Hold Person
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a small, straight piece of iron)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
Questions that came up in last night's game:
Can a spellcaster with silent spell, still spell, and eschew components still cast while held? Note, the SRD says they cannot take any action, but this would be a purely mental action.Do held characters get a reflex save?
How do you treat a held creature occupying a square? Can another character fight over that square, move through, or occupy that square (like they could with a helpless character).
Our answers were: yes, a spellcaster can cast if he very well prepared (three feats and a prepared spell). No, saving throw since it can't leap out of the way. You can move through the square, but you can't stop in it since the spell might release at any moment making it an illegal square.
Agree? Disagree?
The "not take any actions deserves an FAQ"
Even when you are paralyzed you get a reflex save, but at a -5. When you are paralyzed you are helpless so another character should be able to occupy the same square.
Rule quote from the book
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).[
Casting a spell, even one modified by Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell, still takes an action (usually a standard action), so a person who fails a save against hold person cannot do so.
A person who is affected by hold person or paralyzed in another manner still gets a saving throw (so do unconscious characters). But they are treated as having a Dexterity score of 0, so their Dexterity modifier to the Reflex save would be -5.
When you are affected by hold person you are paralyzed. When you are paralyzed you are helpless.
From PRD, Page 574.
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimming can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature--ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
Ok, I have bolded the relevant parts. If a spellcaster had silent, still, and eschew materials AND is either a spontaneous caster or had prepared a spell with silent and still (+2 effective level, remember), then yes, he could still cast while paralyzed.
He is helpless, so he can still make Reflex saves--but note that his effective Dexterity is 0. That is a -5 modifier, and he loses any positive modifier he may have had already. For example, if this is 3rd level Rogue with Dex of 18 and a normal Reflex save of +7, his Reflex save becomes a -2 (-4 for losing his high Dex, and -5 for his effective Dex of 0).
And yes, people can move through his square. An enemy can even coup-de-grace him.
Note, that the character affected gets a new saving throw each round to break the effect, and once broken, the spell ends.
Master Arminas
Ok, I have bolded the relevant parts. If a spellcaster had silent, still, and eschew materials AND is either a spontaneous caster or had prepared a spell with silent and still (+2 effective level, remember), then yes, he could still cast while paralyzed.From PRD, Page 574.
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimming can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature--ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
Partially correct; you are quoting the paralyzed condition. Hold person makes you paralyzed, yes, but then goes onto say that that you "cannot take any actions." Hold person has more to it than just the paralyzed condition.
Ringtail, that is part of the spells description of the paralyzed condition.
cannot take any actions, not even speech
Speech is already prohibited by paralysis. So are swimming and flying and the taking of any action that are not purely mental. But both swimming and flying are talked about in the spell description as well. That appears, to me, at least, that the spell description is merely recapping the paralyzed condition. And since a paralyzed creature can take pureley mental actions, ergo, a creature held by hold person can take purely mental actions.
Master Arminas
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It tells you that you become paralyzed (then links to paralyzed). Next sentence of the spell's description. "cannot take any actions." Paralyzed says you can take purely mental actions. Hold person tells you that you can take no actions.
EDIT: Even if it is recapping major points of paralysis; the spell is more specific than the paralyzed condition. The spell says "cannot take any actions," and omits the "can take purely mental actions." The spell takes precedence. You "cannot not take any actions." I am willing to FAQ it however, if you'll join me.
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How do they make a reflex save without moving though? Even a rogue with good reflex scores without his dex can't dodge a fireball centered on him if he is paralyzed. We were basically ruling that it was more of an object than a creature for the duration of the spell.
-X
How do they make a reflex save without moving though? Even a rogue with good reflex scores without his dex can't dodge a fireball centered on him if he is paralyzed. We were basically ruling that it was more of an object than a creature for the duration of the spell.
-X
Reflex saves aren't merely diving out of the way. It is sort of an abstraction; reflex saves also involve luck (perhaps the brunt of the attack was deflected via terrain or the attack itself was "poorly aimed", or any number of other explanations depending on the situation). Being paralyzed drastically reduces your chance of success (-5 Dexterity modifier; OUCH!), and that represents loosing your ability dodge, jump, duck, weave, roll, etc.
Regarding the effect of the paralyzed condition on reflex saves, while the condition itself says "Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier)" wouldn't the modifier depend on the normal dexterity of the affected character? If a character has a Dexterity of 18, dropping from 18 to 0 would be a -9 to reflex saves. Or do the rules specify the -5 modifier to save the GM from having to compute the effect of the lower dexterity on the fly?
Regarding the effect of the paralyzed condition on reflex saves, while the condition itself says "Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier)" wouldn't the modifier depend on the normal dexterity of the affected character? If a character has a Dexterity of 18, dropping from 18 to 0 would be a -9 to reflex saves. Or do the rules specify the -5 modifier to save the GM from having to compute the effect of the lower dexterity on the fly?
Every ability score has a modifier attached to it. 12 is +1, 18 is +4. A score of 0 is a -5 ability score modifier. They are giving you the ability score modifier of that particular ability score, not the total change your character would receive (which depends on what his Dexterity score usually is).