This may be a simple question. Might even be one that was asked before. If so, I apologize, as there are a lot of threads to wade through.
If a creature with grab; such as, say, a large-sized constrictor snake drops in on and successfully grabs another creature, say, a medium-sized human... can the constrictor snake attempt to pin the human, while still doing grab damage (and constrict damage, because it has that ability too?)
Or does the constrictor snake need to use the Damage Other grapple option to damage its opponent?
Intuitively, it seems like it should be able to pin and damage its opponent at the same time because that's what constrictor snakes /do./ They don't let their prey fight back, they pin them down immobile and squeeze the life out of them.
It seems to many predators' disadvantage to grapple someone and make CMB checks at them if their foe can make full attacks back at them while only taking a -2 to hit. Grant you, constrictor snakes only have one attack, and this would allow them to double their damage output, but for creatures like giant octopi or giant squid, it seems like there'd be a better use of their time... like making full attacks back.
Also, the grab rules don't state what a creature with grab must be doing with the grapple in order to deal damage, simply that "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well ."
As far as I can tell by reading the rules, a creature with grab can pin (or do whatever it likes with a grapple) and deal grab and constrict damage at the same time.
Am I reading it wrong, or have I got the rules right?
You need to use the damage option to deal grab damage. However, constriction damage works on ANY successful grapple check. Therefore you can deal grab damage and constriction damage simultaneously, or pin someone and deal constriction damage at the same time.
Ravingdork, how does that coincide with the current wording of the Grab ability?
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Because it sounds like to me the critter should deal the damage just based on the grapple check itself.
Ravingdork, how does that coincide with the current wording of the Grab ability?
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Because it sounds like to me the critter should deal the damage just based on the grapple check itself.
I believe you are unintentionally taking it out of context.
That only applies when you are holding a creature, i.e., when you take the -20 penalty to not be considered grappled yourself.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Notice how the highlighted areas keep referencing holds, not grapples?
Well, I'm glad to see constrict functions on any grapple check, no matter what kind, otherwise pinning to keep opponents from fighting back... which is what most constrictor predators do... would be pointless.
Also, I'm kind of embarrassed that I hadn't thought to check under the entry for constrict until you made me think of it, Ravingdork. Thanks!
Quote: "With this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack."
Ravingdork,
The grapple rules use the term 'hold" as a synonym for a successful grapple. It isn't something separate related to the -20 option of grab.
"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Well, I'm glad to see constrict functions on any grapple check, no matter what kind, otherwise pinning to keep opponents from fighting back... which is what most constrictor predators do... would be pointless.
Also, I'm kind of embarrassed that I hadn't thought to check under the entry for constrict until you made me think of it, Ravingdork. Thanks!
Quote: "With this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack."
Yep. Back in the day, James Jacobs was kind enough to make that quite clear:
Constriction damage does indeed kick in as soon as the CMB check to grab the target is successful.
It was later added to the official FAQ.
Ravingdork,
The grapple rules use the term 'hold" as a synonym for a successful grapple. It isn't something separate related to the -20 option of grab."If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
** spoiler omitted **
That still doesn't change the fact that the Grab ability's text is stated in the context of taking the -20 option.
Nevertheless, I shall look into this issue further.
EDIT: After spending over an hour pouring through rules minutiae and developer forum posts, I could not find anything more to support either side of the argument.
It looks like a normal grapple, Character makes the grapple check as a standard action then maintains the grapple in subsequent turns.
On those turns the character can move the target, pin the target, or damage the target, dealing unarmed strike damage (1d4?)
Creature with Grab deals the damage associated with the limb with the Grab ability, so if you have a bite that does 2d6+1.5str and have grab, it does 2d6+1.5str instead of 1d4+str.
I'd wager that Grab damage should only happen when the character with grab deals damage and not when they pin or move the target.
A grab just allows you to do a grapple as a free action with a bonus.
Whenever you maintain the grapple you have choices to make:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
As shown above the damage must be consciously chosen. The constrict damage is from a separate ability and is automatic however.
That is correct he either chooses to damage and gets 2d4+8 or gets 1d4+4.
As far as bonuses to the grapple on round 2 he gets his normal grapple check and the +5 because the opponent did not escape on the first round of the grapple. The bonus from grab only applies to the initial grapple check, not to ones in the later rounds.
I don't know what the snake's base grapple check is because I did not look it up so I can't give you the exact numbers.
I did not know they got it to maintain. I guess I stand corrected, thanks.