Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Nice Post. I guess I was wrong, the consensus seems to be the limits on uberguilds will be economic. That and the shear size of the world itself. There have been some mentions of warfare but we need more info (can I recriut an npc-humanoid army? Can I then ally with an npc faction that already has one?). Resources will only exist where it makes geographical sense. They will not immediately respawn. The most valuable resources will be further out in open pvp areas. All of this promotes scarcity even while the server population slowly expands. Eventually the devs seem to envision a world resembling the period of The Waring States in ancient China. Cool. How I'm going to solo through this is beyond me but I'm going to try.
There's going to be plenty of chances for a freelance bodyguard/mercenary to pick up a little bit of work. If you have good equipment, you can probably set your wages at "Great equipment" for some customers; if you don't have good equipment, you can probably find someone willing to pay you in good equipment in advance.
Goblin Squad Member
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@ Sepherum
And how that will help if the bank manager were to decide to run away with the money? Or to suspend his account?
The GM can't "rob" a player assets and distribute them to other players that claim "I have deposited X money in his bank".
A GM can't decide if a player has closed his account, decided to go Pay to Play or simply taken a sabbatical from the game.
If the bank owner were to decide to rob the bank and share the vault content between his accounts and those of his friends cancelling those transactions would be a nightmare as the GM had to investigate and decide what were legitimate transactions and what weren't. And before that he need to have a guideline about what constitute a legal transaction.Then:
How the bank owner will be compensated for his work? As he would be required to work to keep the bank running he should get a pay. He would not give interest, he would ask to be paid for the letter of credit service. If he were to issue loans as a way to get a profit for the bank he would need in game ways to be sure to be paid back. But the player getting the loan could easily leave the game and never return. So again we get to the point where we would need a GM intervention to get the money back.I could list problems for the next week as I have followed for years the EVE forum and seen several player managed banks fold. All the mechanics that limit bank fraud in RL are missing in a game. The option to replace them are: 1) GM intervention and that will be too costly for Goblinworks to implement after the initial period;
2) in game mechanics that will be very easy to abuse or extremely prone to be exploited, again getting us to heavy GM intervention to clear the consequencesSimply we are missing to many of the RL checks to make it feasible.
If a GM can return my stuff, down to the last stitch o' cloth, when my account has been hacked, I'm sure he/she can tell who is a depositor and who isn't. That being said, after reading your entire post...yes. Seems a PC run bank would be not only complex but rife with problems. Now back to the thread-how to compete with an uberguild with tons of cash in an untouchable npc bank? Drag a siege tower complete with battering ram up to the doors of Wells Fargo? We await the blog that deals with states of war and large scale pvp with all its' permutations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It all depend on what is considered a legitimate in game loss.
In EVE (dark and foreboding future) bank fraud is a legitimate scam so the in game money (isk) lost there is not reimbursed. Similarly any isk loss for in game activities is never returned.
On the other hand hacking or off game frauds losses are reimbursed and the cheater is punished.
Now we get to PFO, a not so dark game.
What is an acceptable loss for a player (and as an extension, for his Guild)?
- What he is carrying when he is assaulted by bandits (from the latest blog he would lose most of that if he lose the fight)?
- What he has in his house?
- What he has stored in a NPC bank?
and under what circumstances?
You are suggesting the possibility to assault a NPC bank and seem to think that it could be a necessary mechanic to curb uberguild power.
I see your reasoning, but think that on the other direction.
I am a guy that has deposited 90% of his in game resources in a NPC bank. The local uberguild has declared war to the country in which I am living. I am not aligned so I don't really care if the country stand or fall.
I will have to scramble to get my money out of the bank and run to another country to save it? With a a very real risk of losing all to a group of bandits while I am moving the money?
Hope that the new rulers will not rob the NPC bank?
Fight to defend the territory of a guild that isn't mine to save my money?
Quit the game in frustration?
I think that founds entrusted to a NPC institution should be untouchable.
You could be killed and robbed after leaving the bank but your deposit should always be safe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that founds entrusted to a NPC institution should be untouchable.
You could be killed and robbed after leaving the bank but your deposit should always be safe.
Well there's 2 ways I think that things could be done in that scenerio. First off NPC banks, should either 1. be in a universal pocket dimension (I.E accessible from any town), 2. Be limited exclusively to NPC towns.
In a capturable player town with an NPC bank, even if the players can't raid the bank, you would still have to beg them for access, as odds are once they freshly have captured a town, their first response will be to put it on lockdown, kill anyone outside of their guild to prevent spies, counter attacks etc... Neutrals will likely have the same trust levels as their enemy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will coinage be conservedYes, coins are virtual and aren't actual items.
Will there be an option for storing things you own, like a safe deposit box?You'll have storage that's perfectly secure. You may be able to create ad hoc storage in the wilderness but it will not be perfectly secure.
Just to remind everyone that you won't lose coins when you get killed, and there will be 100% secure NPC storage in addition to any player-built storage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It all depend on what is considered a legitimate in game loss.
In EVE (dark and foreboding future) bank fraud is a legitimate scam so the in game money (isk) lost there is not reimbursed. Similarly any isk loss for in game activities is never returned.On the other hand hacking or off game frauds losses are reimbursed and the cheater is punished.
Now we get to PFO, a not so dark game.
What is an acceptable loss for a player (and as an extension, for his Guild)?
- What he is carrying when he is assaulted by bandits (from the latest blog he would lose most of that if he lose the fight)?
- What he has in his house?
- What he has stored in a NPC bank?and under what circumstances?
You are suggesting the possibility to assault a NPC bank and seem to think that it could be a necessary mechanic to curb uberguild power.
I see your reasoning, but think that on the other direction.
I am a guy that has deposited 90% of his in game resources in a NPC bank. The local uberguild has declared war to the country in which I am living. I am not aligned so I don't really care if the country stand or fall.
I will have to scramble to get my money out of the bank and run to another country to save it? With a a very real risk of losing all to a group of bandits while I am moving the money?
Hope that the new rulers will not rob the NPC bank?
Fight to defend the territory of a guild that isn't mine to save my money?
Quit the game in frustration?I think that founds entrusted to a NPC institution should be untouchable.
You could be killed and robbed after leaving the bank but your deposit should always be safe.
Actually, my comment about besieging Wells Fargo was a joke. A poor one, yes. I (and others) had hoped that PC-run banks, with their risk/reward paradigm; that is 'wildcatting' fraud, failure, etc. but also the emergence of large responsible institutions whose power even an uberguild would have to respect, was possible. You have convinced me otherwise. As Nihimon just stated in-game money is virtual and cannot be looted and npc banks will be 100% untouchable. Yes, it helps everyone. You make it home,sell/craft and deposit your money. Cool. Now back to the point of the thread: In a game where large player-run organizations will be allowed, nay encouraged to form prelaunch and join all at once from the beginning, it will be difficult for next-stage players to compete. On a large map it would be impossible for factions among 4500 players to conquer everything obviously. They will also have a month to find the best resource nodes and start building. I assume there will be markets in highsec space. No word on auction houses. Their precious metals have been converted to coinage. Their resources have been converted to goods and sold. All this cash is in the bank at Fort Inevitable, untouchable. Next monthly population spike. Many people join the Saurons ("It would be wise, my friend"), others will sign up the same way, in large, pre-formed groups and go land-hunting. Eventually (6 mos?) you're gonna have the uberguilds we've been speaking of. What I hope is what I believe the devs are aiming for: there will be several large corporations and their allies struggling over resources, land and power. Filling in the gaps will be mercenaries, adventurers, bandits, bounty hunters, craftsmen and tradespeople. There will opportunity for both soloers and family guilds (associated with larger factions or allied among themselves for survival). That is the endgame. In this thread the mention of very large guilds/alliances zerging in other MMOs might be worrisome. The possibility of only a few (or one?!) uberguilds dominating the server is also. We await the blog explaining how large scale pvp and states of war are going to work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now back to the thread-how to compete with an uberguild with tons of cash in an untouchable npc bank? Drag a siege tower complete with battering ram up to the doors of Wells Fargo? We await the blog that deals with states of war and large scale pvp with all its' permutations.
If a game doesn't have much in the way of cash sinks for players (which probably accurately describes most Themepark MMO's) then having a ton of cash sitting in the bank would be a real issue in that regard.
PFO, presumably, won't be that sort of game. With equipment loss and hopefully repair and plenty of other cash drains that players and guilds will experience in thier regular course of play...a cash reserve is no longer an insurmountable obstacle because you can't sit around and live off it forever...it's a nice thing to have for a rainy day...but if you aren't having a regular influx of wealth it will quickly dry up.
So the way you attack a Guild that has a large war chest in the bank...is to strip away thier activities that are used to generate wealth...force them to dig into that war-chest until it's all gone.
In terms of conflict, I'd also like to fall back on one of my favorate bylines "money is worthless".... in reality (in modern terms) it's just ugly green paper with bad art on it...it has very little INTRINSIC value. It's real value is it's POTENTIAL to be exchanged for things that DO have INTRINSIC value...weapons, tool, steel, food, horses, soldiers, etc.
So another way to take out a Guild that has access to a large, untouchable cash reserve is simply to cut-off access to all those usefull things which cash can usualy be exchanged for. A gold or silver coin makes for a poor projectile to fire out of a bow.
In game, some of the most basic equipment should probably be available through NPC vendors in unlimited quantity.... but most quality items should be PC crafted (or gained as treasure) ONLY and dependant upon crafters and gathering of raw materials. So taking away a Guilds access to gather raw materials (or to crafters) means that their guys are running around the battle-field wearing poor quality leather and armed with rusty swords...while yours are in masterwork plate with enchanted blades and quaffing down strength potions. That translates to real advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing to keep in mind with respect to uber-guilds gaining an insurmountable upper hand, is that the admins will likely take a fairly active hand in the early days to ensure this doesn't happen. Think of a forum with no moderation versus a forum that is heavily moderated as it first starts up.
I doubt the developers will allow an uber-guild to take over, and if that starts to happen, I imagine they'll have ways to sway the balance of power until it's something they consider sustainable. Their primary objective is not to have an utterly unconstrained world, but rather to create an enjoyable environment for new players.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just to remind everyone that you won't lose coins when you get killed, and there will be 100% secure NPC storage in addition to any player-built storage.Will coinage be conservedYes, coins are virtual and aren't actual items.
I don't think that exchange means what you think it means. In the context of 'items are destroyed on looting for economy reasons', I was asking if coinage would be destroyed, or if the looter would get all of the cash I had on hand. "Conserved" meant, to me, the physics definition which was contrary to the behavior of 'items'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, thanks for the dash of humor.
As for my take on this, I think equipment durability/town upkeep will solve this problem quite nicely. I really hate having to keep making this comparison, but I've got nothing else, so, here we go again... EvE Online.
In EvE Online, huge corps are stopped from laying waste to the galaxy by one word: LOGISTICS. Since ships are a guaranteed loss on death, and even most ship equipment is rather iffy on whether it can be recovered or not, the costs of war are very high. Combined with the time and effort it takes to either bring in ships, or make them out in nullsec, and it takes an astronomical amount of manpower and currency to make any major corp run at full strength. Most huge corps don't mobilize their entire force unless at severe risk; combined with the ingame currency and item costs of keeping stations up and running; Fees on controlling systems, fuel for the stations in those systems... you get the idea.
Sure, some corps can go buy lots of cheap-but-dangerous ships and suicide-gank hapless people in highsec, but that will drain funds; all the ships to replace, the extra sets of equipment to have on hand, the time it takes to bring all that gear to one area, etc. So yes, huge corps can flex their might, but not too often; it takes time and currency to regather their strength.
I just thought of another cost: TIME. Technically, yes, all costs boil down to time, but I'm talking about time directly. Sure, some huge powerbloc can rule 5 huge kingdoms and 3 sprawling dungeons; but all material costs aside, what about the time and effort it takes to ship that material from place to place? That would place a drain on the kingdom's efforts beyond just weekly dues.
If guilds become too powerful, in the end they will only hurt the game at large. People will just stop playing, and they will have 'won' the game, only to see it fail because of a lack of population. This is one of the causes of PvP game failure. Ganking and otherwise abusing PvP is what drives people OUT. Same would occur with any game system. Sadly, humans are their own worst enemy. If a system is managed by a human, that system will be abused at some point. Some people don't even stop to think about consequences, they simply do without thinking about whether or not they even should. If that occurs, it will be because P/GW did not think this problem all the way through. And there are plenty of actual game histories that show these problems in detail. And most of the time, it's because the game heavily favored the guilds to begin with, instead of focusing on individual player accomplishment rewarding the guild with that players membership.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would normally agree with the OP, but playing EVE in the past and seeing a power house corp like Band of Brothers facing attacks and usurpation by many different upstart corps, I don't see much of an advantage for the first-launchers.
Besides that, if they form and govern well, why replace them? Who says everybody needs to be a king?