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I was the GM for a society game for the first time yesterday and nearly inflicted a TPK. I determined that the boss monster's wand was not fully charged to avoid this. So questions:
1) Was I a wimp? Should I have played it out without pulling punches? Two party members were still up, they still had a chance to win.
2) How common should it be for PCs to die?
3) How common should a TPK be in society play?
Thanks!
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1) It depends. If you are uncomfortable with killing other people's characters when they use poor tactics, gimpy builds or when the dice are just going against them, then yes you are a wimp. If you felt the players were new to the campaign and a TPK would spell the last time they sat down to play Pathfinder Society, then you're not a wimp, your a good organized play GM.
2) First level is rough. Each PC is a crit away from getting smoked for good. In the higher level scenarios PCs can and should die on occasion. Without the risk of death the game tends to lose excitement.
3) It depends how much you are GMing. If you TPK a party every five scenarios, there's a problem with your GMing. If you TPK a party every 50 scenarios then you're pretty average.
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It entirely depends on the circumstances. Did the players do something tactically unwise to get themselves in that situation? Were they new players? Were they lower level? Low level characters are very vulnerable to getting clocked in one swing, and losing a player or two to lucky crits can be terrible for the rest of the party. If the players were above level 2, they shouldn't be at the mercy of a TPK unless the dice gods decree it or they decide to do something exceptionally foolish. And in that case, let the dice fall where they may.
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I was at the table next to this party and was actual running the same mod and I feel you did admirably Brother Mortimer.
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On a side note I ran a Beginners Bash event at a local store and had a group of teens show up completely new to RPG's. The first, and only event, ended with a TPK. I was horrified at first but the just laughed it off and seemed to have a ball. They ended up buying a Box and all of them left with their own dice.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Regarding a total-party-kill: there's are several ways to appreach the situation, and you should tailor them to your own GMing style.
The worst results, as I've seen them, come from a GM who obviously cheats --stops rolling in public, gives the villains suddenly poor tactics-- to make the party survive. We players walk away from the table feeling like we were incompetent and pitied.
Almost as bad is the table where the GM seems to relish the party's deaths. I've never played in that situation, but I've GMed a table right next to it at Gen Con each of the last three years. Whether the entire party dies or just ekes out a surviving escapee, it feels like the GM is rolling out a pre-ordained doom.
In particular, and I see this a lot: if they party's in danger, the GM should not be applying time pressure. If it takes a player 30 seconds to add up all the modifiers on an attack roll or a saving throw, that's fine. Then the GM might even ask: "Is that everything?"
Another awkward scenario is the character who could save the party but elects not to do so. I'm not talking about strict PC-vs.-PC, but rather when a player tries to be silly or dangerous with a character -- insulting the NPCs in power, opening dors during combat, hiding in a corner "because he's afraid of devils and that's what he'd do" -- and that results in the party's death.
--+--+--
What I try to aim for is a GM style where I am obviously on the party's "side", hoping that they all make it out alive, but I am also playing the NPCs to their utmost and rolling all the dice in the open.
A fair win by the skin of the PC's teeth is a great feeling. But it's only a rush because a TPK might happen. A fair kill, with the party unable to compensate for poor choices or bad luck, is just as good for stories.
Whether they are rare or not, the worst thing about a TPK is that there are very few ways available for the bodies to be recovered so that the characters can be raised from the dead. Normally, if even one PC survives and escapes back to the Society, it is assumed that the Society recovers the bodies and raise dead can be done as usual. But if no one returns, then I think there are a couple of options from the Field Guide that can be bought, but are there any other ways for body recovery from a TPK?
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But if no one returns, then I think there are a couple of options from the Field Guide that can be bought, but are there any other ways for body recovery from a TPK?
Like you said, it costs 5 PA to recover the body, and only 3 PA if your faction is the Shadow Lodge.
I personally like to avoid TPKs. TPKs discourage many people, sometimes enough to quit playing the game (or PFS) altogether.
I prefer to avoid it upfront though, by scenario analysis, selection and critique, and advising subtier selection based on party composition.
Save or die spells are tough. Either they don't work and the boss goes down like a chump, or they work great and you potentially have a TPK.
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Save or die spells are tough. Either they don't work and the boss goes down like a chump, or they work great and you potentially have a TPK.
Here's looking at you,
We rolled right through that as a party, but when I GM'd it....youch. Dropped a player a round with that wand. The last two played tag team on whittling and healing. Finally ground it down with one player left. I was sweating what would have happened if that last player had dropped, I had no desire to TPK the lot of them.
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When I played it on my rogue, we also kicked her butt. I had no idea she even had a wand. The encounter didn't seem that hard, but we did (and guessed) all the right things. It *could* have gone badly though, we must have made the saving throws. Which is kind of my point, either the boss is impotent or just trashes you.
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When I played it on my rogue, we also kicked her butt. I had no idea she even had a wand. The encounter didn't seem that hard, but we did (and guessed) all the right things. It *could* have gone badly though, we must have made the saving throws. Which is kind of my point, either the boss is impotent or just trashes you.
Well, being a charisma 20 sorc with the right feats landing a DC 17 saving throw at first level....color spray right back atcha, wench!
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I have to say my experience with the new free intro scenarios has been a negative one. Out of 10 characters who played the first 2 scenarios, 9 died.
Avoid the intro scenarios.
And, in all the times I have played and run the First Steps scenarios, I have seen no one die. A few have gone down, but never dead dead.
Part 1: Run once, played twice
Part 2: Run once, played twice
Part 3: Run twice
It takes either very hot dice for the GM, or extremely cold dice, and/or incredibly bad tactics, for the players, to cause even one death, much less a TPK.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I can see that, Maasika. There is one dangerous encounter in the first scenario, and a couple of nasty ones in the second scenario. 1st-level PCs are less frail in Pathfinder than in 3.5, but it's still the case that a missed saving throw or an enemy critical hit can drop a character from full.
Having said that, I don't know of any scenarios that are any safer. Maybe a few of the investigative scenarios, since there are fewer serious combats.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Having 9/10 PCs die in First Steps makes me suspicious of your GM. My mother, who's never played an RPG before, did just fine in Part 1 (the only part she played). My dad (at almost the same level of gaming experience) played Parts 1 and 2 (Part 1 at the same time as my mom) and had no trouble.
I've also never heard of anyone else dying in those scenarios. I can think of a place or two where I could see it being possible, but 9 out of 10? Something's up.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I was the GM.... I ran it black and white.
Then I can think of 4 possibilities:
1. The dice were very much against the PCs for two whole separate parties (seems unlikely).
2. Your experience was the norm while somehow everybody else I've ever seen or heard of got lucky (similarly unlikely).
3. You didn't run it as black and white as you think you did.
4. Your players made some really ineffective characters. Twice.
I'd be curious to hear what happened (perhaps in the GM Discussion section, where spoilers are less of a big deal).
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As many have already pointed out, first-level characters can be taken down with one critical hit. I have been on both sides of that. As a GM, I do not see the game as "GM vs. players", but nor do I pull punches. I try to play the NPC villains as intelligently as their descriptions allow.
On the other hand, many of the players in the club are brand new to RPGs. I try to offer hints and outright help if they really seem to need it. That extra kindness will not last long, though.