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Greetings!
In March '11, I picked up the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and the first issue of the Council of Thieves adventure path, but I was unable to teach myself the rules set under a rock quickly enough to maintain my interest.
I started a thread at that time: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3nd7?-Never-Played-DD-3-Just-Got-Pathfinder-Cor e#1
We are GURPS Fourth Edition players first and foremost, but SJ Games refuses to do what Paizo does so well, and that's put out lots of fun adventures and cool supplements brimming with beautiful artwork. The GURPS rules set is fantastic; SJG isn't. It's like they run their company in a vacuum separate from other game companies like Paizo.
Anyway, I saw the visually-stunning Beginner Box on the shelf of a local Barnes and Noble (no gaming or hobby shops around) and gave it a test heft. Man, is this thing heavy! I didn't even know what was inside -- I just trusted in Paizo to know what they were doing.
My trust seems to have been well founded. This thing is an RPG treasure trove!
I'm still going through the box and haven't played it yet, but rest assured I'll let you all know how it goes.
There will only be two players and myself as GM (DM?), and one of them is eight years old! He does pretty well. GURPS is much more "realistic" and lethal than any other system I've played (~10), and he still manages to behave rationally and not get himself killed. He's super excited to play. He watched, wide-eyed, as I opened the box and sifted through the extremely high-quality material.
So, consider this my second introduction post. :)
Until next time,
-Stripe
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Oh, wow! I just noticed the Beginner Box Bash Demos and Beginner Box Pathfinder Society Character Creation Guide PDFs! And, the Beginner Box Resource page: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/beginnerbox
Awesome! XD
This makes me want to buy the map packs.
I'm very glad to find a BB character sheet there for download, too. That was my only initial concern: few printed sheets. I don't have access to a scanner right now, so the download fixes the issue 100%.
Man, it's times like these that I hate being such an outcast stuck in SJG Land. Being a GURPS enthusiast is like being the poor kid stuck outside hungry and cold in the snow watching the other kids feasting inside by the fireplace.
Man, it's times like these that I hate being such an outcast stuck in SJG Land. Being a GURPS enthusiast is like being the poor kid stuck outside hungry and cold in the snow watching the other kids feasting inside by the fireplace.
Luckily, there is no law declaring that each person must enjoy only one RPG!
I love me some Pathfinder, but it requires a specific mindset that is really abstract. Some parts of the game drive me up the wall. Even as a newcoming Pathfinder player, there will be times that it drives you up the wall, too (I'm guessing, since you come from GURPS).
Play all games, but it's okay to stay true to your roots. If you don't expect Pathfinder to play like GURPS, and just let it be its quirky damned self, you'll definitely enjoy it.
Good luck!
Stripe whereabouts are you located we could get a local VC/VL to help smooth the transition to PFRPG?
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* Dram Daemon, I've only taken a look at the flip mat and it looks really cool and high quality. I'm wondering how well it will stay flat, though...? I'm surprised they went this route instead of the smaller map tiles like they sell -- not saying it's at all a bad thing, though! Like I say, it looks cool.
I recently lost my Chessex mat and pens in a fire, along with some $1,000 in miniatures. Unpainted, than God. Everyone, have a pity party for me right now! :D
However, I HATE the pawns. I HATE them so much that I'm going to pre-order the Bestiary box set so that I can hate them too. ;)
I'm kidding, of course. The pawns are awesome. I'll let you all know what my friend's eight-year-old son thinks of them.
The dice? Well, they're dice. If you mean polyhedral, I come from a background of OD&D and AD&D 2nd Ed. before we went to the all-d6 GURPS. I fondly recall a certain set with an orange d20, white d12, white d10, black d10, blue d8, d6 (red with white numbers?), and green d4. Sound familiar to anyone? XD I think I have two of them, actually. I also had some pretty dice, but I never got into that.
By the way, I was a HUGE fan of HeroQuest and still am. I also had Dragon Strike and LOVED it as a preteen and young teen (I'm 31 now). That's not to mention a D&D box set or two (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17533/the-new-easy-to-master-dungeons-d ragons).
* Shivok, I doubt we're close and I could move far, far away at any time. But, thanks a lot for the offer! If I do move, it will either be to a large city in Florida that is huge on Pathfinder, or out to Colorado where there is no one around for miles.
I love me some Pathfinder, but it requires a specific mindset that is really abstract.
Oh, totally. I realize it's nothing like GURPS, which has every little thing down to an exact science. I started in OD&D days but really was heavy in 2nd Ed. days. Then, we moved to GURPS 3e and stayed with it. Little did we know, our choice would make us "separatists."
I'm not seeking to become a fan of the rules set. I'm seeking to become a fan of the system.
But, that's not to say being able to roll one dice to attack and everything, and being able to hack and slash and fling fireballs and hurl lightning bolts through a dungeon isn't appealing. Its abstract simplicity is a perk. As a matter of fact, these D&D-style systems are designed with fun in mind, which will be a refreshing break for a bit.
GURPS, of course, is designed in the opposite: to be realistic with a counterweight of fun. I'm glad for that, too, because that's our style. No, I'll never like Pathfinder or any other system more than I like GURPS. No biggie.
But, we don't get all the breathtaking art and fun dungeons and adventures and cool supplements and play mats and... Well, we're the kids who never get to go into the candy store. We are stuck outside looking in. Poor us!
* Update: I played through the Lone Wolf-style choose your own adventure solo game and enjoyed it. Too bad it wasn't two or three times as long! Or longer!
The one tiny little quibble I had was the breaking of my suspension of disbelief when the boy hid a freaking mace beneath his shirt. XD Couldn't I just have found it by searching around the room or laying on a table or something? :D
The skeleton battle was very well balanced. I did, in fact, have to use my healing potion even though I was only down 3 hp at the start. It seems like winning that fight is a coin toss, as it should be.
Honestly, if Paizo made these solo adventures, I would buy them.
Until next time,
-Stripe
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Some thoughts as I read through the GM's Guide:
* Page 4 and 5 -- These are designed very well. I like how page 5 explains things after page 4 gets the adventure started. After a quick read of page 5, I know more about Pathfinder than I learned after spending lengthy time with the core book! The core book could be greatly improved by simply adding 2-4 pages like this in the front (unless I missed something like that).
* The GM map on the inside cover is well designed.
* I'm surprised that the (wonderful) glowing fountain artwork was included on the Flip Mat. It makes the map less generic and reusable, in my opinion. However, the extraordinary value for this box set was such, I'm sure, that Paizo couldn't swing giving us map tiles. Not a big deal. Just an observation.
* It may have been worth noting on back of the box that erasable markers are recommended. I should have a set, but I lost them in a fire. No biggie at all, though! Just a note.
* I wonder what the goblins and goblin chief in Room 8 should think about the "murder" of two of their kind outside the dungeon. It seems as though the chief is willing to establish a long-term agreement, but I can't imagine him being so willing knowing two of his men just got mercilessly slaughtered by a bunch of outsiders.
* No mention is made, that I noticed, that the unexplored areas of the dungeon should be concealed. We'll probably use a black shirt. Thoughts?
* Surprise. I first noticed surprise mentioned and explained in the description of Room 5, the spider's nest. It states that some of the PCs may not necessarily be surprised. I wondered more about the surprise initiative, but didn't find "surprise" in the index. Later, after thinking about it, I figured it will be explained in the Player's Guide. It is. Might have been worth a mention.
* I see at the end of the description of Room 9, the crypt, that reading the Hero's Handbook is indeed strongly encouraged. I have no idea what flanking is, other than what one can gather from its name. That's all good and well. I plan to read every word of both books before running this thing.
* Just making sure: the Dragon's Bane does 1d8+3 damage to Blacktooth, plus an additional 2d6, right? And, that extra 2d6 doesn't get added again on a critical. I got the 1d8 stat for a longsword from the player's handbook. Yes, I really am that new; I don't even know how much damage a longsword does. XD
* I think I've heaped plenty of praise upon Paizo's art, but it goes beyond that. This book is beautifully crafted and of peerless quality in every way. The layout is visually impressive. It's just a great book all the way around.
* The adventure seems like a fun one! Of course, as a venerable GM, I'll add my own small adjustments to the adventure. Since we'll only have two players, maybe one of the goblins will come along to help the PCs? :)
* I stopped reading the GM's Guide for now after reading the adventure and am getting ready to start reading the player's handbook.
Until next time,
-Stripe
Re mace under shirt - yes, I thought that was very silly too. They could just have had the boy point out a nook where the goblins had hidden a mace.
* No mention is made, that I noticed, that the unexplored areas of the dungeon should be concealed. We'll probably use a black shirt. Thoughts?
For pre-printed flip mats I've used black window marker to conceal the map. (available at party supply stores and other places in various colors, they're typically used on car windows etc) The paint comes off the mat with a lightly damp sponge as the rooms are explored...
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That sounds like a great idea, tburke0! I doubt I'll have a chance to pick one of those up before our adventure, which we will hopefully undertake today.
I've read through the Hero's Handbook front to back, every word and it was all very well explained. I feel ready to run my first adventure!
Right now, I'm reading through the rest of the Game Master's Guide. Once I'm done doing that, I'll edit the adventure slightly to fit my taste.
Looking forward to playing my first game of Pathfinder! :)
For pre-printed flip mats I've used black window marker to conceal the map. (available at party supply stores and other places in various colors, they're typically used on car windows etc) The paint comes off the mat with a lightly damp sponge as the rooms are explored...
* No mention is made, that I noticed, that the unexplored areas of the dungeon should be concealed. We'll probably use a black shirt. Thoughts?
In a pinch, I've used a pack of index cards to cover things up -- you can move them fairly easily and slide them under each other to reveal irregular shapes. Post-it notes work too, if you're concerned cards may move too much.
Hope your family enjoys it as much as my stepson did!
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RE: Flipmat vs tiles
The advantage the flipmat has over tiles is that the flipmat has a reusable blank backside with which a dm can draw/craft an unlimitted amount of scenarios/dungeons/locations. With tiles you are stuck with a limitted number of variations among those tiles.
While Paizo sells tiles, I'm reasonably sure that their flipmats outsell their tile sets.
Welcome to Pathfinder! I'm glad you're having fun.:)
I'll address some of your comments.
{* It may have been worth noting on back of the box that erasable markers are recommended.}
The back of the box says "Flip-Mat™play surface that works with any kind of marker." You really can use dry-erase, wet-erase, or even permanent marker on them (for permanent marker, which is the least optimal marker to use, draw over it with a dry-erase marker to let its solvent work on the permanent marker, then you should be able to rub off the marks).
{* I wonder what the goblins and goblin chief in Room 8 should think about the "murder" of two of their kind outside the dungeon. It seems as though the chief is willing to establish a long-term agreement, but I can't imagine him being so willing knowing two of his men just got mercilessly slaughtered by a bunch of outsiders.}
Goblins are brutal little freaks, and have been known to knife each other over a particularly tasty chicken bone... two dead guys outside the cave just means less competition for food and dames.
{* Surprise. I first noticed surprise mentioned and explained in the description of Room 5, the spider's nest. It states that some of the PCs may not necessarily be surprised. I wondered more about the surprise initiative, but didn't find "surprise" in the index. Later, after thinking about it, I figured it will be explained in the Player's Guide. It is. Might have been worth a mention.}
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but the Creature entry for the room says"All PCs much make Perception skill checks [against the spider's Stealth skill check]... Those who fail are surprised."
{* I see at the end of the description of Room 9, the crypt, that reading the Hero's Handbook is indeed strongly encouraged. I have no idea what flanking is, other than what one can gather from its name. That's all good and well. I plan to read every word of both books before running this thing.}
Flanking is a key part of a rogue character being able to sneak attack, and is explained on the rogue pregenerated character sheet, just in case you haven't read the Hero's Handbook. :)
{* Just making sure: the Dragon's Bane does 1d8+3 damage to Blacktooth, plus an additional 2d6, right? And, that extra 2d6 doesn't get added again on a critical.}
Correct!
{* The adventure seems like a fun one! Of course, as a venerable GM, I'll add my own small adjustments to the adventure. Since we'll only have two players, maybe one of the goblins will come along to help the PCs? :)}
Sounds like a plan... offer him some chicken bones! :)
For pre-printed flip mats I've used black window marker to conceal the map. (available at party supply stores and other places in various colors, they're typically used on car windows etc) The paint comes off the mat with a lightly damp sponge as the rooms are explored...
* No mention is made, that I noticed, that the unexplored areas of the dungeon should be concealed. We'll probably use a black shirt. Thoughts?
You can also tape some black construction paper over the unexplored rooms and remove them as you go. I've used clear tape on my Flip-Mats many times with no adverse effects. Also, the newer Map Tiles now have the same marker-friendly laminate as the Flip Mats. Should you pick up some of those, you could then tape them in place to conceal areas of a dungeon without wasting paper. (Or turn each tile over as the PCs enter that tile's room.)
but SJ Games refuses to do what Paizo does so well, and that's put out lots of fun adventures
So it's not so much that SJ Games refuses as SJ Games, as a business proposition, can't. GURPS adventures never sold particularly well; GURPS is a much smaller market than D&D/D20/Pathfinder and that market is then fragmented by genre to a much greater extent. So the budget SJ Games can afford to spend per adventure is significantly less than Paizo, because two and a half decades of experience prove the sales will be less.
The net result look the same as refusal on the consumer end, granted.
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GURPS adventures never sold particularly well; GURPS is a much smaller market than D&D/D20/Pathfinder and that market is then fragmented by genre to a much greater extent.
Ah! Someone else who's well versed in SJG's dogma! *Secret GURPS handshake* Greetings, brother! We are behind enemy lines! :D
Just kidding. ;)
I agree wholeheartedly with you for the most part.
Past adventures haven't sold well for very clear reasons.
The first, and most often cited, is because everyone is doing their own thing. As you so eloquently stated, GURPS is fragmented by genre; GURPS' greatest strength is it's greatest weakness in that regard.
However, the second reason, which is equally true, lays the blame on SJG for making adventures that won't sell well anyway, even to their target audience.
Some of the adventures most often cited as selling poorly are, in fact, completely ridiculous ideas to market commercially. Big Lizzy is an adventure about cowboys riding dinosaurs for crying out loud. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/biglizzie/
Others, they set themselves up to fail by picking genres that have little wide appeal to GURPS players. "GURPS Lair of the Fat Man is an oddball romp through super-spy clichés, in the style of 1960s espionage films that don't take themselves too seriously." http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-1101
In my opinion, most (all that I know) of their adventures are clearly sub par when compared to material from places like Paizo, even the ones of a genre that appeals to me.
It is my contention that SJG has simply failed in this arena and then blamed it on the customers. So, I'm not really happy with SJG. But, who am I? I'm just a nobody with an opinion and a sphincter like everyone else. :D
I'll say this: if the Dungeon Fantasy line's new dungeon doesn't sell well, then it is because SJG failed once again. It's *not* because GURPS Dungeon Fantasy players don't like dungeons. (That seems a lot like pointing out the sky is blue.)
However, on a positive note, I'm very confident it will do quite well. I certainly hope it does since I love GURPS with a passion and want to see it be as successful as possible. No, it can't hang with the big dogs because of fundamental differences (that I love and wouldn't change), but I do hope that GURPS will become the best that it can be, and that means putting out quality adventures.
Have fun!
-Stripe
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Welcome to Pathfinder! I'm glad you're having fun.:)
I am! Great job on this and other products, by the way. I love your company's work.
Goblins are brutal little freaks, and have been known to knife each other over a particularly tasty chicken bone... two dead guys outside the cave just means less competition for food and dames.
That just throws up a bit of a red flag in my imagination. Keep in mind, I've come from a 20-year history of not pigeonholing species and races into stereotypes cultural or otherwise, even when we played AD&D 2nd Ed.
I'll try harder to get into the right mindset! :D
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but the Creature entry for the room says"All PCs much make Perception skill checks [against the spider's Stealth skill check]... Those who fail are surprised."
I was just thinking out loud that a single sentence with a page reference to the Hero's Guide would have helped me there. Literally, I was typing as I read everything for the first time.
However, I did misread that section. Somehow, I wasn't clear about the target number for the Perception check. Must have been reading too fast.
Sounds like a plan... offer him some chicken bones! :)
Will do, boss! :D
Thanks!
-Stripe
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Update!
The night before last, I read through both books cover to cover, thuogh I skimmed much of the GMG. I'm not ready to write my own adventure. We'll fight Blackfang first. :)
We played yesterday and I even video recorded the session. But, things didn't go at all how I would have liked. :(
First, something came up and my friend couldn't play. So, that was a major bummer.
But, we had already promised his son we'd play Pathfinder. Not wanting to break that promise, just he and I tried a solo session.
Nothing went right for us.
We only had an hour due to other scheduling issues, the "mood" was way off, and it ended up I wasn't as prepared as I thought.
Also, I made a fatal mistake right from the beginning; I wanted the boy's first character to be his own, not a pre-gen. That meant taking precious little time we had to roll one up.
For some reason I tried hard to determine, the boy is able to do simple addition mentally very well -- as long as the dice aren't involved. If I were to ask, "What's five plus five plus five?" -- and I did -- he would reply instantly with the correct answer. If three 5's landed on the dice a moment later, it would take him a really long time to get the answer, maybe 15-20 seconds. He did well at instantly recognizing the lowest number of the four and tossing it out, though.
Keep in mind, I've taught this kid GURPS, which is way, way more complex than BB PF. So this stuff isn't over his head.
Anyway, the dice gods were brutal. Shame on them! He once rolled a five or six! His first *three* roll outs didn't meet the criteria set in the BB, or even close. It took all of 10 tedious minutes just to roll his attributes. That's a lot of time to an eight-year-old kid, and the clock was ticking.
We then got tied up with getting things written where they belonged on the sheet.
Before we finished, I reluctantly abandoned making his first character from scratch. If he were an adult, we would have flown through it. But, it wasn't the right time to teach a child who writes huge and presses hard and wants to erase often and can't add dice how to make his first PF character and play a solo session. XD
None of that really matters in the long run, though. He's a smart kid and a good role player.
When we got into the session, which I tried to simply make out of the numbered sections in the Hero book, but with pawns on the Flip Mat, we encountered too many frustrating distractions in the room.
It just was a flop, but all things were aligned against us. It wasn't meant to be. Like I say, I didn't want to play under such circumstances, but the kid wanted to play so bad and I had promised.
Our next attempt, I'm sure, will go well and I'll have a fun and happy play session, maybe with a video, to report.
Until then!
-Stripe
It's a shame it didn't go well, but it's really cool to hear about your experience anyway, so thank you for that :) And keep up the good work! Looking forward to the next installment!
Thats unfortunate that things didnt go well, but try not to let it get to you. I promise you I have had worse sessions. Sometimes life gets in the way, sometimes as the dm you totally screw up. We are all human, we make mistakes. I have been dming for what seems like ages and I still have plenty of screw ups. You will make mistakes, sessions will turn out oppossite to what you wanted. That is part of the fun of rpgs, it wouldn't be as worthwhile if you got it perfect every time.
About Goblins - Golarion ones apparently become a favourite of the staff and many of us here. These critters aren't exactly dumb, but they think with their stomach first because of their hyperactive metabolism and can get overexcited easily, especially with fire (danger+bright+unpredicatble=epicwinwinwin!), bright colours, dangerous things, scrap, surprises, dogs cruelty and horses. They often act before thinking. Their crazy antics are favorites of many. The fact that in Golarion the chief concern of goblin mothers is to keep the children from eating their siblings speaks a lot about their nature.
Your goblins can of course be different, but that's a matter of setting.
Aside from that welcome and have fun!
Well, they have their own racial book - Goblins of Golarion, which will probably be the most extensive resource, but you can also find a lot of info in Classic Monsters Revisited.
I have not seen Goblins of Golarion, but I do remember that the first book of the Rise of the Runelords AP did a great job of introducing the Golarion goblins.
Also check out the free Pathfinder module We Be Goblins! That one might be a hit with your 10 year old!!