as I was planning on having him be a tweaker anyway. He was going to be drunk often and likely a user of more than one drug. The drugs I was likely going to have him make himself.
...this is all something I'm going to have to think on a bit. Keep the ideas flowin, folks! :)
Yeah, thorn body. To make them more efficient mix up all of your primary low level buffs as potions down an amplify elixir followed by alchemical allocation and then buff one, repeat as needed. This allows you to auto extend them for the cost of one 3rd level buff and substitute each 3rd level potion for a 2nd level extract. Combine with pearls of power 2nd level.
Thorn body adds it on each hit dealing an extra 1d6 plus 1 per level. You're looking at 3d6 plus 45 easily from it. It also discourages anyone from poking you in combat, which is going to happen often with your tank set up.
Don't forget that as is you cannot use eternal potion which frees up a discovery slot, or a feat slot, and as such extend potion loses its use somewhat as a level three extract does something almost identical only it works on all potions used during a set interval.
Beastmorph is really only worth it at that low level if you're not going to use poisons. Some of the higher dc ones are very nice and there is no reason you can't poison a few arrows for the party archer.
Jak, I think you need to reread Thorn Body. The 1d6+1/lvl is only when the baddies hit you. On natural attacks it only 1d6 with no plusses. Still it isn't terrible due to the damage return from things hitting you.
Funny you should mention the party archer. My son is playing and he really wants to try out an arcane archer. I'm sure he'd love some poisoned arrows. ;)
Ok, so this is what I came up with after altering the build with some of yous guyses suggestions:
1st: Alchemist 1: Alchemy, Bombs 1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw Anything, Feat: Endurance
2nd: Barbarian 1: Fast Movement, Rage
3rd: Alchemist 2: Discovery: Feral Mutagen, Poison Resistance +2, Poison Use, Feat: Drunken Brawler
4th: Alchemist 3: Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy
5th: Alchemist 4: Discovery: Lingering Spirit, Feat: Iron Will
6th: Alchemist 5: Bomb 3d6, Poison Resistance +4
7th: Alchemist 6: Discovery: Extend Potion, Swift Poisoning, Feat: Die Hard
8th: Alchemist 7: Bomb 4d6
9th: Master Chymist 1: Bomb-Thrower, Mutagenic Form, Mutate 2/day, Feat: Deathless Initiate
10th: Master Chymist 2: Advanced Mutagen: Nimble, Bomb 5d6
11th: Master Chymist 3: Brutality 2, Feat: Power Attack
12th: Master Chymist 4: Advanced Mutagen: Furious Mutagen, Bomb 6d6
13th: Master Chymist 5: Mutate 3/day, Feat: Iron Hide
14th: Master Chymist 6: Advanced Mutagen: Greater Mutagen, Bomb 7d6
15th: Master Chymist 7: Brutality 4, Feat: Deathless Initiate
16th: Master Chymist 8: Advanced Mutagen: Growth Mutagen, Mutate 2/day, Bomb 8d6
17th: Master Chymist 9: Brutality 6, Feat: Extra Discovery: Eternal Potion
18th: Master Chymist 10: Advanced Mutagen: Grand Mutagen, Mutate 5/day, Bomb 9d6
This build would use the Rage Chemist archetype but I decided against the Drunken Brute archetype as I dont think the loss in movement is worth the gain in action economy. I could just drink before the encounter. Or... you know, constantly. ;)
Actually I'm having trouble finding any rules for drinking. So maybe there is no downfall to drinking as per the rules? Or did I just miss it?
by jove you're right, well that is what I get for trying to comment while asleep. I was pulling the numbers from defense potion set on my alchemist/souldrinker and completely forgot that the offense part doesn't match. Don't mind me...
As long as its alcohol instead of some other drug the penalties are the dms to determine based of of frequency rather he gets to choose to see if you have to roll to avoid minor addiction. Which really shouldn't be a problem for you with your rather high fortitude score.
The only problem at present is that I'm pretty sure that Master Chymist levels don't stack with Alchemist levels for snagging all discoveries. I was under the impression that they only stacked for the ones specifically mentioned.
Oh. Right. So you mean that Eternal Potion would never be an option for this build. Hm, yeah, now that you mention it I believe you are correct, sir.
Hm. Well, I guess that leaves his 7th level discovery open and I can choose a new feat in place of his 17th level one.
Also, I have been thinking about Drunken Brawler as compaired to tougness. The benefit I was thinking would be great for Drunken Brawler is the +2 Alchemical bonus to Fort and Will Saves. The problem is that those end when the temporary hit points go away. So long as the character drinks 1/hour during his waking hours the temporary HP are the same as those granted from Toughness. However, it is pretty easy to lose more than the temp hit points from the first hit you take in a fight. Thusly, the bonus on Will saves likely wont be available when having to roll the Will save to avoid ability damage for the Rage Chemist. That being said, I think toughness is likely still better.
Maybe I'll get around to reworking this again tonight. Any suggestions on that 7th level discovery?
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I actually like Drunken Brawler. There's nothing stopping you from 're-fueling' during a lull in combat either. Keep a few extra hip-flasks with you and drain one to get your hit points and saves back. Considering your reflex save is going to be amazing anyway, I think it's a fair trade.
And I still would caution against the Rage Chemist archetype. The standard alchemist is far more balanced: you can still pull off a hulking strength monster, but with far fewer weaknesses and no need for a will save on taking damage.
Well, I can't justify spending 3 feats on upping his Will Save if I don't go Rage Chemist. I do agree with your concern though.
I keep waffling on the idea though. On one hand the bonuses are nice but the drawbacks are so severe that I have to sink feats into offsetting them to the point of it not being an effective use of class abilities/feats. Its so in-theme with the build yet built so poorly. ERG!
I am resurrecting this thread as I have decided to play this character in an upcoming campaign and wanted the brush the dust off the build. I came up with some new ideas too and wanted to post them.
First of all, I want to point out that the party makeup is going to consist of a straight Gunslinger (no archetype), a Witch who desperately wants to use Eat People against both the DM's urging and the PCs telling him we would identify her as a bad guy and kill her if she did so (no particular concept in mind but she wants to find some way to have a Hyena as an Improved Familiar and classically likes to play Charm based characters), and my son who is playing a Halfling Arcane Archer that rides on a Roc Animal Companion. The player with the Witch may get disinvited due to the player's um... personal hygiene issues. We may be picking up another player in addition to/instead of him.
This character won out against against me playing a Dwarven Saurian Shaman tank with an armored Akylosaurus Animal Companion/mount, a Sun Wukong inspired Vanaran Monk, and a natural attacking Monk based Dragon Disciple (with a very complicated heritage). I decided against the Dwarven Saurian Shaman as my son already has the naturey tree-hugger type covered. I decided against the Monk Dragon Desciple as it makes loot division boring due to not getting any weapons or armor from it. It was really down to the Monky Monk and this character and I decided that this character had better roleplaying possibilities that I would very much like to explore.
With that being said I want to post my latest build and then talk about it some:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 10
Taking alternate racial trait:
Shaman's Apprentice Only the most stalwart survive the years of harsh treatment that an apprenticeship to an orc shaman entails. Half-orcs with this trait gain Endurance as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the intimidating trait.
Also taking the Chirurgeon class archetype.
HP: 12
AC: 14 = 10 base +3 armor +1 Dex
BAB: 0
CMD: 13 = 10 base +2 Str +1 Dex
CMB: 12 = 10 base +2 Str
Attack: Cestus +2 1d4+2 19-20 x2 (B or P)
Saves:
Fort: 6 = 2 base +4 Con
Ref: 3 = 2 base +1 Dex
Will: -1 = 0 base -1 Wis
Extracts:
1st: 2/day
Cure Light Wounds
Enlarge Person
Endure Elements
Identify
Bombs: 1d6+2 3/day
Feats:
Endurance (bonus racial)
Diehard (1st)
Brew Potion (bonus)
Throw Anything (bonus)
Mutagen: +4 Str, +2 Natural Armor, +2 Int 10min
Skills:
Craft (alchemy): 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Heal: 3 = 1 rank -1 Wis +3 Class
Knowledge (arcana): 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Knowledge (nature): 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Perception: 3 = 1 rank -1 Wis +3 Class
Spellcraft: 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Equipment:
Studded Leather Armor 25
Cestus 5gp
Alchemist's Kit 25
Healer's Kit 50
Explorer's Outfit (free)
Languages:
Common
Orc
Draconic
Goblin
1st: Alchemist 1: Alchemy, Bombs 1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw Anything, Die Hard (1st)
2nd: Barbarian 1: Fast Movement, Rage
3rd: Alchemist 2: Discovery: Feral Mutagen, Poison Resistance +2, Poison Use, Toughness (3rd)
4th: Alchemist 3: Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy
5th: Alchemist 4: Discovery: Lingering Spirit, Power Attack (5th)
6th: Alchemist 5: Bomb 3d6, Poison Resistance +4
7th: Alchemist 6: Discovery: Spontaneous Healing, Swift Poisoning, Extra Discovery: Healing Touch (7th)
8th: Alchemist 7: Bomb 4d6
9th: Master Chymist 1: Bomb-Thrower, Mutagenic Form, Mutate 2/day, Deathless Initiate (9th)
10th: Master Chymist 2: Advanced Mutagen: Nimble, Bomb 5d6
11th: Master Chymist 3: Brutality 2, Ironhide (11th)
12th: Master Chymist 4: Advanced Mutagen: Furious Mutagen, Bomb 6d6
13th: Master Chymist 5: Mutate 3/day, Deathless Master (13th)
14th: Master Chymist 6: Advanced Mutagen: Greater Mutagen, Bomb 7d6
15th: Master Chymist 7: Brutality 4, Extra Rage (15th)
16th: Master Chymist 8: Advanced Mutagen: Growth Mutagen, Mutate 2/day, Bomb 8d6
17th: Master Chymist 9: Brutality 6, Raging Vitality (17th)
18th: Master Chymist 10: Advanced Mutagen: Grand Mutagen, Mutate 5/day, Bomb 9d6
Alright, so the biggest change is that I found the AWESOME trait Shaman's Apprentice which gives the Endurance feat in exchange for the Half-orc's Intimidating trait. For this build that is priceless as it allows me to get Die Hard at first level and moves my other feats up a level at least. I can fit in Toughness and Power Attack both before getting Deathless Initiate which is the basis of this build.
I know that people love the Vivisectionist archetype but I am not a big fan. By RAW the sneak attack progression doesn't continue into Master Chymist. It isn't so much that bombs are pivotal to this build but neither are sneak attacks. And the bombs give him something to do for both ranged attacks and when not using his Mutagen. Also, this character needs to contribute to the healing for the group and the best archetype for that is Chirurgeon. Since the only thing he loses is poison use (which I didn't intend on using often if at all) and poison resistance/immunity (which isn't a big deal due to his redonkulous Fort saves) he doesn't really lose much. Oh, yeah, I forgot to remove those abilities from the build above, but you get the idea.
I am considering the Drunken Brute archetype but I am uncertain if I want to give up the 10ft of movement for drinking potions/alchohol as a move action. The other option is to take the trait Accelerated Drinker which does the same thing. The problem with that is that is a combat trait which would preclude getting the Berzerker of the Society trait. And I wanted that one. So yeah. I'm still up in the air on that one.
Enlarge Person is definitely going to be an often used extract and he will likely be brewing up some potions of it in his downtime as well.
The blaring weakness has got to be his horrid Will save. I'm not really willing to throw a bunch of resources at it, though. I don't wish to spare a feat on Iron Will as he has pretty much every feat spoken for already. I may pick up a trait that gives +1 Will, though. And with future equipment upgrades I will definitely be looking at improving his Will save. That may be the one spot I will have to depend on my party for help with though.
Oh, and I thought of a name. Also, let me point out that I plan on playing him as a sophisticated schizophrenic lush as his (currently) dominant passive personality while he changes into an aggressive lude barbaric sociopath as his alter ego. His passive form will break most Orcish stereotypes with him being a doctor who wears a tuxedo over his armor, a top hat, carries a cane and possibly even uses a monocle. As he progresses through levels his aggressive personality will battle for dominant control and eventually win out with him being in mutagenic form more often than in his normal form.
So his name?... Dr. Ezekiel Z. Killian.
His alter ego's name? EZ Kill. aka, the Big EZ, aka Ez, aka Sir rips baddy's faces off when he should be dead.
Whachta think?! :)
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I really like Shaman's Apprentice. My wife's druid character started with Diehard as well, and she's managed to use it in a few fights now.
Is there a big reason he needs a 10 charisma? If you can, switch it with wisdom to improve that will save. Also, since you've got Diehard from first level, you don't need Orc Ferocity. Switch it for a Sacred Tattoo for +1 to all of your saves (as a luck bonus too, so you're now forever immune to pugwampis).
I don't see the need for Toughness. You're playing with a ridiculously high constitution score, and your primary levels will be d8, eventually d10. If you pick up Power Attack at 3, you have room for Iron Will at 5, making you a lot more of a juggernaut. I know you want the highest health possible, but there is a point where it won't matter so much, especially since you're building him to be able to fight at negative hit points.
Remember, you're fine if you lose health. You're not so fine if you get dominated, put to sleep, or start dancing.
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I'm curious about something. I have never played an Alchemist, but when I was playing around making characters, I started to think Master Chymist maybe wasn't as good as I thought.
I know there are bomb throwing alchemists and whatnot, but my conception is a rip your head off Mr. Hyde character.
I don't remember my exact thinking on the Master Chymist, I do know I was upset I couldn't get Eternal Potion.
Just saying, if you went straight Alchemist would he necessarily be much worse at melee?
Look up Vivisectionist/Beastmorph builds...you can make an Alchemist do almost anything you want.
ashiel made me want to play a preservationist. i call him ash catch'em lol
The idea behind having a 10 Cha was because I wanted him to be a classy sort of Half-orc. While I know that mostly has to do with roleplay and being a snappy dresser I figured it would be good to have the stats match the concept as well. But you might be right. The Charisma literally does nothing for him. And I could play it off as while being a sophisticated sort he doesn't have much concept for which sophisticated topics are taboo in which circles. For instance, he could bring up something about how while the princess may be attractive on the outside she has all the same guts on the inside. Same spleen, same bladder, same sphincter, same... I could see it now. Someone in the party could smack him, "You can't say sphincter in the company of nobility!" He would be all, "Huh? Why can I not? It is a simple medical term. How else should I refer to her..." *SMACK*
Also good suggestion on the Ferocity thing. I was going to switch it out but didn't know what to go for. The ability for sacred tattoo was good but I didn't particularly care for having a tattoo either. Now that I think of it though, I likely could work it into his back story. Hm.
Those two changes shore up his weak Will save by +2. I'm still not willing to drop a feat on Iron Will. However, if you have any suggestions for equipment that could help then I'm all ears. A Mind Blank item is quiet a ways off and until then I think I will likely be relying on resistance gear and for the party Witch to carry a Protection From spell.
Also, don't forget the bonus to Will saves from Raging.
Orc Boyz: What do you think of tattoos? Wait... I think you got something... its just on your face there. Lemme see if I can get that off...
Any other suggestions?
I have started with making some character art for this guy and hope to have it ready by the time the game starts in a couple weeks. I can also keep the thread updated on his progress if anyone is interested.
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So, I thought I would post my character background for you all to enjoy(/hate).
Dr. Ezekiel Z. Killian had a very sordid past, not all of which he is familiar with. His first memories were living with his Uncle Erdrick. Whether the memories that came before that were simply too early to remember or repressed is left to debate. Either way they may be better left unknown to him. That never stopped him from asking about his youth though.
The questions didn't start coming up until he entered grade school where he noticed that he didn't look like the other kids; a fact that the other kids didn't mind pointing out on a regular basis. You see, Ezekial was a Half-Orc and Half-Orcs are really not accepted in any society. Sure, his Uncle Erdrick made his stay as comfortable as possible while he was there but that didn't stop the uneasy feeling that he got from the other children his age. He didn't have a lot to fear from them though as he was larger than them and no serious conflicts ever happened.
Ezekiel spent his early years curious about his past. His uncle always answered his questions but not all of the details were given. Yes, his mother was a human, a noble woman even, but he wasn't told that he was the product of a brutal rape. Sure, his father was an Orc, a renowned Shaman even, but he wasn't told that he was also renowned as a brutal megalomaniac focused on creating a powerful war bred super race. And those tattoos he had were a symbol of his tribe, they were there to show he would grow to be a powerful warrior, but he didn't need to know that they were ritualistic marks placed there by his own sick father that labeled him a mutant abomination of a child that would have been as equally feared as respected had he been left in his tribe.
There was much of Ezekiel's past that he did not know. The true story is that his father was the highest ranking shaman in the Pureblood orc clan: a tribe of orcs that was known for breeding with other races to make their own clan more powerful. While their methods were unorthodox, arcane and often brutal they were also effective. Their tribe carried ogre, human, giant and it is even rumored dragon blood. The genetic donors were typically unwilling and coercion was not often the means to their donation. Ezekial's father, Kromgar, was known for performing brutal rites to infuse the essence of the “donor” into the “host” mother. The child would be infused with the best characteristics of both races.
This was the goal of the Pureblood raid on a human village where Ezekiel's mother, Dutchess Ambriel Killian, was taken for this breeding ritual. Ambriel's village was not easily taken and this was in no small part to Ambriel herself as she preferred to lead from the front lines. Unfortunately for her this was one of the qualities she was selected for. After the process was complete Ambriel was kept on in the tribe for future evaluation but was kept from her child. The infant Ezekiel was put through future painful rites and rituals that left the child scarred over most of his body with the goal of enhancing his abilities.
The outcome of these rights was never seen by Kromgar, though for Ambriel's family was not about to leave her to an orish tribe. Though it took quiet a long time to organize Lord Erdrick manage to assemble a small army to assault the orcish burrow and take back his family. When Ambriel was found she insisted on finding her child as the fault of her child's lineage was not her child's; her child was innocent. And although it was not a birth of her choosing, she would not revoke her responsibilities as a parent. With this noble gesture being conveyed, Lord Erdrick insisted upon taking up this spur of the moment mission himself and promised to ensure the well being of her child so long as Dutchess Ambriel was taken with the rest of his battalion to safety.
Dutchess Ambriel was not heard of again after that as the battalion that she was traveling with was attacked shortly after escaping the orc burrow. While there were survivors found, Ambriel was not amoung them. She was also not among the dead, though. Her whereabouts are currently unknown. Ezekiel and Lord Erdrick, of course, made it out safely and Erdrick has had the opportunity and responsibility to carry out with his final promise to his sister by raising her child.
Ezekiel has had the opportunity for a rich childhood with access to things most children didn't have. Even as a lad he had a keen interest in anatomy and alchemy. Although these interests at first worried his Uncle Erdrick, the lad's only outward motivation seemed to be altruistic in nature so he didn't mind letting the child learn as much as he could. When it was discovered that Ezekiel was a bit of a prodigy in the field a tutor was quickly found for him and his skills advanced quickly. New doctors, alchemists and scientists were always a great boon to both the family and the city so his study was encouraged and Ezekiel's mind was enriched.
Unfortunately, his Uncle Erdrick was already past his prime when he rescued him and his age wasn't about to slow down due to his claimed responsibilities. By the time Ezekiel was a teenager Erdrick was already suffering from old age. While Ezekiel could manage tending to his foster father he could not stop the aging process and it wasn't soon before Erdrick was laying on his deathbed. This was a turbulent time for Ezekiel as local law prohibited Erdrick from declaring Ezekiel his heir and it was no secret that the town had no love for his half-breed foster child. While Ezekiel tried every legal method to protect his family's estate some of the local populace was more than happy to escalate the matter to the physically aggressive level.
Ezekiel refused to leave the property without a fight so the fight was brought to him. He took up arms; a cestus given to him by his father that was taken from the orc tribe he was liberated from and his armor that was made for him for martial training. Still, he did not wish to fight if it could be avoided but the decision was taken from him when some of the village's teens brought the fight to him. Though he protected himself, he did not wish to hurt them … at least not until he had endured enough of their verbal insults and was inflicted with some grievous wounds. Wounds that should have left him dead.
Stories were told later by the victims of the attack that Ezekiel had transformed into some raging monstrous brute. It wasn't just figurative though, the victims swore that it was an actual physical transformation. This brute tore deep furrows in it's attacker's flesh, left chunks of meat missing from their limbs and even managed to rip a leg cleanly free from one of his attackers as that was the handle by which he was using him as a weapon. The brute got away and no one really cared to pursue it beyond that.
Ezekiel had managed to get away with a few meager belongings from his past life but the knowledge and opportunities he has taken with him has proven priceless. Before passing away his Uncle Erdrick told him of the unknown fate of his mother and about the parts of his past that he had long since repressed or forgotten. While the knowledge he had gained under his apprenticeship has served to put food on his plate in his travels, the recent knowledge he obtained from his Uncle seems to have awakened an unnatural hunger for self perfection. He has managed to suppress this megalomaniac drive so far but he has found that the pull is becoming stronger. Lately, he has settled for controlling the driving into constructive altruistic directions. The problem is that he is running low on funds to continue his research.
When passing by a signpost he saw an advertisement for a possible means of solution to his dilemma and has decided to act upon it. While he has not been overly interested in adventuring to pay his bills it has become harder to find consistent work as a traveling physician and he finds himself strangely driven to accept this proposal. Inwardly Ezekiel is a bit concerned about why he has become interested in this new line of work. This concern is overshadowed by his unnatural drive to advance his research in alchemy which has triggered the realization that he may have schizophrenia. He is further troubled because the voice in his head that is providing this drive he has realized is not his own; neither is the form that it takes when it's needs are not met frequently enough.
Oh, and here is a final draft for my character sheet:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8
Taking alternate racial trait:
Shaman's Apprentice Only the most stalwart survive the years of harsh treatment that an apprenticeship to an orc shaman entails. Half-orcs with this trait gain Endurance as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the intimidating trait.
Also switching out the normal Orc Ferocity racial trait for the Sacred Tattoo racial trait giving a +1 luck bonus to all saves.
Taking the Chirurgeon class archetype.
HP: 13
AC: 14 = 10 base +3 armor +1 Dex
BAB: 0
CMD: 13 = 10 base +2 Str +1 Dex
CMB: 12 = 10 base +2 Str
Attack: Cestus +2 1d4+2 19-20 x2 (B or P)
Saves:
Fort: 6 = 2 base +4 Con
Ref: 3 = 2 base +1 Dex
Will: -1 = 0 base -1 Wis
Extracts:
1st: 2/day
Cure Light Wounds
Enlarge Person
Endure Elements
Identify
Bombs: 1d6+2 3/day
Feats:
Endurance (bonus racial)
Diehard (1st)
Brew Potion (bonus)
Throw Anything (bonus)
Mutagen: +4 Str, +2 Natural Armor, +2 Int 10min
Skills:
Craft (alchemy): 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Heal: 3 = 1 rank +3 Class
Knowledge (arcana): 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Knowledge (nature): 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Perception: 4 = 1 rank +3 Class
Spellcraft: 6 = 1 rank +2 Int +3 Class
Equipment:
Studded Leather Armor 25
Cestus 5gp
Alchemist's Kit 25
Healer's Kit 50
Explorer's Outfit (free)
Backpack (5)
50ft. Hemp Roap (1)
Grappling Hook (1)
5 Vials (5)
2 Gallons of Ale (.5)
4 days trail rations (2)
Soap (.5)
Flint and Steel (1)
Belt Pouch (1)
2 Scroll Cases (2)
10 candles (.1)
Hammer (.5)
5 Pitons (.5)
Ink (8)
Shaving Kit (.15)
which leaves 16 gold, 7 silver, 5 copper
Languages:
Common
Orc
Draconic
Goblin
My planned build:
1st: Alchemist 1: Alchemy, Bombs 1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw Anything, Die Hard (1st)
2nd: Barbarian 1: Fast Movement, Rage
3rd: Alchemist 2: Discovery: Feral Mutagen, Poison Resistance +2, Poison Use, Toughness (3rd)
4th: Alchemist 3: Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy
5th: Alchemist 4: Discovery: Lingering Spirit, Power Attack (5th)
6th: Alchemist 5: Bomb 3d6, Poison Resistance +4
7th: Alchemist 6: Discovery: Spontaneous Healing, Swift Poisoning, Extra Discovery: Healing Touch (7th)
8th: Alchemist 7: Bomb 4d6
9th: Master Chymist 1: Bomb-Thrower, Mutagenic Form, Mutate 2/day, Deathless Initiate (9th)
10th: Master Chymist 2: Advanced Mutagen: Nimble, Bomb 5d6
11th: Master Chymist 3: Brutality 2, Ironhide (11th)
12th: Master Chymist 4: Advanced Mutagen: Furious Mutagen, Bomb 6d6
13th: Master Chymist 5: Mutate 3/day, Deathless Master (13th)
14th: Master Chymist 6: Advanced Mutagen: Greater Mutagen, Bomb 7d6
15th: Master Chymist 7: Brutality 4, Extra Rage (15th)
16th: Master Chymist 8: Advanced Mutagen: Growth Mutagen, Mutate 2/day, Bomb 8d6
17th: Master Chymist 9: Brutality 6, Raging Vitality (17th)
18th: Master Chymist 10: Advanced Mutagen: Grand Mutagen, Mutate 5/day, Bomb 9d6
I am still undecided as whether to take Drunken Brute archetype or not for his Barbarian level. I'm not certain that losing the 10ft. of movement is worth being able to drink potions/alcohol as a move action when I could instead just take the Accelerated Drinker trait. The problem is that by doing so I would be unable to take the Berzerker of the Society trait which I wanted to take. It is a tough decision and may rest on if my DM uses campaign traits which he said he would tell us about soon.
I have also been thinking about equipment priorities for the future. Anyone have any suggestions there? Does anyone know of any equipment that works well with the theme of remaining fighting even into the negatives aside from Con increasing gear?
No equipment suggestions? Man, I could probably use some help here. I have never played an Alchemist before let alone a melee Alchemist. Aside from the typical defensive gear and things to buff natural attacks I don't have a lot of ideas on gear.
I would be lying if I said that my ulterior motive for posting this wasn't to bump the thread, but I thought I would also post some character art for Dr. Ezekiel Z. Killian because people might actually want to see it.
So here it is.
I assure you that the actual image looks much better than the scanned image. Much darker and richer for one. As for the art, well, I realize that I am an amateur. So take it easy on the criticism. ;)
A bit. What did you think of it?
I considered it but I like to keep my art more personal. This is only the second time I have ever shared my art on the internet and the other time was in a PBP game.
By the way, had my first session tonight. It went very well. Diehard has already paid off at first level. I got down to -4. Twice. Was still kicking ass both times. I actually took down the BBEG with a bomb (after the rest of the party laid down some smack too).
We couldn't save the NPC when he opened the Gobo's chest and sprung the poison trap all over himself. So sad. I tried. Meh... free loot! >:D
I have a physical description of the character that I'll post tonight too.