Can anyone link or direct me to the location of where the rules talk about +(whatever) weapons overcoming as if silver/adamantine/etc?
God forbid it ever appear under Magic Weapons.
Thanks for the quick responses.
This is one addition to Pathfinder that I rather dislike. Sure, I understand the rationale (avoiding backpacks full of weapons), but it really makes many creatures a lot more mundane if you just need a +X weapon to whack at 'em, rather than having to actually target their true weakness.
I wish they hadn't bothered with this.
This is one addition to Pathfinder that I rather dislike.
It's not an "addition," it's a "reversion." In 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0, there was a reason why +5 swords had such a huge market price -- the DR penetration was worth a lot more than the numerical bonuses. In 3.5, the cost was totally unjustified.
I think it makes sense. It gives respect to adamantine (+4) but keeps with the theme that magic ultimately reigns supreme at +5.
And adamantine weapons still have their place -- after all the ignoring of hardness is still useful. The other materials make excellent back up weapons, and finally at lower levels it is simply to insanely expensive to expect to have a weapon of high enough bonus to rely on this.
Regardless of what you qualify it as, it means that you really don't need holy weapons to overcome the DR of devils, etc., which in my mind diminishes that aspect of the creature.
Regardless of what you qualify it as, it means that you really don't need holy weapons to overcome the DR of devils, etc., which in my mind diminishes that aspect of the creature.
Greater Penetrating strike.
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Regardless of what you qualify it as, it means that you really don't need holy weapons to overcome the DR of devils, etc., which in my mind diminishes that aspect of the creature.
You are right, you only need a +5 weapon to bypass alignment based DR, which can only be made by a character with a caster level of 15+, and has a purchase cost of 50,000 gp. Personally, the holy weapon (a minimum cost of 18,000 GP and a CL of only +3, since it can be +1 holy) is a much better deal and easier to get at lower levels..
It only diminishes stuff if you give out +5 weapons before about level 11 (at least in my opinion).
Regardless of what you qualify it as, it means that you really don't need holy weapons to overcome the DR of devils, etc., which in my mind diminishes that aspect of the creature.Greater Penetrating strike.
Or bless weapon, various oils, a handful of class abilities from Inq Mag Pal, etc.
I understand the point that you want DR to be meaningful, but there's a point where its a burdensome nerf to melee to require them to carry a golfbag of expensive weapons where casters can just switch their stuff up day by day for free.
Which is why I started by saying I understood the point.
I just don't agree with the result, despite the plethora of counter-examples :)
Which is why I started by saying I understood the point.
I just don't agree with the result, despite the plethora of counter-examples :)
I can totally understand your side. It's not the most elegant solution but it's the best one given the system.
I kind of miss 3.0, with stuff like "DR 20/+2," but sometimes part of me even more misses 1e, where essentially it was "DR infinite/+2." Materials-based DR was like throwing a bone to people who didn't have good enough weapons -- "You really need a +2 weapon to hurt those guys, but they REALLY hate silver, so I guess a silver weapon might work, too -- but just for them." Materials-based DR was secondary, rather than being a default.
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I kind of miss 3.0, with stuff like "DR 20/+2," but sometimes part of me even more misses 1e, where essentially it was "DR infinite/+2." Materials-based DR was like throwing a bone to people who didn't have good enough weapons -- "You really need a +2 weapon to hurt those guys, but they REALLY hate silver, so I guess a silver weapon might work, too -- but just for them." Materials-based DR was secondary, rather than being a default.
There was one 3.0 critter with DR 40/+2 at CR 5 or so. Jolly good times!
There was one 3.0 critter with DR 40/+2 at CR 5 or so. Jolly good times!
I like that because if you hit the critter and did no damage, the solution wasn't just "hit it a little harder."
Which is why I started by saying I understood the point.
I just don't agree with the result, despite the plethora of counter-examples :)
I'm with you gbonehead, and while I also understand the point, I don't agree with it either. :) It has made more than one combat with a given monster with a special material DR - lackluster - since the PCs had a weapon of the needed "+" to match the effectiveness of the special material.
Ah well, what'cha gonna do?
Dean
The one that bothers me the most are dragons -- seriously just any magic weapon can hurt them.
I would prefer a staggered DR where it's DR x/- and double against non-magical weapons or something.
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The one that bothers me the most are dragons -- seriously just any magic weapon can hurt them.
I would prefer a staggered DR where it's DR x/- and double against non-magical weapons or something.
Dragon DR /magic is there so that a bunch of moderately skilled peasants with bows/xbows won't two-round a dragon that's torching their town. :)
I don't mind magic overcoming special materials, since (as was said) they were originally intended to be secondary anyway -- and a very powerful magic sword is meant to be just that -- plus, when we say a +4 sword, it means +4, not +2, Flaming Burst -- so it gives people a reason to have expensive weapons (since, otherwise, the marginal +1 to hit and damage after is assuredly not worth the cost of entry after +1 or +2).
Having said all that, though, I I also miss the DR/+2, +3, etc. system instead of blanket DR/magic -- I find that it greatly weakens the value of DR/magic when just any +1 weapon can overcome it -- and it prevents you from having creatures that need truly powerful enchantments to hit unless you tie that to a special material (eg - Iron Golems used to need +3 weapons, back in the day) -- I always thought that a stepped system made much, much more sense and allowed DR/magic to grow with the challenge of the characters.
I don't mind magic overcoming special materials, since (as was said) they were originally intended to be secondary anyway -- and a very powerful magic sword is meant to be just that -- plus, when we say a +4 sword, it means +4, not +2, Flaming Burst -- so it gives people a reason to have expensive weapons (since, otherwise, the marginal +1 to hit and damage after is assuredly not worth the cost of entry after +1 or +2).
Actually, the straight +1 bonuses are better than most other things you can put on a weapon, because they boost your to-hit. And nothing else matters if you miss. High level fighters who only miss if they roll a 1 (or a 5 on their last attack) would benefit less from it than a rogue of the same level, but for most characters that +1 to hit is quite significant. Also, the +4 weapon and the +2 flaming burst weapon would have the same cost, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
Having said all that, though, I I also miss the DR/+2, +3, etc. system instead of blanket DR/magic -- I find that it greatly weakens the value of DR/magic when just any +1 weapon can overcome it -- and it prevents you from having creatures that need truly powerful enchantments to hit unless you tie that to a special material (eg - Iron Golems used to need +3 weapons, back in the day) -- I always thought that a stepped system made much, much more sense and allowed DR/magic to grow with the challenge of the characters.
I agree. DR/magic is effectively useless after APL 5 or so. I'd love to see a system where DR was based on +bonus, and it was just applied repeatedly for each step below the required bonus you had. So DR 10/+3 would be DR 0 against a +3 weapon, DR 10 against a +2 weapon, DR 20 against a +1 weapon, and DR 30 against nonmagical weapons.
3.0 made it "You can't hurt this monster if your weapon isn't good enough", which was quite frustrating for a number of builds (TWF comes to mind - twice the weapon cost, and Dex based so no strength to power through it). By keeping the numbers as they are now (DR 5, DR 10, DR 15, and very rarely a DR 20), but applying it repeatedly, you can power through easier the closer you are to meeting the requirement, but the monster is still protected against attacks that are too weak.
I don't mind magic overcoming special materials, since (as was said) they were originally intended to be secondary anyway -- and a very powerful magic sword is meant to be just that -- plus, when we say a +4 sword, it means +4, not +2, Flaming Burst -- so it gives people a reason to have expensive weapons (since, otherwise, the marginal +1 to hit and damage after is assuredly not worth the cost of entry after +1 or +2).Actually, the straight +1 bonuses are better than most other things you can put on a weapon, because they boost your to-hit. And nothing else matters if you miss. High level fighters who only miss if they roll a 1 (or a 5 on their last attack) would benefit less from it than a rogue of the same level, but for most characters that +1 to hit is quite significant. Also, the +4 weapon and the +2 flaming burst weapon would have the same cost, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
See, I'd take +1 holy over +3, if not for the DR-piercing -- against evil foes, you still get +3 to hit (total), and instead of +2 dam, you get +2d6. But that's me.
And the point was that a +2 flaming burst can't bypass material DR when a +4 can -- so if you want to get past DR, and still have flaming burst, you're looking at +6, total.
Having said all that, though, I I also miss the DR/+2, +3, etc. system instead of blanket DR/magic -- I find that it greatly weakens the value of DR/magic when just any +1 weapon can overcome it -- and it prevents you from having creatures that need truly powerful enchantments to hit unless you tie that to a special material (eg - Iron Golems used to need +3 weapons, back in the day) -- I always thought that a stepped system made much, much more sense and allowed DR/magic to grow with the challenge of the characters.I agree. DR/magic is effectively useless after APL 5 or so. I'd love to see a system where DR was based on +bonus, and it was just applied repeatedly for each step below the required bonus you had. So DR 10/+3 would be DR 0 against a +3 weapon, DR 10 against a +2 weapon, DR 20 against a +1 weapon, and DR 30 against nonmagical weapons.
3.0 made it "You can't hurt this monster if your weapon isn't good enough", which was quite frustrating for a number of builds (TWF comes to mind - twice the weapon cost, and Dex based so no strength to power...
Exactly -- which is why I like a stepped system -- for instance, you could reduce the DR/magic by 5 per weapon plus. So, then, DR 15/magic was DR 10 vs. +1, DR 5 vs +2, and no resistance after that.
it gives people a reason to have expensive weapons (since, otherwise, the marginal +1 to hit and damage after is assuredly not worth the cost of entry after +1 or +2).
The math disagrees with you. Hitting is more important than damage, because if you don't hit you do 0. I used to feel the same way until I really looked at it. :)
Same here, until I realized that hitting a lot and dealing crappy damage leads you to death. :)it gives people a reason to have expensive weapons (since, otherwise, the marginal +1 to hit and damage after is assuredly not worth the cost of entry after +1 or +2).The math disagrees with you. Hitting is more important than damage, because if you don't hit you do 0. I used to feel the same way until I really looked at it. :)
As does hitting seldom and hitting for over 9000.
Flaming for example. Compared to a weapon with just +1 hit/dmg it has -5% chance to hit, and a +2.5 average damage, which creatures can easily be immune or resistant to. Anything with fire resist 5 will laugh at your flaming weapon.As a preemptive response to Tilnar, Holy is one of the only exceptions I'd make to my rule of thumb and an excellent choice. Nonetheless it is only worthwhile if you are fighting evil creatures to the exclusion of all else. Not necessarily a rare thing in D&D, but it's nonetheless not a guarantee.
Keen is another one that is worth the price IF you're a crit build and/or using a high crit weapon. There's very little else in my opinion that is.
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3.0 damage values were way out of wack... it was DR infinite if you didn't have the right weapon. From 3.5 on however 15 was by and large the top damage value to bypass which for most martial classes shouldn't be too hard at the proper levels.
I'm with Abraham on DRx/magic for Dragons. There should be a breakdown by HD or age category. Alignment, special material, and weapon damage type DR have their place though, an homage to folklore. I don't think basic pluses should bypass that need.
And I've never agreed with the golfbag of weapons theory. Every PC should have a backup weapon and a ranged weapon. If your backups just happen to be different damage type & material than your primary then its gravy. Having some way to bypass alignment in the party is helpful too (scrolls of align weapon, bless weapon oils, etc).
--Vrock, paper, scissors