Our group has a weapon of +2 Bane vs. Outsider and have recently traveled to a layer of the Abyss. We were informed by our GM in a fight that the weapon's Bane quality won't work on this plane because this is the demons home plane and they are not considered 'outsiders' here.
I thought this ruling of the bane quality may be in error so I did a little research. I could not find either support nor denial of this ruling.
Under bane it says:
'A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than it's actual bonus.It also deals an extra 2d6 points damage against the foe.'
The only thing I could find for defining an outsider was in the Bestiary.
Under Outsider is says:
'Unlike most living creatures an outsider does not have a dual nature - it's soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.'
Also under outsider:
'An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the material plane.'
Am I missing something? Does a bane vs. outsider weapon loose it usefulness on outer planes? Or should they retain their quality for those who travel to the outer planes?
Thanks for the help in advance.
No it wouldn't. That weapon is keyed to do extra damage to a certain creature type, no matter what plane it hits them on.
This is like saying a paladin's smite doesn't work in hell.
Unfortunately your DM has ruled otherwise.
This is a case of someone overthinking something. I'd ask him what creature type demons possess while in the Abyss :)
The weapon should work on the one sub type of outsider it is keyed to on any plane. What sub type is the bane weapon? Or is this a custom enchantment that works on any outsider provided it is not on it's home plane?
I think it's a bane vs. outsider (demons) staff enchanted on both ends. It's from the Shackled City APG. It's a named item though I can't think of it now.
This makes me want to get a weapon with Bane for Outsider(native) on a high level plane shifting character.
Yeah, just to add another voice of confirmation, creatures on their home plane would cease being Extraplanar, but they could still be Outsiders.
Yeah it works. Think about this; if the item were a Bane (outsider, native), then it would work only when NOT on the Prime Material; what would be the point of such a weapon?
Unless your contention would be that even outsider gains the native subtype when on their own plane, making the above named weapon the only weapon to have when you're plane-hopping.
|
GM is wrong. Look at the spell required for the construction of the weapon. Summon Monster. The enchantment is keyed to the type of creature, not to the plane. Now, if the sword was the Sword of Planes, where it's bonuses against outsiders were keyed to the plane the sword was being used on, he would've been closer to being correct.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
Our group has a weapon of +2 Bane vs. Outsider and have recently traveled to a layer of the Abyss. We were informed by our GM in a fight that the weapon's Bane quality won't work on this plane because this is the demons home plane and they are not considered 'outsiders' here.
I thought this ruling of the bane quality may be in error so I did a little research. I could not find either support nor denial of this ruling.
Under bane it says:
'A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than it's actual bonus.It also deals an extra 2d6 points damage against the foe.'The only thing I could find for defining an outsider was in the Bestiary.
Under Outsider is says:
'Unlike most living creatures an outsider does not have a dual nature - it's soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.'
Also under outsider:
'An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the material plane.'Am I missing something? Does a bane vs. outsider weapon loose it usefulness on outer planes? Or should they retain their quality for those who travel to the outer planes?
Thanks for the help in advance.
Your answer to your questions is in your post (bold mine).
An Outsider, by game definition, is composed of the essence of some plane other than the material plane. This means that your Bane (Outsider) weapon will work on any creature that meets that definition. There is no limitation indicating that the physical location of the Outsider has any bearing on the Bane ability, nor does the physical location of the creature have any bearing on the creature type.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some mistake I've found in this thread:
1. There is no such thing as an outsider-bane weapon. You must choose a subtype, such as outsider (evil), outsider (earth), etc.
2. Bane weapons work regardless of what plane they are on.
3. Outsiders on their home plane are NOT native outsiders, nor do they become native outsiders. They ARE native to their plane, but that is different from being a native outsider (which is a specific subtype that means they have an unusually close connection to the material plane).
4. Creatures (of any kind) only gain the extraplanar subtype when away from their home plane. While adventuring on the evil outsider's plane, your entire party is considered extraplanar, and may therefor be banished.
|
Some mistake I've found in this thread:
1. There is no such thing as an outsider-bane weapon. You must choose a subtype, such as outsider (evil), outsider (earth), etc.
Indeed - I've just been through this myself. I decided to choose Bane Outsider (Extraplanar), and cross my fingers that we did not get sucked into Hell.
If the weapon is indeed Bane Outsider, then congrats to the OP - the GM has allowed something far more broad than the rules intend.
I would have ruled the same way as the OP's GM. To do otherwise makes it stupid to choose something like Bane (Devils).
Indeed - I've just been through this myself. I decided to choose Bane Outsider (Extraplanar), and cross my fingers that we did not get sucked into Hell.If the weapon is indeed Bane Outsider, then congrats to the OP - the GM has allowed something far more broad than the rules intend.
Choosing Outsider (Extraplanar) is almost just as broad, and though apparently legal, shouldn't be allowed. That would work against every outsider not on their home plane. Really, that is just as broad as an Outsider Bane weapon, with the exception it doesn't work on the creatures home plane. Its basically what the OPs DM thinks the bane weapon is.
Hmmm.... I may have been mistaken on what the weapon actually is. We had a discussion about the bane quality on outer planes and it was my assumption that the staff's magical ability is what was being discussed.
I am not the user of the weapon but it's my hope that the player will post on this thread to clarify about the staff's abilities (as explained by our DM). I told him about the thread today in the hopes he will join the discussion.
Even if I am wrong about the staff's powers, I'm glad I posted this thread. It's been interesting to see the individual points of view from a rather diverse player base. :)
|
Actually that is how it worked in 3E, <depending on the actual Bane property> (though PF has left out a lot of the material for things like that). An Outsider was not an an Extraplanar creature on their native plane, could not be banished, summoned, etc. . .
A similar thing happened with Ghosts (and incorporeal) in Pathfinder, where there are no rules about the being on two seperate planes at once, so some affects now don't work the same (like Antimagic and certain planer lockdowns).
Hmmm.... I may have been mistaken on what the weapon actually is. We had a discussion about the bane quality on outer planes and it was my assumption that the staff's magical ability is what was being discussed.
I am not the user of the weapon but it's my hope that the player will post on this thread to clarify about the staff's abilities (as explained by our DM). I told him about the thread today in the hopes he will join the discussion.Even if I am wrong about the staff's powers, I'm glad I posted this thread. It's been interesting to see the individual points of view from a rather diverse player base. :)
The staff is the one that Elven_blades posted a spoiler to. It is a + 1/1 staff of evil outsider bane. The DM say's it has lost the bane vrs. outsiders because we are now in the abyss, and they are no longer outsiders. So one person pointed out that they are now native yet remain outsiders.
Some mistake I've found in this thread:
1. There is no such thing as an outsider-bane weapon. You must choose a subtype, such as outsider (evil), outsider (earth), etc.
Indeed - I've just been through this myself. I decided to choose Bane Outsider (Extraplanar), and cross my fingers that we did not get sucked into Hell.
If the weapon is indeed Bane Outsider, then congrats to the OP - the GM has allowed something far more broad than the rules intend.
I would have ruled the same way as the OP's GM. To do otherwise makes it stupid to choose something like Bane (Devils).
The subtype is (evil)outsiders. So would you still have ruled that the weapon does not function as a bane weapon if we are now in the abyss fighting demons?,
An outsider is an outsider, your characters did not stop being humanoids, and the demons did not stop being outsiders. Your weapon should work, if not, then your characters cannot be treated as humanoid for the purposes of spells and effect, for fair play.
I think I will start with this arguement.
|
|
I can see it either way. In 3E, Outsiders where litterally a soul (and body entwined) comprised of the very essence of their plane. They where outside the normal physicals and logic of the material plane, which the game is based upon, just like Elementals (essentually Outsiders of the Elemental planes), and Native Outsiders (which are parts of the material plane, more similar to mortal humanoids, but still something different.
It has always been an issue when plane-hopping has come up. Personally, I like the idea of the human adventures becoming the Outsiders, and the dmeons and devils not at all being affected by Outsider Bane weapons on their "material plane". I can also see it going the way you guys are suggesting (but that is mostly from a rules perspective, not fun/rp/logic one, so much. <Not saying your wrong or insulting the idea.>
I think I just fell to a sucubus who dominated me while in this abysmal plane. So We shoud have come up with that arguement. I think the thing that bothers me is the Staff was just introduced before we took this trip to the abyss (makes you think it might have been meant for this part of the ap)and now it is next to worthless. If it didn't have the blessed quality to give the good discriptor for damage reduction it would be just extra baggage.
If we (the PCs) are now the 'outsiders' when traveling to other planes, then the denizens that are native to those outer planes become what?
Instead of evil (outsider) they are evil (native) on their home plane?
I didn't see a 'native' option on the bane categories list in the CRB.
|
|
The subtype is (evil)outsiders. So would you still have ruled that the weapon does not function as a bane weapon if we are now in the abyss fighting demons?,Some mistake I've found in this thread:
1. There is no such thing as an outsider-bane weapon. You must choose a subtype, such as outsider (evil), outsider (earth), etc.
Indeed - I've just been through this myself. I decided to choose Bane Outsider (Extraplanar), and cross my fingers that we did not get sucked into Hell.
If the weapon is indeed Bane Outsider, then congrats to the OP - the GM has allowed something far more broad than the rules intend.
I would have ruled the same way as the OP's GM. To do otherwise makes it stupid to choose something like Bane (Devils).
If it's Bane Outsiders [Evil] then it works just fine on [Evil] demons on their home plane.
If it's Bane Outsiders [Extraplanar] then it doesn't.
This is what I believe also. The traveling PCs gain the extraplanar subtype but the outsiders subtype remains the same and therefore subject to the bane (outsider) weapon bonuses. Even though the PCs are on the outsider's home plane.
Tell the DM/GM to read the rules.
Or to stop nerfing/trolling you.
Tell the DM/GM to read the rules.
Or to stop nerfing/trolling you.
This.