Never seen such problems with monks either, myself-- a monk can commit violations of his/her usual alignment on a pretty regular basis, so long as they keep making up for it in other ways-- basically, so long as they don't go far enough to result in a voluntary or involuntary change of alignment, they're still a monk.
The Paladin's problem, such as it still is in any reasonable treatment of the Paladin's code, restrictions, etc, is that the Paladin becomes an ex-Paladin for any knowingly/willful evil act, or any (serious) violation of his/her code.... a much more frequent, easily crossed issue, than the long hard slide it usually takes towards a change of alignment.
The RAW is pretty clear. Breaking any of their code causes them to fall. It doesn't have to be a serious violation, but a violation at all. See Ex-Paladins.
But hey, I've not said once that following the RAW was the "right" way to do anything. That's why I also think that it's wise to simply overlook some of the associates restrictions, so that a Paladin can exist in a party with non-Paladins more easily (notice I didn't say non-good or even evil characters, but non-Paladins).
(Ashiel-- BTW-- promised reply to your other posts made yesterday. I'll presume the discussion's over and done if I don't see a response to it.)
Thanks. I've also got the good & evil thread you asked me to respond to open in another tab, and will try to get to it soon. :)
I suppose it has become a sad sad thing indeed, when even our fantasy heroes are rarely, if ever, heroic.
True.
I tend to play Paladins when I am in the mood to be 'the good guy' out to do good deeds and rescue damsels etc. When played with a 'be a good guy' mindset, the 'problems' tend to disappear.
The codes are pretty easy to follow, and indeed it can be a fun game when presented with a few foils in the party.
*blinks*
Studied medieval history a bit, I did. The knights of medieval Europe, depending on which group/order and such, did have some pretty hard core codes of honor (behavior) in their day-- but because of the way the Catholic Church felt about suicide... No, suicide was right out. On the other hand, taking on suicidal tasks, standing and fighting to the death against utterly impossible odds, and that sort of thing, was completely acceptable. You were NOT allowed to kill yourself though-- you had to get someone else to do it to you.For that matter, the kinds of weapons-training and the sophistication of fighting techniques in the Middle Ages were every bit as complex, effective and well-developed as anything you can find in the Japanese/Chinese/other-Asian Martial Arts... and the dedicated training on the part of professional fighting men (such as Knights, when their primary duty was being warriors) was every bit as hardcore as the training Samurai underwent-- the difference is, when Europe developed all kinds of nasty technology that rendered swords and such hopelessly outdated and ineffective on the battlefield, the European cultures didn't bother to preserve and maintain knowledge of all of those old, outmoded techniques... Japan and other Asian countries held on to all of these ancient traditions even after picking up guns and modern tactics, which is why we know about those martial arts, but not the ancient European martial arts.
Basically this was what I was getting at.
I, too, studied medieval history a bit, and, while I know the Catholic teachings, unless three professors at two universities (one community college and one private), two (or three? MORE THAN A DECADE! GAH!) books (neither of which I have in my possession) and Cracked.com (the least reliable source, and sadly the only one I have available to me at this time - note that the relevant link within the article takes me somewhere I don't recognize... I wouldn't recommend it) are incorrect - and I totally admit that they very well can be! -, they did, in fact, have room for honorable suicide. THAT SAID, it has been far, far too long since I've done my research and only vague memories allow me to recall that (which were rekindled by the article in question) so I may be incorrect, and admit my potential error this.
Nonetheless, the spiritual elements of medieval warfare have basically been ignored while the Bushido has been played up due more or less to publicity.
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...they did, in fact, have room for honorable suicide. THAT SAID, it has been far, far too long since I've done my research and only vague memories allow me to recall that (which were rekindled by the article in question) so I may be incorrect, and admit my potential error this.
Nonetheless, the spiritual elements of medieval warfare have basically been ignored while the Bushido has been played up due more or less to publicity.
I'm still pretty sure that actually killing yourself was out, at least as an official part of any and all Western Codes of Chivalry. Unofficially? Might have been something that at least a few people thought was okay. People committing suicide to avoid dishonor and/or dishonorable circumstances and public displays probably did happen more than a few times in the Middle Ages, and did happen during the Renaissance (I'm just not thinking of any specific cases off the top of my head right now)-- the divide between what shows up in more or less officially/religiously acceptable tracts on chivalry and honor, and what showed up in less "official" opinions as well as what was actually done, may explain the divide between what you and I recall on this issue (and although I recall it as being 'not allowed' in official tracts, I could also be wrong).
However, nearly all writings on the idea of chivalry, a knight's training, and honorable combat, invoked God, Religion, and Spirituality constantly. Although we don't see at as much in games, and it's been frequently forgotten in modern fiction and movies, faith was extremely important to the medieval knight, and faith and steadfast dedication made him a much better, much more effective warrior. Like the Japanese Bushido beliefs, a Western Knight's faith in God and in his cause helped him overcome all fear and hesitation on the battlefield. It's interesting though.... killing in the name of a God who told his followers to love one another, and not seeing any contradictions in that....
Although we don't see at as much in games, and it's been frequently forgotten in modern fiction and movies, faith was extremely important to the medieval knight
Darn right it was! It was a nice get out of jail free card. Spill blood, burn buildings, commit the oldest sins in the newest ways, and you trusted you had God at your back and the priests to wipe your slate clean. Where ever would the medieval chivalric knight be without their faith? If you were really bad, you could pay the church and they'd forgive you of your terrible transgressions.
...
Suddenly, atonement spells are a lot more realistic than I previously thought...
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Although we don't see at as much in games, and it's been frequently forgotten in modern fiction and movies, faith was extremely important to the medieval knightDarn right it was! It was a nice get out of jail free card. Spill blood, burn buildings, commit the oldest sins in the newest ways, and you trusted you had God at your back and the priests to wipe your slate clean. Where ever would the medieval chivalric knight be without their faith? If you were really bad, you could pay the church and they'd forgive you of your terrible transgressions.
...
Suddenly, atonement spells are a lot more realistic than I previously thought...
Yep. Atonement. Just like going to confession, doing penance, and buying indulgences... :D
(still awaiting your other replies :D )
Baptism was just the first step, though.
ANYWAY.
Flynn: true! I suspect political correctness issues at work.
:D
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Many of you have obviously never read le Morte d'Arthur. Many knights, but far more damsels, took their own lives. It is clear in the language of the text (it was written sometime before 1485 after all)that these deaths were in no way suicide, but were something else entirely. Our culture has a tendency to try and fit our ideas about life and death onto cultures we have no real knowledge about, and we always fail when we try to do this.
Knights, and damsels, 'fell upon their own swords' quiet often in these stories, and it is well established that "Suicide" has always been a mortal sin, according to Catholic teachings - so, when a knight or a damsel takes their own life, out of shame, heartbreak, or a sense of dishonor, it is not suicide, it is something we currently don't have a word for in our language (a word that is MOST appropriate, that is).
For another example, and as westerner I am really puting my ignorance on display here, but from what I understand, Seppuku is not suicide either, but again, something we, in the west, do not have an adequate word for.
Suicide = is someone killing him/her-self. No more, no less. We often attach a lot of extra meanings to it (somewhat depending on religious belief and outlook in most cases), but the word 'suicide' does not necessarily include those connotations. So, yes, Seppuku is suicide. Other ways of killing yourself are also suicide. The connotations we often attach to suicide in Western culture do not apply to Seppuku, at least as it is seen in Japanese culture, but that does not change the fact that it is someone taking his own life.
I have read 'Le Morte D'Arthur' (although it's been a while), and I do not recall more than a couple deaths by one's own deliberate action (falling on your sword)-- the Lady of Shallott (also memorialized by Tennyson) is the only one I can recall by name associated with the Arthurian legends. There were, I think, a few more deaths associated with someone's failure to take care of his needs for continued living, but not through active suicide. I think the words you are looking for is that the author of 'Le Morte d'Arthur' was expressing that these gallant/romantic/tragic suicides were free from sin or at least free from mortal/unforgivable sin (contrary to the teachings of the Church in the Middle Ages), not that they weren't suicides.
The point I was making in discussion with TacticsLion, et al. (and now you as well), is that suicide was 'officially' condemned and was not a recognized, commonly discussed part of any the 'codes of chivalry' that people wrote down or actively discussed as something you would actually try to live by in Western Europe in the Middle Ages-- not that suicides never happened or that the romantics and poets never wrote about it in a tragic light (while casting a more positive view over it than the Church did).