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Time after time, players who enjoy their monk characters have been disappointed as less expensive fixes to the amulet of mighty fists become available and then are rapidly corrected to the point where they are almost useless. The thing that seems to stick in the craw of the developers is that the monk is intended to be an unarmed fighter—someone who does not rely upon a weapon. And so far, all of these fixes have been weapons.
But perhaps there is another Path that can taken (pun intended). We already have the amulet of mighty fists and part of the reason behind the extreme price on that item is that it is able to be used on all of a creature’s natural weapons as well as unarmed strikes. And that is a legitimate issue that needs to be addressed. We also have, in core, bracers of armor and the robes of the archmagi. Neither item is armor, but provides an armor bonus. Heck, the bracers can be enchanted with special armor properties!
Using the robes of the archmagi as inspiration and a starting point, I then asked myself what we really need in this item. At its heart, these fighting gloves (for want of a better name) need to provide a bonus to hit and damage for unarmed strikes. There is a mechanic for doing just that in Pathfinder—weapon enhancements. In this instance, however, we are applying that mechanic to a wondrous item that consumes a slot. It can be done, ala amulet of the mighty fists, but for this item we are going to make it an enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes only—no natural weapons. That lets us keep the price comparable to a single magic item. We also go the opposite route of the amulet, by ensuring that the fighting gloves cannot receive special weapon properties, only the base enhancement bonuses.
As leather gloves, this item is not eligible for special materials such as cold iron, alchemical silver, or adamantine—and that is good. It is okay. Remember, as the enhancement bonus increases, the item is able to overcome specific types of damage reduction: cold iron and silver at +3, adamantine at +4, and alignment-based DR at +5.
Then I started taking a closer look at those robes. The enhancement bonus on caster level checks made me think about providing an enhancement bonus on the DC of Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm attacks. But that quickly got very expensive, especially for the lower bonus gloves. So what I did was divide the item into three, a normal item, an improved item, and a greater item; the improved and greater adding first Stunning Fist and then Quivering Palm.
Overall, I think these items will work and work well in providing a bit of oomph for monks and other unarmed fighters. They are not—in my own opinion—overpowered, outlandish, or over the top. But they provide a much needed tool in the arsenal of a monk, and they allow the monk character to use an amulet of natural armor as easily as any other character. And without sacrificing an enhancement bonus to his unarmed attacks and damage. Instead, he can get an amulet of mighty fists to provide those special weapons properties everyone always wants. It is now his choice completely.
And isn’t that what Pathfinder is all about: choice?
As always, any feedback, comments, critiques, and criticisms that you have would be appreciated. Thank you.
Master Arminas
Monk’s Fighting Gloves
Aura: Faint (+1), Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 2,000 (+1), 8,000 (+2), 18,000 (+3), 32,000 (+4), 50,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage.
Monk’s Fighting Gloves, Improved
Aura: Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 22,000 (+2), 33,000 (+3), 47,000 (+4), 65,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage.
Monk’s Fighting Gloves, Greater
Aura: Moderate (+3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 48,000 (+3), 62,000 (+4), 80,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. If worn by a character with the Quivering Palm special ability, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Quivering Palm. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage.
Nothing?
The same DC as the attack bonus would get real expensive, real quick. Deconstructing the robe of the archmagi shows that the +2 enhancement bonus on caster level checks there costs a total of 15,000 gp; so 10,000 gp plus an additional 5,000 gp for being a multiple different property on a slotted item.
Isn't a magic weapon a must have item for a fighter? Or a ranger? Or a barbarian? Or paladin? And already, any monk that wants to fight unarmed has to suck it up and by the amulet of mighty fists. The price of which includes the escalation because it can be used with natural weapons. Plus, nearly every monk build I have ever seen buy's monk's robes. Just like every wizard eventually purchases or crafts a blessed book.
As to the name, it's like the monk's robes. Monks (and unarmed fighter archetypes) get the best use of this item, but it isn't limited to them by any means.
But thanks for the comment and the points that you raised, LovesTha.
Master Arminas
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I like it, but what I always felt for this type of item is that I would have it take up TWO slots (hands AND feet) since monks often, by flavor, use punches and kicks.
On another note, I also believe that the cost should be a little higher because you are not subject to disarms.
Just things to consider.
I like it, but what I always felt for this type of item is that I would have it take up TWO slots (hands AND feet) since monks often, by flavor, use punches and kicks.
On another note, I also believe that the cost should be a little higher because you are not subject to disarms.
Just things to consider.
I quite agree with that but I would also say that having both amulet of mighty fists and this item would make monks over time over powered. I would suggest that this items do not stack but do overlap.
As far as stacking with an AMF you're concerned about the enhancement bonus stacking than I think that solves itself. Enhacement bonuses wouldn't stack anyways, regardless of it coming from two sources.
If it's an issue with total cost consider that a +5 AMF and a +5 Monk's Gloves (first tier) would be 175,000 compared to a +10 weapon which costs 200,000. A mere difference of 25k.
At +4 for both the gloves and amulet you have it costing 112k, compared to the +8 weapon costing 128k
at +3 for both you have it costing 63k, compared to the +6 weapon costing 72k
+2 for amulet+gloves 28k vs +4 weapon 32k
+1 amulet+gloves 7 vs +2 weapon for 8k
At any given level range is the cost difference really so large as to be too much of an issue? Mayhaps, but in that case it would take little more than a bit of tweaking (if you increased each price by 50% as a sort of misslotted penalty you would be at the same costs as the weapon, though i realize there are certainly more issues than i bring up).
Of course this is looking at them as if they were being scaled up dependent on the level of the other. One could argue if you didn't grade them up evenly you'd come out with some vastly different numbers (+1 amulet with +5 gloves equals out to 55k, compared to the +6 weapon's 72k, and a +5 amulet with +1 gloves would come out to 127k vs that same 72k.)
Beyond that there are the complications inherent in having a magic weapon that doesn't have to downsides of being an actual held/manufactured weapon (honestly I don't see this being any more of an issue than the amulet would have presented initially)
It's certainly an admirable idea, and one I wish to see expanded upon. If people are willing to continue to post constructively on the matter perhaps we can find something that fits everyone's desires (not to imply that your initial idea doesn't already fit your ideal perfectly, Master Arminas, and with that i apologize if it appears that i've gone too far with my statements on the matter.)
Indrajit, don't worry none. Exactly the type of constructive criticism I was looking for. I will admit, I didn't fully consider the price implications between the AoMF and this item. And that is a concern that needs to be addressed.
I originally considered weapon price x 1.5 for the fighting gloves; i.e. +1 (3,000 gp), +2 (12,000 gp), +3 (27,000 gp), +4 (37,500 gp), and +5 (75,000 gp), which is still less than the AoMF (for 'tier 1' gloves, of course).
ItoSaithWebb, I would have no problem with them not overlapping. I'm not quite certain of exactly how to word it, however.
Aeshurra, weapons are normally slotless. These items would take up the gloves slot. I consider that to pretty well balance out that they can't be disarmed. After all, you can't disarm a regular unarmed strike anyway, right?
Thanks for the ideas, folks.
Master Arminas
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For the disarm point: But unarmed strike is not (usually) easily enhanceable. I think the balance issue was that monks have scale-able damage.
I have always wanted a variety of ways to simulate the amulet of mighty fists, mostly because I didn't want the Bruce Leroy/Steven Seagal monks medallion.
I actually made a minor artifact in the Golarion setting that was created by the wizard monks of Cyrusian in ancient Thassilon. It was a five-piece item that was designed for multiclassed monks.
If you are interested, I have it on Google Docs, I can share it with you.
Well, it depends on whether or not your party has either a wizard, a sorcerer, a cleric, or a druid in it. Either greater magic weapon or greater magic fang will enhance those unarmed strikes quite easily (for a monk). And both have a duration of at least 5 hours. Admittedly, it means that the spellcaster has to give up one of their 3rd-level spells (and spells known for a sorcerer), but this is a spell that clerics and druids especially normally have available.
Sure, Aeshuura, love to see it.
Master Arminas
And both have a duration of at least 5 hours. Admittedly, it means that the spellcaster has to give up one of their 3rd-level spells (and spells known for a sorcerer), but this is a spell that clerics and druids especially normally have available.
Plus, supplying the caster with a pearl of power means he might not be giving up the slot anyway (not that a 3rd level PoP is inexpensive).
I like the gloves. I've always felt that the basic version should have been available a long time ago. That said, the off-slot cost penalty is probably going to be required, and seems to put the costs closer to raw weapon enhancements when used in combination with the AoMF to stack enhancements.
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Huh, I always thought that like Heroism/Greater Heroism, the Greater duration decreased. That is an impressive jump to an hour/level. I stand corrected sir.
Though, it specifically states in Magic Weapon that the spell will not affect unarmed strikes, so it would have to be a Ranger or Druid to give you the bonus.
Here is the link for you to peruse. It was inspired by the Armor of Mars from the Fatal Fury Movie.
Okay, then. Here are the adjusted prices for multiplying out the base enhancement by 1.5, as suggested above.
Monk’s Fighting Gloves
Aura: Faint (+1), Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 3,000 (+1), 12,000 (+2), 27,000 (+3), 48,000 (+4), 75,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage.
Monk’s Fighting Gloves, Improved
Aura: Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 27,000 (+2), 42,000 (+3), 63,000 (+4), 90,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage.
Monk’s Fighting Gloves, Greater
Aura: Moderate (+3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 57,000 (+3), 78,000 (+4), 105,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. If worn by a character with the Quivering Palm special ability, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Quivering Palm. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage.
This gives a price for stacking the gloves and AoMF at:
+1 gloves/+1 AoMF: 8,000 gp (vs. 8,000 gp for +2 weapon)
+1 gloves/+2 AoMF: 23,000 gp (vs. 18,000 gp for +3 weapon)
+1 gloves/+3 AoMF: 48,000 gp (vs. 32,000 gp for +4 weapon)
+1 gloves/+4 AoMF: 83,000 gp (vs. 50,000 gp for +5 weapon)
+1 gloves/+5 AoMF: 128,000 gp (vs. 72,000 gp for +6 weapon)
+2 gloves/+1 AoMF: 17,000 gp (vs. 18,000 gp for +3 weapon)
+2 gloves/+2 AoMF: 32,000 gp (vs. 32,000 gp for +4 weapon)
+2 gloves/+3 AoMF: 57,000 gp (vs. 50,000 gp for +5 weapon)
+2 gloves/+4 AoMF: 92,000 gp (vs. 72,000 gp for +6 weapon)
+2 gloves/+5 AoMF: 137,000 gp (vs. 98,000 gp for +7 weapon)
+3 gloves/+1 AoMF: 32,000 gp (vs. 32,000 gp for +4 weapon)
+3 gloves/+2 AoMF: 47,000 gp (vs. 50,000 gp for +5 weapon)
+3 gloves/+3 AoMF: 72,000 gp (vs. 72,000 gp for +6 weapon)
+3 gloves/+4 AoMF: 107,000 gp (vs. 98,000 gp for +7 weapon)
+3 gloves/+5 AoMF: 152,000 gp (vs. 128,000 gp for +8 weapon)
+4 gloves/+1 AoMF: 53,000 gp (vs. 50,000 gp for +5 weapon)
+4 gloves/+2 AoMF: 68,000 gp (vs. 72,000 gp for +6 weapon)
+4 gloves/+3 AoMF: 93,000 gp (vs. 98,000 gp for +7 weapon)
+4 gloves/+4 AoMF: 128,000 gp (vs. 128,000 gp for +8 weapon)
+4 gloves/+5 AoMF: 173,000 gp (vs. 162,000 gp for +9 weapon)
+5 gloves/+1 AoMF: 80,000 gp (vs. 72,000 gp for +6 weapon)
+5 gloves/+2 AoMF: 95,000 gp (vs. 98,000 gp for +7 weapon)
+5 gloves/+3 AoMF: 120,000 gp (vs. 128,000 gp for +8 weapon)
+5 gloves/+4 AoMF: 155,000 gp (vs. 162,000 gp for +9 weapon)
+5 gloves/+5 AoMF: 200,000 gp (vs. 200,000 gp for +10 weapon)
I have bolded the line entries where the combined price of the gloves and amulet are equal to or less than an equivalent weapon. The savings are not that much, but for certain combinations it becomes much more expensive.
All this is for the basic fighting gloves, not improved or greater.
So, how does this version look?
Master Arminas
Huh, I always thought that like Heroism/Greater Heroism, the Greater duration decreased. That is an impressive jump to an hour/level. I stand corrected sir.
Though, it specifically states in Magic Weapon that the spell will not affect unarmed strikes, so it would have to be a Ranger or Druid to give you the bonus.
Here is the link for you to peruse. It was inspired by the Armor of Mars from the Fatal Fury Movie.
Yes, normally Greater Magic Weapon will not affect unarmed strikes. But for the monk, reread the character class.
CRD Page 46:
Unarmed Strike: ...A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
And I will be taking a look at that link!
Master Arminas
Very nice, Aeshuura. One minor point: did you mean to add an additional bonus on CMB? You are already giving unarmed strikes an enhancement bonus. Now, if unarmed strikes can be used to perform a combat maneuver, then you automatically add in the enhancement bonus (and any feats that increase the attack roll) to your CMB. Bull rush, disarm, grapple, and trip are all combat maneuvers that can be performed unarmed, and would then qualify for the bonus to CMB.
This is just like a fighter with a rapier performing a disarm; he adds the enhancement bonus of the rapier to CMB AND his weapons training (if rapier is in one of the groups) AND any Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus feats for the rapier.
Master Arminas
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Very nice, Aeshuura. One minor point: did you mean to add an additional bonus on CMB? You are already giving unarmed strikes an enhancement bonus. Now, if unarmed strikes can be used to perform a combat maneuver, then you automatically add in the enhancement bonus (and any feats that increase the attack roll) to your CMB. Bull rush, disarm, grapple, and trip are all combat maneuvers that can be performed unarmed, and would then qualify for the bonus to CMB.
This is just like a fighter with a rapier performing a disarm; he adds the enhancement bonus of the rapier to CMB AND his weapons training (if rapier is in one of the groups) AND any Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus feats for the rapier.
Master Arminas
The bonus to attack does indeed affect disarm, trip and sunder, but as I understand it, does NOT affect bull rush, grapple, overrun, etc. So for disarm, trip, and sunder, the enhancement bonus to attack stands. As a GM, I would not allow it to go for all CMs, just the ones that are done with strikes. (Since Weapon Focus differentiates strikes and grapples, one does not automatically affect the other, I would put grapple on the outs.)
Of course this is just my interpretation based on wording in various books.
As for the monk unarmed strike... Dang... and I am playing a monk too! I should learn my stuff better! :p
Why would it not affect bull rush or grapple? In both instances you are actually making an unarmed attack (if not strike). I might well be wrong in rules-as-written (especially since I am relatively new to Pathfinder) but it seems counter-intuitive. Overrun, I could see. But the other two . . . I'm on the edge here.
Master Arminas
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I would say, (because I do not have actual reference material in front of me) that I think that by making it all encompassing like that gives too much for one feat, and likewise for one enhancement bonus.
Weapons do not benefit from the bonuses, so it stands to reason that to allow it to affect grapple and bull rush might tip the balance a little too much.
However, that being said, I could see it being a house rule in your game. Because, as is stated in the Core Rulebook. These rules are intended to be guidelines for you to use, and can disregard them as a GM if you choose.