I think that it's a bit wrong to call it "anti-Dark Tapestry"...the Dark Tapestry essentially is everything in the Material Plane that isn't Golarion's solar system. Yeah, there's a lot of freaky wierd and malign stuff out there, but there is stuff out there that's benign as well, or at least not overtly manevolent.Actually, not quite true.
The Dark Tapestry is NOT the "rest of the universe" at all. What exactly it is, we haven't completely set in stone yet in print... but one way to think of it is that it's the parts of the universe that galaxes are afraid to go—it's the darkest corners of reality, where few stars shine and strange unseen things rule in their stead.
So it's where the Reaper fleet is waiting to wipe out organic life?
Creative Director
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So it's where the Reaper fleet is waiting to wipe out organic life?I think that it's a bit wrong to call it "anti-Dark Tapestry"...the Dark Tapestry essentially is everything in the Material Plane that isn't Golarion's solar system. Yeah, there's a lot of freaky wierd and malign stuff out there, but there is stuff out there that's benign as well, or at least not overtly manevolent.Actually, not quite true.
The Dark Tapestry is NOT the "rest of the universe" at all. What exactly it is, we haven't completely set in stone yet in print... but one way to think of it is that it's the parts of the universe that galaxes are afraid to go—it's the darkest corners of reality, where few stars shine and strange unseen things rule in their stead.
Yup. That's an excellent example.
The actual example in my mind is that it's the portion of space where Azathoth is located, along with all the similar locations in the universe where the Great Old Ones or Outer Gods rule.
Personally I think it would kind of be funny to see one of these 'dark tapestry' creatures that react to human(oid)s the way human(oid)s react to most dark tapestry creatures.
"AHSSJENWERL MY BRAIINNNE>SLEKRNQ!"
Bonus points if they are the good guys of the dark tapestry -- double points if they explode like anti matter on contact with human(oid)s.
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Bonus points if they are the good guys of the dark tapestry -- double points if they explode like anti matter on contact with human(oid)s.
Logically, a creature whose PH is high (or low) enough that is naturally acidic, would find a human being equally corrosove to the touch.
It would be kind of funky for some tentacle beasty to have a natural +1d6 acid damage to it's touch attacks, but *also* take +1d6 acid damage when it's touched by air, or people, or this or that type of metal.
Or, like an aboleth, it might have a 'protective coating' that is toxic or dangerous to normal life, but is primarily a defensive / utility feature that allows it to survive in our otherwise inhospitable environment. An aura of 'my corrosive/toxic homeworld environment' or 'the heat of my home plane of fire' or 'darkness, because light pains us' would be kinda common, but there's tons of other options.
For instance, a Dark Tapestry critter that cannot abide the touch of air, and is surrounded by a constant whirlwind two squares out, of the air that is being repelled away from it, and a state of vacuum inside the whirlwind (it's own squares and those adjacent) could be a freaky encounter. You have to punch through the whirlwind to get to it, and then survive the vacuum!
If you do manage to punch through it's air-repelling aura, say with a control winds spell, to temporarily shut it down or overwhelm it, the touch of air causes the creature to combust, taking damage as if it was standing in a bonfire!
Same with negative energy. Occasionlly the *flavor* of negative energy suggests that it is incompatible with positive energy, but the *mechanics* often seem to favor negative energy empowered creatures *eating* positive energy empowered life, which doesn't fit the flavor at all (negative energy creatures both crave for sustenance and antithetically loathe the living? That's like me hating bacon. Not gonna happen!). A creature of pure negative energy might *loathe* positive energy so much that the touch of a living creature would actually cause it pain and discomfort. Instead of having the usual touch-attack-what-hurts people, it would float above the fight using a gaze weapon or spells or something, doing all in it's power to avoid ever physically making contact with a living creature.
Yeah that's the sort of thing that would be neat to see.
Would the Riftwardens oppose these Outer/Elder/Dark Tapestry beings?
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Creative Director
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Would the Riftwardens oppose these Outer/Elder/Dark Tapestry beings?
Not really... the Riftwardens are more about protecting the Material Plane from "contamination" from the other planes. Since the Dark Tapestry and its minions are in fact denizens of the Material Plane for the most part, the Riftwardens wouldn't be particularly eager to "waste" some of their resources going after those threats. Unless, of course, they were causing some sort of extraplanar type disturbances or abusing portals or the like... which some of those entities do quite often...
Would the Riftwardens oppose these Outer/Elder/Dark Tapestry beings?Not really... the Riftwardens are more about protecting the Material Plane from "contamination" from the other planes. Since the Dark Tapestry and its minions are in fact denizens of the Material Plane for the most part, the Riftwardens wouldn't be particularly eager to "waste" some of their resources going after those threats. Unless, of course, they were causing some sort of extraplanar type disturbances or abusing portals or the like... which some of those entities do quite often...
I like answers that start with a 'not really' but end with a 'kinda yes' :p
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Speaking only for myself, I think some things that should be philosophically neutral (mindless undead and Lovecraftian horrors specifically) get labelled evil because the game includes good-aligned clerics and paladins as protagonist options. Or rather, it seems really weird that Smite Evil won't wallop a zombie, and odd that "The Power of Sarenrae Compels you" won't help banish Cthulu (in a game where the PCs are meant to win, at least. I realize the great old ones couldn't care less about mortal religion.) And similarly, that the apocalypse cult that worships the Great Old Ones and seeks to bring about the end of the world would be populated by evil cultists.
Also, even though god stat blocks have alignments, that's the alignment that mortals have to be within one step of to receive magic, not necessarily the alignment of the deity itself. Perhaps the "Gods" of the dark tapestry are Neutral, but only Evil mortals are of such a mindset necessary to devote themselves and receive magic in return.
With positive/negative energy there is no need for mindless undead to be evil, they are just powered by the wrong juice.
Your followers vs gods alignment view i think is dead on, the god thing might not know what it is doing but the humans DO
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Same with negative energy. Occasionlly the *flavor* of negative energy suggests that it is incompatible with positive energy, but the *mechanics* often seem to favor negative energy empowered creatures *eating* positive energy empowered life, which doesn't fit the flavor at all (negative energy creatures both crave for sustenance and antithetically loathe the living? That's like me hating bacon. Not gonna happen!). A creature of pure negative energy might *loathe* positive...
I see that as negative energy making a "hole" that the creature wants to fill with killing creatures that have a tiny bit of positive energy (material plane life) and positive energy attacks flood the hole and blow it open.
To the OP:
Do you own the Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations?
There are several organizations you can quickly convert and insert. Most come with Prestige classes, but you can always ignore those...or adjust them.
Circle of the True/the Abolishers - Druids vs Aberrants.
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign: Spellcasters against Aberrants,especially those from off-plane. Cerulean = Elder Sign types.
Society of the Sanctified Mind: Psionicists/Priests against Aberrants.
The Holy Order of the Supernal Topaz Defenders: Topaz Guardians, LG knights and paladins against Aberrants.
The latter two are particularly appropriate for PF Inquisitors going after infiltrating aberrant influence, and a perfect place for INquisitors of Desna to, erm, shine.
===Aelryinth
So, Earth. Since it seems to have an inordinate amount of Great Old Ones taking a nap on it as well as an Outer God that takes a perverse interest in it.
Or, to tie in all of D&D lore, Eberron. I had an Eberron campaign that run under the premise that the system (or crystal sphere) was Tharizduns prison. That's why the world isn't accessible by planar travel.
As for more mundane organisations fighting the agents of the Tapestry, in my Golarion, the elves will oppose them. They distrust all arcane magic, since they now that the Aboleths taught it to mankind. That's why all elves are psionic creatures. :D
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Perhaps an interesting question might be, how do other factions, specifically extraplanar ones, view the ancient entities of the Dark Tapestry? The Fae of the First World, the Aeons, the Daemons? Curious to how that interaction might go - how do the Horseman or any particular Demon Lord feel about something like a Great Old One, or even an outer God?
Probably creeped out by it and driven insane. Huh, that sounds
kind of familiar...
Since it is kinda hinted (or rather stated I can never really tell) that Zon-Kuthon was warped and twisted by the Dark Tapestry, I can see Shelyn having a pretty strong disdain for anything Dark Tapestry.
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I still personally think that Dou Bral's indwelling is a deity-level kyton instead of an Outer God.I didn't say Outer God. I actually erroneously said Elder Thing, but I meant Yithian.
Ah. I knew Elder Thing was wrong, but Elder God didn't work either... But in the end, I default to "Non-Lovecraftian."
I still personally think that Dou Bral's indwelling is a deity-level kyton instead of an Outer God.
There's a definite link there, but it might be the other way around. Remember, Zon-Kuthon was bound to the Shadow Plane (where kytons are from) in the way-back. Maybe he made them in his own image.
I haven't really played any other tabletop besides Pathfinder, so all of the talk about Lovecraft is making it difficult for me to understand what a lot of people are saying. So is the Dark Tapestry inspired or influenced by the "Outer ones" or "Great Old ones" of Lovecraft? And for that matter could someone point me to a location where I could read about the lore of Lovecraft? Its kinda difficult to try to make sense of some of the posts without the exact context of what exactly the difference is between and "Elder god" and an "Outer god".
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The best way to learn about the lore of Lovecraft is to read the writings of the man himself. Local library probably has some of his books. There's also the Call of Cthulhu RPG, which is a brilliant RPG itself (I prefer it to Pathfinder on a mechanical level as well). This RPG is where most of us get the "categories" of different Mythos entities...Lovecraft himself didn't really assign categories to them, as such. Anyhow, a slight cheat-sheet:
Outer Gods - These are the most powerful entities known to exist. They are well beyond the comprehension of mortals, and simply seeing them in their true form will destroy someone's sanity.
Great Old Ones - These are incredibly powerful alien god-things. The closest equivalent in D&D terms would probably be demon lords or archdevils.
Elder Gods - These are the gods of mankind and similar creatures. Some may be "good" or "evil", but they are closer to mankind than the Outer Gods or the Great Old Ones. In terms of Pathfinder, this would essentially be all the other gods.
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I remember the Call of Cthulhu d20 write up on Azathoth with his 2,666 HP and his 42d12 'squamous blast' attack and Alter Reality ability which could mimic any spell in existence. I'd use that as a summoned avatar as opposed to the Nuclear Chaos Itself. And they wondered why all those Floating Cities fell.
Outer Gods - These are the most powerful entities known to exist. They are well beyond the comprehension of mortals, and simply seeing them in their true form will destroy someone's sanity.
Great Old Ones - These are incredibly powerful alien god-things. The closest equivalent in D&D terms would probably be demon lords or archdevils.
Elder Gods - These are the gods of mankind and similar creatures. Some may be "good" or "evil", but they are closer to mankind than the Outer Gods or the Great Old Ones. In terms of Pathfinder, this would essentially be all the other gods.
That helps a lot thanks.
I remember the Call of Cthulhu d20 write up on Azathoth with his 2,666 HP and his 42d12 'squamous blast' attack and Alter Reality ability which could mimic any spell in existence. I'd use that as a summoned avatar as opposed to the Nuclear Chaos Itself. And they wondered why all those Floating Cities fell.
I may have to check out CoC now, I always wanted to see some of the individual stats for some of Pathfinder's Great old ones.
I'd assume they would need a bit of tweaking for PF, but a lot of them would still stick as You Lose type things if they show up in game.
Oh yeah it would be near impossible no doubt, something akin to the tarrasque or maybe even the mantis god.
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I'd assume they would need a bit of tweaking for PF, but a lot of them would still stick as You Lose type things if they show up in game.Oh yeah it would be near impossible no doubt, something akin to the tarrasque or maybe even the mantis god.
H. P. (Howard Phillips) Lovecraft mostly wrote short stories, with some novellas-- just about all of which have been put together in various anthologies, and a lot of his work (in the form of those anthologies) is still in print. All these posts on the subject are good... but if ya wanna know, you really should take the time to read Lovecraft himself (he's been dead a long time, but the stories are still pretty good)-- don't just look at the games based on his work.
The stories written by other authors more or less trying to carry on the "Cthulhu Mythos" (particularly August Derleth) are much more of a mixed-bag, 'take it or leave it, makes no difference' sort of thing though (IMO).
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I actually like using some of the weirder stuff Lovecraft liked and his personal spirit in terms of his writing, in games. The focus the games put on the 'GOOs' (hurl at the acronym) and other beasties isn't actually that cool to me. Now, including them in Pathfinder is altogether awesome considering - but Lovecraft's real useful and awesome stuff comes from his subtlety, in my opinion. Creating nostalgia, alienation, fading the reality of dreams and reality, and that lurking fear beneath good and evil - that's great in a game.
The game I am doing now is a dynamic atmosphere. On one hand, it's role-play oriented fantasy, but just as often, dark and weird things happen to the characters, they stumble upon unexplainable and strange secrets that are never fully explained, and run across wrongness from time to time, building towards an unknown conclusion for both the fantasy plots and the Lovecraftian ones. A side of black-and-white, of victory and manageable struggle, vs. a theme of lurking horror that makes little sane sense yet doesn't ever quite go away, get figured out, or fit in with the rest of the normal world and mechanics of Golarion and the characters adventures.
And I like Ghouls. In my Golarion, Ghouls meep. And their tunnels are really long and sometimes lead to strange and unforeseeable graveyards in strange lands unmarked on any map. >:)
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I remember the Call of Cthulhu d20 write up on Azathoth with his 2,666 HP and his 42d12 'squamous blast' attack and Alter Reality ability which could mimic any spell in existence. I'd use that as a summoned avatar as opposed to the Nuclear Chaos Itself. And they wondered why all those Floating Cities fell.I may have to check out CoC now, I always wanted to see some of the individual stats for some of Pathfinder's Great old ones.
Call of Cthulhu d20 might be pretty hard to find these days. But the BRP version has a LOT more support, anyhow.