|
WANTED
The Murderous Hobos
for
Killing five guardsmen
Sinking of The Coral Star
Creating Undead
Sinking of The Maiden of Cheliax
Arson of The Nag's Head Bar
Escape from His Majesty's Prison
Slaying of six Royal Prison Guards
Murder of a Brave Citizen
Destruction of a Regiment
Destruction of Castle SuperiorREWARD
15,000 gp
.
.
Add thieft of treasure and money to explain why the reward isn't higher?!.
Because the King is cheap?
I am not joking or being sarcastic when I say that it seems to me there ought to be a close thread button that appears after so many pages. Reading the last few, this thread really doesn't seem to have anything left to offer but the same old angry misunderstandings and play style arguments falsely posited as "rules."
Don't you guys get bored spinning your wheels the same way all the time?
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Sometimes, but then TOZ posts something and I feel like either it's not hopeless, or I want to throw a frying pan at him. Either way, I feel like soldiering on.
:)
I am not joking or being sarcastic when I say that it seems to me there ought to be a close thread button that appears after so many pages.
We have this (sort of). If you look at the forum view, every thread has a little '∅' next to it (at the far right.)
If you click this link, you will no longer see that thread when you're logged in.
|
|
I am not joking or being sarcastic when I say that it seems to me there ought to be a close thread button that appears after so many pages.We have this (sort of). If you look at the forum view, every thread has a little '∅' next to it (at the far right.)
If you click this link, you will no longer see that thread when you're logged in.
I was so happy when I discovered that feature.
Because the King is cheap?
.
.That's why one should work for an Empire.
.
.
Sometimes, but then TOZ posts something and I feel like either it's not hopeless, or I want to throw a frying pan at him. Either way, I feel like soldiering on.
:)
Throwing a frying pan at TOZ is never hopeless.
Now, agonizing over Superstar ... that's hopeless :)
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Hey there, mdt. Just wanted to chime in, as I usually enjoy your posts. Suspect you're aware of this, but I'm fairly sure that AF is just trolling you by now.
If this is spawning over several threads... Not worth it, and I'd hate to see things going this far, with this high of upset or temper in other threads.
Anyhow, just pointing this out as once we get into things, they can be somewhat hard to see. That's what this looks like to me, though. And I could be wrong, you know?
Hey Ruggs,
It's possible, but I don't think so. I think the last couple were more tongue in cheek than anything else.
But yeah, I'm one of those OC personalities that get's into the details and digs and digs and sometimes I don't look up to see how far down I'm digging. :) So thanks for the heads up!
Hey Ruggs,
It's possible, but I don't think so. I think the last couple were more tongue in cheek than anything else.But yeah, I'm one of those OC personalities that get's into the details and digs and digs and sometimes I don't look up to see how far down I'm digging. :) So thanks for the heads up!
Well I did some trolling in the middle... if trolling is the right word for it.
Merely I pointed out weaknesses of the system by which it is clear that this system currently in charge doesn't work at all. ( I still have to chuckle at the true neutral cleric healing his party with channel energy every day and who has to slay a whole town of civilians every few months just to keep his alignment neutral)But for the Fighter against the army... unless they have something flying too he can just drop arrows from like high above ;).
The enemy can't fire back and you just have to have enough arrows with you :D
All the examples change once we use a full party against a big army though. If those do it right the army doesn't stand too much of a chance...
Oh and a Roc could carry a siege engine and those have really good range increments... so you can fire from really far away with those ;) (not mentioning that actually spotting something on 1000 ft is like +100 to the perception DC xD)
I am still not sture why we are discussing the party vs army thingy :D
The fighter doesn't even need flying. Once he hits...oh...10th level or so, he can just walk into the enemies' ranks with impunity. The wizard and cleric cast invisibly, fly, and start dropping bombs from above (or summons, so they don't have to use greater invisibility). The rouge effortlessly sneaks into the enemy command tent and assassinates their entire staff.
I once threw about 25 goblins in a nice block because the wizard wanted to roast some goblins. It was fun to watch. One fireball, fight's done. :-)
In my group this is rarely a issue. Most of the players will have their character know things. i can't remember the last time that someone didn't put at least a few points into swim and ride. It is not uncommon to see people take cooking, musical instrument and not be a bard etc. Maybe I am just lucky with my current group but they tend to round out their characters.I'm sorry to say this is the exception, not the norm. But I rather like rounded out characters - making me a little less effective than the rest of the group. I was the second-best paladin at one point, causing me to retire the character - I really enjoyed him, but hated playing second-string within my own class.
In our newest campaign, a medieval-type world rife with Politics and lords, I took a rank of Profession (Merchant). The thought being (as the heir to a small fiefdom that specializes in trade), once I inherit the land and have to run it myself, It'll be helpful to know how to manage trade ventures, should I decide to handle a few personally.
The ranks I have also helped when we had to sneak into a town (as merchants), and I didn't even have to make Diplomacy for the guards, since I had the training and knowledge to actually do merchant-like things.
I enjoy such things, but most people in my group min-max a little to much for me to go off on a limb and create a truly balanced character (I don't even drop stats below ten 95% of the time). But I'm starting to care about it less and less, and just playing what I want.
Nothing wrong with rounded out characters, Red Army. Thats one of the reasons why I like the monk class in 3.5. Even though most of everyone else I knew was screaming that it was a mediocre class.
The fighter doesn't even need flying. Once he hits...oh...10th level or so, he can just walk into the enemies' ranks with impunity.
No he can't. Please read before you comment. See the examples a page or so back of a fighter trying to wade into a 500 man army and getting killed in a round or two. Then look to the original claim that he could wade in and kill 10,000 men.
A 500 man army, with an equipment kit less than 100gp, can take out your 10th level fighter in a round or two.
An entire team of 10th level people might be able to take them out, maybe, but they'll lose people doing it.
The problem I see is most people play armies of mooks as 500 guys with an 3 int, no leaders, no magical support, no nothing. Just 500 guys standing around waving pointy sticks and trying not to get them stuck up their own butt by accident.
But for the Fighter against the army... unless they have something flying too he can just drop arrows from like high above ;).
The enemy can't fire back and you just have to have enough arrows with you :D
No, he can't. Being up high doesn't change the range on his bow. Go check the rules. If he can fire at the army, then the army can fire at him. Assuming they have the same weapon.
Oh and a Roc could carry a siege engine and those have really good range increments... so you can fire from really far away with those ;) (not mentioning that actually spotting something on 1000 ft is like +100 to the perception DC xD)
First off, where's your level 10 fighter getting a war trained Roc? And where's he getting a siege engine? Where's he getting people trained to crawl around on a roc's back to reload siege engines without falling off?
All that takes resources, you don't just get to say 'Oh, we can get a nuclear weapon and drop it in the army, toasted army'. Because you don't have access to a nuclear weapon.
I am still not sture why we are discussing the party vs army thingy :D
Because someone claimed that at level 10, a single fighter could kill 10,000 man army by themselves. Turns out you can kind of kill about 3 or 4 hundred men if you ignore the crafting rules and butcher the custom item rules. And if you give them the absolute perfect set up, and know exactly what the army will do ahead of time.
The fighter doesn't even need flying. Once he hits...oh...10th level or so, he can just walk into the enemies' ranks with impunity.No he can't. Please read before you comment. See the examples a page or so back of a fighter trying to wade into a 500 man army and getting killed in a round or two. Then look to the original claim that he could wade in and kill 10,000 men.
I missed that. But there's no way he dies in a round or two with the army I'm thinking of - standard medieval peasant unit - spears, maybe padded or leather armor, and a shield. I wasn't going to suggest he could beat down 500 professional Men-at-Arms (best represented by the Fighter class, probably).
I don't see how, when the unit described above (I know dedicated ranged units carried melee weapons just in case, but I doubt it also worked the other way around most of the time), has 9 people adjacent and 12 on the outside, so there's one hit a round...yeah, he dies eventually if he fails to cut his way out, but I see that unit of 500 guys breaking long before that. And a good fighter has his own contingencies plans when he gets into trouble, too. Haven't played one in a while, so I don't know what kind of gear a 10th level would have.A 500 man army, with an equipment kit less than 100gp, can take out your 10th level fighter in a round or two.
An entire team of 10th level people might be able to take them out, maybe, but they'll lose people doing it.
The problem I see is most people play armies of mooks as 500 guys with an 3 int, no leaders, no magical support, no nothing. Just 500 guys standing around waving pointy sticks and trying not to get them stuck up their own butt by accident.
In a more fantastic war setting, yeah, there's dragons and mages and clerics and all that - but then a few 10th level guys aren't really that important. Against a more traditional medieval unit...well, that's another matter.
Also interesting is how you assume the 10th levels are 3 INT with no leadership - if a fight a clearly a losing effort, it's time to consider how we get the team out of there.
The fighter doesn't even need flying. Once he hits...oh...10th level or so, he can just walk into the enemies' ranks with impunity.No he can't. Please read before you comment. See the examples a page or so back of a fighter trying to wade into a 500 man army and getting killed in a round or two. Then look to the original claim that he could wade in and kill 10,000 men.
A 500 man army, with an equipment kit less than 100gp, can take out your 10th level fighter in a round or two.
An entire team of 10th level people might be able to take them out, maybe, but they'll lose people doing it.
The problem I see is most people play armies of mooks as 500 guys with an 3 int, no leaders, no magical support, no nothing. Just 500 guys standing around waving pointy sticks and trying not to get them stuck up their own butt by accident.
How much does rope cost? That's all I used, 50-foot rope. That's one for the entire army. 10th level fighter is about equal to a 1st level commoner in effectiveness against an army.
How to destroy an army as an effective fighting force using one spell:
1) Cast Charm Monster on a Rust Monster.
2) Wait for rain to render the archers useless.
3) Profit!
How to destroy an army as an effective fighting force with two spells (max spell level 4):
1) Build an army sized pit trap using summoned elemental labor.
2) Cover it with Hallucinatory Terrain.
3) Profit.
How to destroy an army as an effective fighting force with two spells cast repeatedly (max spell level 3):
1) Cast Shrink Item on lots of large rocks.
2) Cast flight (possibly requiring two or three castings depending on the watch).
3) Bomb the camp from as high up as you care to fly.
4) Repeat until morale breaks.
Then there's always the traditional way of blowing up armies:
1) Get the army into a siege situation.
2) Tunnel under their position using summoned elemental labor. You're using summoned elemental labor so no reason not to do things small.
3) Pack alchemists fire around the supports and fill it with gunpowder. Shrink item reduces the labor to something one wizard can manage.
4) Send in a fire elemental. You probably won't get St. Petersburg levels of Blam because gunpowder is overpriced in Golarion, but you really only need enough to destroy the supports because you used lots of big tunnels so the sinkhole would trap the whole army, right?
5) Summon spam something to kill the survivors.
How to destroy an army as an effective fighting force using only hexes and cantrips:
1) Don't dump charisma, you need it for the bluff skill, maybe dip rogue.
2) Learn the disguise hex.
3) Learn the Slumber hex.
4) Remove and impersonate the quartermaster
5) Putrefy Food and Drink.
In certain terrain a single casting of Cloudkill on the logistics column will destroy an army as well. All you need is for them to pass through a narrow pass and be somewhere they can't forage.
Very few plans survive contact with the enemy.
You know enough level twos (or ones) can beat a rust monster to death with clubs? I like rust monsters, but they aren't that hardy.
Rain also doesn't render archers useless in dnd. Bow strings also don't just immediately snap in rain (it isn't acid).
You can fly and drop, but, that makes you a big target. Go so high you are out of bow range, how are you going to throw those rocks accurately? They can disperse and avoid a lot of casualties from your little rocks, moving away from being directly below the wizard. What if an enemy army wizard, flies up and successfully casts dispel? It is best not to be a clear target for an army. Or try to ride one tactic relying on magic to victory.
Cloudkill can be damn useful, but assuming you will get all you need and the most useful targets in a very narrow spot is truly an assumption.
I didn't ask you to ignore the item creation rules.
I did ask you to use the items already present in the magic item section if they were existent.
Ashiel,
May I point out that if your fighters are able to destroy 10,000 level 1 characters at 10th level by using the item creation rules the way you are using them, then perhaps, just perhaps, you are not really using them the way they are intended or in a balanced manner?
The biggest thing would just be having the option for items that mimic spells. This is something a Fighter absolutely has to have an option for to be successful at higher levels. By 10th level, if a Fighter does not have the option for a few staples, the Fighter very well should retire because he will not survive no matter how good his raw statistics are, because raw statistics mean less and less at higher levels.
I've often noted that for higher level play, you will absolutely need access to the following...
1) Freedom of Movement
2) Death Ward
3) Mind Blank
4) True Seeing
5) Short-range Teleportation (like dimension door)
6) Energy Resistances
I generally prefer to use these on a x/day or x round/day cooldown, unless they aren't overly expensive to have as continuous effects (energy resistance is minor enough to get resist 10 vs most types), so that they are available as they're needed.
Without these basic defenses, a high level Fighter cannot survive unless the GM is intentionally coddling him or her. They literally have no defenses against...
1) Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, etc
2) Energy drain spam
3) Mind raping and scry & die tactics
4) Most any illusion that will end in their death (like merely being able to find a wizard who isn't fighting fair)
5) To escape impossible situations (like having 3 T-Rexes spawned around you to prevent you from moving around) or to close in on enemies when normal movement is impossible or impractical. Also good for escaping grapples and such.
6) Merely to avoid being destroyed by stuff like scorching ray spam, adepts with lightning bolts, and other encounters that are intended to be trivial but will utterly slaughter you.
I also recommend flight, but with a good ranged weapon, that is usually optional unless wind wall is involved.
================================================
An encounter versus about 47 CR 1/3 warriors, experts, and adepts is supposed to be an easy encounter. Without energy resistances, however, the encounter is literally impossible, because without minor resistances, the Fighter can do nothing against alchemist spamming. 47 * 2d6 = 329 damage, which means even if only 1/4th of them actually hit him, plus splash damage, you lose a party member per round against an encounter that is supposed to be easy.
If you use the correct values for energy resistances, the encounter is survivable, and then you shift your focus to trying to avoid weapon spamming, as you're more or less guaranteed 5% incoming damage if you let them have free access to you, which is why I recommend things like smokesticks and stuff to block LoS to make focus-firing on one target more difficult.
Mind you, I'm under no illusion that an army wouldn't fight strategically. Dropping some 3rd level adepts with wands is a something you gotta watch out for. Lightning bolt spam is bad, but they can also spam spells like web (freedom of movement wards against this). Of course, that's before using a wand of minor creation to create about 7 cubic feet worth of black lotus extract to use against your party (for the record, you do not want this much black lotus poison dumped on your head without being a druid, monk, or wearing a periapt vs poison).
On a side note, there's a pretty good chance if you're fighting adepts, you will also be fighting undead since adepts have access to animate dead, which means a lot of undead archers who are going to be slathered in black lotus extract due to whichever adept wants to cover them and their weapons in it. Heck, might even just fill their quivers with the gunk. :P
If we can use spell stuff, I'd probably grab some poison protection, and get a 5/day item of resist energy or two, just for a well-rounded set of defenses.
How much does rope cost? That's all I used, 50-foot rope. That's one for the entire army. 10th level fighter is about equal to a 1st level commoner in effectiveness against an army.The fighter doesn't even need flying. Once he hits...oh...10th level or so, he can just walk into the enemies' ranks with impunity.No he can't. Please read before you comment. See the examples a page or so back of a fighter trying to wade into a 500 man army and getting killed in a round or two. Then look to the original claim that he could wade in and kill 10,000 men.
A 500 man army, with an equipment kit less than 100gp, can take out your 10th level fighter in a round or two.
An entire team of 10th level people might be able to take them out, maybe, but they'll lose people doing it.
The problem I see is most people play armies of mooks as 500 guys with an 3 int, no leaders, no magical support, no nothing. Just 500 guys standing around waving pointy sticks and trying not to get them stuck up their own butt by accident.
This is why stuff like freedom of movement is kind of important later on. Because it's far too easy to just get removed from a fight. Though I think you forgot that trying to tie up someone while grappling gives you a -10 penalty. Also, unless the guy that actually delivers the touch attack has Improved Grapple, he dies the moment he tries to initiate the grapple.
Truthfully, if you want to drive somebody crazy, just chuck a ton of nets on them. Each net requires a full-round action to remove, so multiple nets essentially means you either deal with being entangled for the entire fight, or you spend a half hour trying to get out of them. *snicker*
I didn't ask you to ignore the item creation rules.
I did ask you to use the items already present in the magic item section if they were existent.
Ashiel,
May I point out that if your fighters are able to destroy 10,000 level 1 characters at 10th level by using the item creation rules the way you are using them, then perhaps, just perhaps, you are not really using them the way they are intended or in a balanced manner?The biggest thing would just be having the option for items that mimic spells. This is something a Fighter absolutely has to have an option for to be successful at higher levels. By 10th level, if a Fighter does not have the option for a few staples, the Fighter very well should retire because he will not survive no matter how good his raw statistics are, because raw statistics mean less and less at higher levels.
I've often noted that for higher level play, you will absolutely need access to the following...
1) Freedom of Movement
2) Death Ward
3) Mind Blank
4) True Seeing
5) Short-range Teleportation (like dimension door)
6) Energy ResistancesI generally prefer to use these on a x/day or x round/day cooldown, unless they aren't overly expensive to have as continuous effects (energy resistance is minor enough to get resist 10 vs most types), so that they are available as they're needed.
Without these basic defenses, a high level Fighter cannot survive unless the GM is intentionally coddling him or her. They literally have no defenses against...
1) Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, etc
2) Energy drain spam
3) Mind raping and scry & die tactics
4) Most any illusion that will end in their death (like merely being able to find a wizard who isn't fighting fair)
5) To escape impossible situations (like having 3 T-Rexes spawned around you to prevent you from moving around) or to close in on enemies when normal movement is impossible or impractical. Also good for escaping grapples and such.
6) Merely to avoid being destroyed by stuff like...
Yeah, I can't agree. In games I've been in, and in games I run, the melee do not have to become spellcasters through their magic items, to just survive. In low magic games, with low availability of magic items, it isn't even a possible direction. Pathfinder may push in this line, with its uber sub bosses and bosses, but the one to six weren't required in 3.5. A high level melee is serious business because they are so good at their specialties, where their feats have been spent, not the magic items.
It is an unfortunate idea actually, that a melee has to become like a wizard. sorcerer, cleric or warlock to be able to do what they have been working up to all this time. I've seen far more specialisation into prestige classes than specialisation into the above 6.
Ashiel,
I think the reason they priced the energy resistance the way they did was that it is more balanced. Your pricing, 4,500gp, is way too cheap for basically immunity to fire. At basically DR 10 against fire, you're immune to most fire damage, be it flaming weapons, flask, or 1st to 3rd level spells.
The other part of it is, again, they did not make a mistake on the pricing of the energy resistance. It was 18,000gp in the 3.5 DMG. What they did was bring that forward as the RAW price for backwards compatibility (you'll notice a lot of magical items are the same between the two, and a lot don't match the formulas).
Having said that, it's a nice coincidence. I'm wondering if the original 3.5 authors used the same formulas for some of these things and never bothered to publish it. Either way, it's much like any other magic item in the book, it bases itself off of the Wizard/Sorcerer spell progression. The developers have stated in the past that the item creation rules are there for things that don't already exist, if it already exists, it should use the price already in the book.
You can houserule that of course, and there's nothing wrong with doing that, other than the fact that things like permanent energy resistance become available about 8 levels sooner than it would otherwise.
I disagree with your statement about 'otherwise you can't survive' unless the GM is coddling you. The concept that you should be able to, as one person, wade through 10,000 men with impugnity seems to be the issue. There's really nothing in the system that's set up for that. The 47 guys that are supposed to be an easy encounter probably will be for a level 10 group, unless you try to do something dumb like go toe-to-toe with them in an open field. They may have two or three acid flasks on them, so what. A good team would scout them out, see what they have from a distance (with a telescope using scout), plan out for energy resistance to be cast using a scroll or staff or wand, then the wizard leads off with a fireball from a wand to cover everyone else charging up. The mooks can throw their flasks and nobody cares, because they have energy resistance for the next N minutes, and the fight won't last that long.
I really don't see a need for permanent boosts when you have a team working in concert. And, with all due respect, 10,000 mooks should be an EPIC level CR. Per the rules, going up to 10,000 from 1/6th should be CR + 1000 or so. And killing all those guys single handedly as you want to do would award a staggering 200,000 experience. This would result in your 10th level fighter jumping 2 levels on a single fight that you want to be a cake walk.
Please think about that.
WANTED
The Murderous Hobos
for
Killing five guardsmen
Sinking of The Coral Star
Creating Undead
Sinking of The Maiden of Cheliax
Arson of The Nag's Head Bar
Escape from His Majesty's Prison
Slaying of six Royal Prison Guards
FIIIIIIIIVE GOLDEN RIIIIIIIIIINGS
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@Atarlost
Yep, so what you're saying is, that a level 10 group who wants to take out a 10,000 man army shouldn't go wading into the 10,000 men, they should hit supply lines, kill isolated units and hide the bodies, poison random kegs of ale, not all the kegs, and basically fight a guerilla war to get rid of these guys through attrition and demoralization?
Effing A+! Absolutely! Go for it!
That's exactly what they should do, not try to wade in mano-a-army.
Y'know, as to the point that posts should be closed after a while, I dunno. I just stumbled onto this post and thought it was really interesting--and I think I might be a good case study for why posts like this stick around so long. I come up with all sorts of fun responses to the original post. Then I see that the post is nine pages long and get a little depressed. I try to read up on exactly where the conversation has gone to see if my suggestions are even relevant anymore--but usually end up skimming to the end, mostly just because I'm excited to give my two cents. Someone else does likewise, reads my post and says something that probably in the preceeding 9 pages someone else has said already. And I mean, true that--but at least I get to contribute, rather than feeling like the conversation has moved on without me. Y'know?
In my case, my suggestion to the OP is this: D20 has in every incarnation never given players enough skill points to really make their characters everything of who they really should be...partly because they's likely still not put the points where other people in the setting would and would just pump up the next most optimal skills, thus continuing the problem. My suggestion would be, if you think there's skills central to the way you see the game, give them out as a bonus at character creation and then let them enjoy those starting skill points as a way to distinguish their characters rather than having to do pad the bread and butter skills just to do okay.
Has that been said a lot already? Sorry if it has, but I feel good having had a chance to voice it.
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Yeah, I can't agree. In games I've been in, and in games I run, the melee do not have to become spellcasters through their magic items, to just survive. In low magic games, with low availability of magic items, it isn't even a possible direction. Pathfinder may push in this line, with its uber sub bosses and bosses, but the one to six weren't required in 3.5. A high level melee is serious business because they are so good at their specialties, where their feats have been spent, not the magic items.
Actually, it was like this in 3.5. It was no secret Fighters were awful. And the reason they were awful is because they had no options. They still have few options. Most of their options completely consist of "whack it or whack it harder", but there are a few feats here and there that give you something special to do (but those general mean whacking it too).
You don't have to be a spellcaster to be successful. What you do have to be is able to resist spellcasters. Sadly, magic is the only way you're going to do that. Low magic hoses non-caster classes in an otherwise core game. See, let's replace magic with flame throwers and wards with fire retardant suits. Low magic games steal the fire retardant suits but let the casters keep the flamethrowers.
Even the makers of Baldur's Gate I & II for the PC realized this. While magic items, especially good magic items are pretty rare, a lot of your gear comes with stuff to help you not get steamrolled by spellcasters. For example, the Spider's Bane greatsword grants the wearer continuous freedom of movement, which you can use to escape the frequent entangle and web spells floating around.
How do you expect a warrior to threaten a spellcaster when the spellcaster doesn't even have to be physical to destroy the warrior? In core, it is entirely possible to replace the warrior's location with a crater while you cast your spells through a proxy without the warrior having any hope of retaliation or even fleeing!
Sorry, but I just don't believe you. I know how this game works at higher levels. I've seen it. I've ran it. I've realized how to play that game of chess. They can't function effectively against monsters either. A game that just denies magic items is a game that encourages everyone to be a caster more than normal.
It is an unfortunate idea actually, that a melee has to become like a wizard. sorcerer, cleric or warlock to be able to do what they have been working up to all this time. I've seen far more specialisation into prestige classes than specialisation into the above 6.
For example, you accuse me of turning the Fighter into a caster. Well, no, you never do that. If you want a fighter to be a caster, you play a caster, because a fighter is going to suck at it. However, having equipment that lets you resist the epic ravaging that you are going to experience at the hands of your enemies? Well that's about as out of line with your class as a rogue wanting a magic ring. Gee, how dare the Fighter want some magical armors and such to give him a chance to plant his sword into the face of some demon or mage? The nerve.
I disagree with your statement about 'otherwise you can't survive' unless the GM is coddling you. The concept that you should be able to, as one person, wade through 10,000 men with impugnity seems to be the issue. There's really nothing in the system that's set up for that. The 47 guys that are supposed to be an easy encounter probably will be for a level 10 group, unless you try to do something dumb like go toe-to-toe with them in an open field. They may have two or three acid flasks on them, so what. A good team would scout them out, see what they have from a distance (with a telescope using scout), plan out for energy resistance to be cast using a scroll or staff or wand, then the wizard leads off with a fireball from a wand to cover everyone else charging up. The mooks can throw their flasks and nobody cares, because they have energy resistance for the next N minutes, and the fight won't last that long.
Exactly why would the Fighter wade through 10,000 men at one time? Is he going to encounter the army on a flat landscape? Also, in your example, you are expecting the party have certain knowledge of the encounter. Not that a telescope would do much good, since it only halves the distance penalties (presumably).
But you're the guy who said wade into 10,000 of them. In fact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned hit and run tactics, using exploding arrows, and I know that I precisely mentioned at least once the Fighter enjoying his armor check penalty reduction class feature and using his Concealment to Stealth away, heal up, and then ambush them again.
I also noted that against normals, a 10th level Ranger can simply assassinate everyone in the camp in a single night. Rogue could do it too, but Rangers are more fun 'cause they're better than rogues and can do it without so much as leaving a footprint to follow. Just a camp full of dead bodies. He doesn't even have to be Invisible to do it.
The druid could just fly over the camp as a bird when no one is looking and cover the camp in spike spells, killing everyone. Oh look, everyone in the area takes 1d4 damage from being in the area, and every five feet of movement deals 1d4 damage. I sure hope 10,000 soldiers can fly.
The bard? Well he could casually pass himself off as a soldier using his various features, insanely amazing bluff check, and simple spells, and then casually coat everyone's weapons with black lotus extract that the wizard popped out of thin air with minor creation with a Slight of Hand check that nobody will ever see him making, because his bonuses to it are higher than they can roll.
Seriously, the only thing keeping the Fighter from having a shot at it, is the fact that the energy resistances are calculated incorrectly. That's the only reason he has no go. Most of the other classes have a shot at it, but since the Fighter instantly dies versus lots of small fires, he has no hope.
Also, again, I don't really care if you disagree. I know this to be a fact. If you do not have access to wards and protections, you will fail. It is that simple. Now you might have a minion via leadership or an ally who can use that spell on you, but if that's the case he still needs to use that spell on himself, and the rest of your party if they don't have the ability to get wards. So let's see. Should the cleric cast freedom of movement on your Fighter, or the Paladin who grants everyone in the party Smite vs demons you're fighting?
Don't have protections from mind-affecting effects? Well look here, the save DC for a succubus'charm monster is DC 22 at CR 7. You can be encountering these things by the dozens at higher levels, and at DC 22, a Fighter without buffs will only have a 50% chance to avoid it (+6 class, +5 resistance). That is, a 20th level Fighter getting controlled by a CR 7 succubus. Not even an advanced succubus, or a buffed succubus.
Or how about this one? Mmmhmm? Most demons can greater teleport at will. How does the Fighter keep up with that? Not even flight will allow him to compete with the mobility of such a thing. What does he do with a Balor is targeting him with dominate monster at will at DC 27? Does he hope that his potion of protection from evil protects him from it, before the Balor stripped it from him with a quickened CL 20 greater dispel magic?
How does he stand up to a swarm of incoming negative levels? He gets hit with a few enervation spells from casters half his level. A CR 15 encounter can include 8 level 10 wizards. Oh look, they decided to take you out. Enervation x 8. Too bad your cleric didn't have enough time to cast death ward on you, or even prepare it, since they didn't expect undead. Enjoy your 8-32 (average 20) negative levels. Good thing you didn't really need death ward armor or anything, to avoid being slaughtered by things five CR under standard for you.
Oh, this is a good one too. You charge at some wizard and he drops a nice solid fog on you, and you're as good as dead. Now if your party is at your back, maybe they can fight the wizard for you. Sit inside the fog and read a book or something while everyone else is participating.
Oh wait, your GM wouldn't let you have a cloak or a cape or maybe just a magic blanket that lets you become ethereal as if using ethereal jaunt at least 1/day? Well then count yourself out of fighting any wizard or sorcerer who knows his stuff, especially in his own lair. You'll be lucky if you can even see him, let alone fight him; but it's not like that in reverse as his invisible proxy-mage calls up the very hells beneath you while you vainly try to swing your shiny stick at him.
Also, resist 10 is a low level effect. You get it at 3rd level. It upgrades to 20 as early as 7th level, and more classes get it than don't. By the time that you're 10th level, you will probably have seen an 11th level version of it, which is a massive 30 resistance. Of course, anything near your level is tossing around an average of 35+ damage at a time with nearly any energy attack they use. Likewise, all sorts of monsters have resist 5 and 10 like they were just giving them away as pamphlets as you get to higher levels. Yet you seem to insist that this is somehow a high level effect...
And this is the kicker...
Despite the fact the enhancement for resist energy is otherwise using the exact formula, only with the incorrect spell level and caster level, which shows that the designers were totally following the rules they made for making magic items (which the vast majority of magic items in the core book follow, I might add). It's so obvious they made a mistake, but you stress this was a well thought out balance consideration, because having an otherwise very low-level effect active is somehow...gamebreaking?
I see where we are getting the disconnect here. I stand by my previous assertions. GMs that are either coddling or not playing the NPCs like they want to survive. This thread has only shown me that discussing high level characters with people who don't play the normal game (low-magic) or who think energy resistance 10 (a very low-level and circumstantial buff) is overpowered is not going anywhere.
=============
PS: Profession skills encompassing normal skills is bad.
Yeah, I can't agree. In games I've been in, and in games I run, the melee do not have to become spellcasters through their magic items, to just survive. In low magic games, with low availability of magic items, it isn't even a possible direction. Pathfinder may push in this line, with its uber sub bosses and bosses, but the one to six weren't required in 3.5. A high level melee is serious business because they are so good at their specialties, where their feats have been spent, not the magic items.Actually, it was like this in 3.5. It was no secret Fighters were awful. And the reason they were awful is because they had no options. They still have few options. Most of their options completely consist of "whack it or whack it harder", but there are a few feats here and there that give you something special to do (but those general mean whacking it too).
You don't have to be a spellcaster to be successful. What you do have to be is able to resist spellcasters. Sadly, magic is the only way you're going to do that. Low magic hoses non-caster classes in an otherwise core game. See, let's replace magic with flame throwers and wards with fire retardant suits. Low magic games steal the fire retardant suits but let the casters keep the flamethrowers.
Even the makers of Baldur's Gate I & II for the PC realized this. While magic items, especially good magic items are pretty rare, a lot of your gear comes with stuff to help you not get steamrolled by spellcasters. For example, the Spider's Bane greatsword grants the wearer continuous freedom of movement, which you can use to escape the frequent entangle and web spells floating around.
How do you expect a warrior to threaten a spellcaster when the spellcaster doesn't even have to be physical to destroy the warrior? In core, it is entirely possible to replace the warrior's location with a crater while you cast your spells through a proxy without the warrior having any hope of retaliation or even...
Fighters are a brilliant class. Not the strongest, for sure, but you can get into multiple types of specialisations a little quicker than others. I've seen fighters punch above their weight too, but they do have to be sensibly managed. Hit hard or hit harder? Well what about an AOO reach polearm fighter, or an ac build, or a weapon style (from complete warrior) or a bow specialist that ends up being a better shot than a ranger, or a cavalryman or mixing the fighter with another class to give them more possibilities if it comes down to the punch.
I can tell you love wizards, you've talked a lot about their great spells, but don't underestimate the humble fighter.
"I also noted that against normals, a 10th level Ranger can simply assassinate everyone in the camp in a single night. Rogue could do it too, but Rangers are more fun 'cause they're better than rogues and can do it without so much as leaving a footprint to follow. Just a camp full of dead bodies. He doesn't even have to be Invisible to do it."
Bwhahahahahaha. How large is this camp? Because a few failed stealth checks, get caught by sentries and the hunt will be on. I think stealth, coup de grace is wonderful, but anything more than a small camp, and the ranger will fall down as word spreads through the camp and weapons are seized. If it is well lit with patrols, you can easily get spotted sneaking around, if you start to shoot folk and don't kill everyone in the vicinity in a very short time, word will spread. Sigh. As before we are seeing there is the idea, yep, it'll be easy. Because the pc is level 10 and never loses or botches a check.
"The druid could just fly over the camp as a bird when no one is looking and cover the camp in spike spells, killing everyone. Oh look, everyone in the area takes 1d4 damage from being in the area, and every five feet of movement deals 1d4 damage. I sure hope 10,000 soldiers can fly."
How large is the camp? Can it be covered in spike spells? Are there archer sentries on duty? Can all the army be seen, are some hidden? Will a flying spellcaster or a spellcasting bird (as you said) attract the attention of units of individuals that can take him down? All questions to consider.
Because if you do the fly raid, kill only some, you surely have pissed off the army, and now its leaders will make killing you the absolute priority. Your tactics have hopefully been used to good effect, but now the army can start to adapt and prepare for the next time. Make some mistakes, cop some crits from bows and its all over, you only have one person to lose, a large army has a lot more it can lose.
Of course, a large number of foes can make a thrilling combat encounter. How to stop the horde?
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"I also noted that against normals, a 10th level Ranger can simply assassinate everyone in the camp in a single night. Rogue could do it too, but Rangers are more fun 'cause they're better than rogues and can do it without so much as leaving a footprint to follow. Just a camp full of dead bodies. He doesn't even have to be Invisible to do it."
Bwhahahahahaha. How large is this camp? Because a few failed stealth checks, get caught by sentries and the hunt will be on. I think stealth, coup de grace is wonderful, but anything more than a small camp, and the ranger will fall down as word spreads through the camp and weapons are seized. If it is well lit with patrols, you can easily get spotted sneaking around, if you start to shoot folk and don't kill everyone in the vicinity in a very short time, word will spread. Sigh. As before we are seeing there is the idea, yep, it'll be easy. Because the pc is level 10 and never loses or botches a check.
(Devil's Advocate): he could be using the 3d6 variant from Unearthed Arcana, which would make it far less likely that he'd botch a check.(/Devil's Advocate)
as a nod to the OP, i shall answer thusly: PCs perform a valuable role in society. to wit, they redistribute wealth and provide employment for undertakers and civic cleaners of all varieties. in addition to this valuable work they make it easy to be a detective (Either the PC's are the murderers, or they're already hunting him down. either way, you can bring them in afterwards for a beheading/reward as appropriate and justice has been done with zero effort/liability on your behalf.)
Powerful pcs sure are tough, and can have their teamwork right down. Hurting armies in the field is easy for them, they get more benefits the more they take their time and the more types of risks they lower. Attack and cheese it to best effect. But a group of players trying to take an army in a major city also have to contend with the high levels that reside there. I've seen half a party die really quick trying that.
We can take the guards! And the clerics! And the queensguard! And the other heroes!
I approve FuelDrop
Got something to add to this back and throw. Running an Isger game, want to know how you as players would respond to the following situations and armies. Pcs are level 11.
1) Devil nuns. Small army of monks, average level 4. Attacking players in hilly terrain, monsters and dangerous tribes about. Fast moving, nice morale, average fighters. Outnumber the party 7 to 1.
2) Goblin invasion. Large army of diverse goblin tribes with lots of differing troop types (gob dog cav, ranged, melee) and commanded by hobgobs and goblin heroes. Average level is all over the place, but a lot of low level goblin skirmishers. Terrain is grasslands, small villages or forests. Outnumber the party 2000 to 1.
So this gives us something to pit and pitch ideas at. Level 11 or so as I said, heroes have done a lot but aren't epic or ancient yet.
But for the Fighter against the army... unless they have something flying too he can just drop arrows from like high above ;).
The enemy can't fire back and you just have to have enough arrows with you :D
No, he can't. Being up high doesn't change the range on his bow. Go check the rules. If he can fire at the army, then the army can fire at him. Assuming they have the same weapon.
Oh and a Roc could carry a siege engine and those have really good range increments... so you can fire from really far away with those ;) (not mentioning that actually spotting something on 1000 ft is like +100 to the perception DC xD)
First off, where's your level 10 fighter getting a war trained Roc? And where's he getting a siege engine? Where's he getting people trained to crawl around on a roc's back to reload siege engines without falling off?
All that takes resources, you don't just get to say 'Oh, we can get a nuclear weapon and drop it in the army, toasted army'. Because you don't have access to a nuclear weapon.
Because someone claimed that at level 10, a single fighter could kill 10,000 man army by themselves. Turns out you can kind of kill about 3 or 4 hundred men if you ignore the crafting rules and butcher the custom item rules. And if you give them the absolute perfect set up, and know exactly what the army will do ahead of time.
I am still not sture why we are discussing the party vs army thingy :D
1. He has a heavy repeating crossbow. How many of your 1st level guys sport such a thing? So he has more range.
But non the less you may want to read closely that i said DROP and not FIRE. You can drop things down from an infinite height.2.
Rocs are most commonly white but can be a number of different colors, from dark brown or gold to black or blood red. Their massive feathers are highly prized, and their eggs even more so. Due to their scarcity and the high risk involved in harvesting them, a single man-sized roc egg can net 4,000 gp if transported to market undamaged. A roc can be trained as well as any other animal, but its great size makes this a daunting task for most would-be trainers of human size. The same isn't true for giants—particularly cloud and storm giants, who often use trained rocs as guardians for their lairs. Rocs are even large enough to serve as mounts for the most prestigious of giants.
Catapult, light 550 gp 4d6 — 150 ft. (100 ft. minimum) 2
So he really needs 4550 gp for that. Shocking.
And he can easily get a companion due to leadership who is a ranger or a sorcerer or an oracle (for Cha) to train it and help him with the catapult since it needs 2 people.Unless he has his group of course.
3. I can kill 10.000 men and I even prove it :)
The easiest way would be taking a heavy repeating crossbow on something fast (preferably flying) and having mounted archery for less penalty. Now it makes a run action every round and you fire with 120ft range increment. No enemy can fire on that range and no enemy can really close in on slow horses or whatever they are riding.
How much does rope cost? That's all I used, 50-foot rope. That's one for the entire army. 10th level fighter is about equal to a 1st level commoner in effectiveness against an army.The fighter doesn't even need flying. Once he hits...oh...10th level or so, he can just walk into the enemies' ranks with impunity.No he can't. Please read before you comment. See the examples a page or so back of a fighter trying to wade into a 500 man army and getting killed in a round or two. Then look to the original claim that he could wade in and kill 10,000 men.
A 500 man army, with an equipment kit less than 100gp, can take out your 10th level fighter in a round or two.
An entire team of 10th level people might be able to take them out, maybe, but they'll lose people doing it.
The problem I see is most people play armies of mooks as 500 guys with an 3 int, no leaders, no magical support, no nothing. Just 500 guys standing around waving pointy sticks and trying not to get them stuck up their own butt by accident.
This is why stuff like freedom of movement is kind of important later on. Because it's far too easy to just get removed from a fight. Though I think you forgot that trying to tie up someone while grappling gives you a -10 penalty. Also, unless the guy that actually delivers the touch attack has Improved Grapple, he dies the moment he tries to initiate the grapple.
Truthfully, if you want to drive somebody crazy, just chuck a ton of nets on them. Each net requires a full-round action to remove, so multiple nets essentially means you either deal with being entangled for the entire fight, or you spend a half hour trying to get out of them. *snicker*
I didn't forget anything and I believe I mentioned it (I know I accounted for it). As for the attack of opportunity, we're talking about soldiers who go into battle expecting to die. As someone who was infantry and someone who has done some basic study on how soldiers fought, it would be accepted that the first into battle are most likely not coming home. Getting struck down so your fellow soldiers could win was very common. There is honor in dying for your country.
Fighters are a brilliant class. Not the strongest, for sure, but you can get into multiple types of specialisations a little quicker than others. I've seen fighters punch above their weight too, but they do have to be sensibly managed. Hit hard or hit harder? Well what about an AOO reach polearm fighter, or an ac build, or a weapon style (from complete warrior) or a bow specialist that ends up being a better shot than a ranger, or a cavalryman or mixing the fighter with another class to give them more possibilities if it comes down to the punch.
Like I said. Hit hard or harder. In all those cases, they're still just hitting things, except for the AC build, but that just means that his first priority is to not get hit by other hitters as frequently while also hitting or hitting harder. The breath of fighter options are...
1) Hit.
2) Disarm.
3) Trip.
4) Grapple.
5) Overrun.
6) Sunder
And generally at least one of those options is fairly useless against most enemies you will fight at higher levels, and most are impractical at lower levels.
I can tell you love wizards, you've talked a lot about their great spells, but don't underestimate the humble fighter.
For the record, the last character I played was a Fighter; and before that, a Ranger. Before that, a Paladin. Before that, a Wizard. But yes, I do tend to avoid playing Fighters in games that screw them over; like low-magic games with core spellcasting.
Bwhahahahahaha. How large is this camp? Because a few failed stealth checks, get caught by sentries and the hunt will be on. I think stealth, coup de grace is wonderful, but anything more than a small camp, and the ranger will fall down as word spreads through the camp and weapons are seized. If it is well lit with patrols, you can easily get spotted sneaking around, if you start to shoot folk and don't kill everyone in the vicinity in a very short time, word will spread. Sigh. As before we are seeing there is the idea, yep, it'll be easy. Because the pc is level 10 and never loses or botches a check.
They won't. The 10th level ranger likely has a +13 to Stealth from ranks alone. An additional +2 from a masterwork item (such as fine boots or cloak). Quaffed an elixer of hiding which is cheaper than a lot of potions, which gives him a +25 Stealth modifier for 1 hour. Then you add in his Dexterity, which is easily another +3, for +28. On a 1, he gets a 29.
1st level warriors and adepts? Neither have Perception as class skills, so the best they could get would be low 20ish, which would require a natural 20, and they still couldn't bit the ranger's lowest possible roll. Likewise, nothing is stopping the Ranger from taking 10.
Furthermore, anyone not in his immediate vicinity will have a harder time hearing him. For every 10ft of distance between the ranger and the guy trying to notice the ranger, the perceiver gets a -1 to his check.
The only magic item that the ranger would need to Stealth with impunity is a minor cloak of displacement, which the wizard could have crafted for him at a cost of about 10,000 gp (as it's around 20,000 gp), which turns him into the Predator. And this type of item is in fact a staple of higher level play, because it makes you immune to sneak attack, harder to hit, and does double duty for Stealthy types.
How large is the camp? Can it be covered in spike spells? Are there archer sentries on duty? Can all the army be seen, are some hidden? Will a flying spellcaster or a spellcasting bird (as you said) attract the attention of units of individuals that can take him down? All questions to consider.
Well the druid has two spike spells at his disposal at this level. One works on any plant matter, the other works on stones/minerals. So if there is field with plantlife of any sort, it turns into a deathtrap. If it's hard stone earth, then it turns into a worse deathtrap. It also lasts 1 hour / level, and affects 10 40ft x 40 ft (20ft radius) sections of land.
Let's not forget that the druid has greater mobility, and a much easier time hiding. And it can be cast from 200 feet away, which is a -20 to anyone's Perception checks to notice him. Surprise round, spell, gone. If he has a forest line, then he can 5ft step behind a tree and have total cover vs incoming fire, before Stealthing out of there as the small woodland creature she is. That's just 1 spell though. The druid has 5 spell levels worth of options at this point. He also can cast wind wall which means that enemies will know he's coming, but can't retaliate with archery, so they have to close on the druid, who will just pop his spell, putting part of the growth in front of him making it impossible for them to reach him in melee with even a mounted horse.
Oh, and here's the damndest thing. They can't see the spikes. No joke, it's a magic trap. It takes a DC 28 Perception check (AKA near impossible for 1st level characters, even taking 20) to identify that the area is dangerous. And since he can cast it from 200 ft away, he could actually stalk the edge of the camp while sneaking, and pepper the whole camp with the spell while people are sleeping. Anyone on Patrol has a -20 penalty to their Perception checks to notice him, so even if he's just relying on being a small animal and some Dex mods, they can't notice him on a 20 and he a 1. They won't actually notice it has even happened until somebody walks over it, but it's too late then. It lasts for 10 hours at this level. Then you have a camp of guys too paranoid to march, because moving 30 feet can kill you.
No 3d6 variant required.
EDIT: You would probably love E6. That's the game where PCs don't become demigods, and stay within the realm of mortals. A 6th level party can totally ruin an army's day, poison food and such, hinder movement, but wouldn't be able to do more than these subversive tactics on their own. E6 is almost low-magic by default, since most NPCs don't make a lot of magic items because of their levels, and the PCs only hit 6th level, meaning the scope of what they can create is much smaller.
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General : JENKINS! JENKINS! What the #*$&* is going on?! All 10,000 of our soldiers are dead!
Jenkins : A Ranger snuck through the camp last night and slit everyone's throat, even the people who were on watch, talking, taking a shower, everyone.
General : How the *#*$ did that happen?!?! Who forgot to set the alarm spells?!?! What happened to our soldiers?! Our watch captains? Our Knights? Our Battle Mages? Our Doomsayers? Our Priests? Our Guard Dogs?
Jenkins : They were all houseruled to not exist. All we got was 10,000 village idiots. Actually, I'm not sure the ranger actually killed all 10,000 of them, about half the wounds appear self inflicted through stupidity.
General : How come we're alive then?
Jenkins : Oh, I'm not alive, I got raised as a zombie and a disguise spell was cast on me. The ranger's using a house-ruled magic item to let him do ventriliquism through my corpse.
Adamantine flatware? How bad must the cooking be?
Don't blame me, i was fired from the role of army cook after using prestidigitation on water and calling it soup.
come to think of it, it could actually be my fault. how was i to know that rock cakes aren't supposed to be suger encrusted rocks?
General : JENKINS! JENKINS! What the #*$&* is going on?! All 10,000 of our soldiers are dead!
Jenkins : A Ranger snuck through the camp last night and slit everyone's throat, even the people who were on watch, talking, taking a shower, everyone.
General : How the *#*$ did that happen?!?! Who forgot to set the alarm spells?!?! What happened to our soldiers?! Our watch captains? Our Knights? Our Battle Mages? Our Doomsayers? Our Priests? Our Guard Dogs?
Jenkins : They were all houseruled to not exist. All we got was 10,000 village idiots. Actually, I'm not sure the ranger actually killed all 10,000 of them, about half the wounds appear self inflicted through stupidity.
General : How come we're alive then?
Jenkins : Oh, I'm not alive, I got raised as a zombie and a disguise spell was cast on me. The ranger's using a house-ruled magic item to let him do ventriliquism through my corpse.
Jenkins: "Well sir, given the fact they were all 3rd level and below, nobody could find him. He came in under cover of silence, and killed everyone. The mental alarms were useless 'cause they get tripped every time a field mouse skitters across them, or someone forgets to say the password when they walk through the 20ft radius, and even we realize they were here, we still couldn't find them since the guy came in like he was hunting Arnold Schwarzenegger or that guy from Lethal Weapon, or something that bleeds acid...sir. Our knights, being 3rd level, and apparently not sleeping, and walking about in full battle gear, were killed trivially because their low AC and HP meant dying quickly before he vanished with Stealth again. The guard dogs just couldn't find him because of hide from animals which lasted more than an hour. He didn't leave footprints either, since he was passing without trace.
The ranger used nothing but core items to slaughter at least a stupid amount of our numbers with no way to retaliate, sir. He didn't even have to use resist energy, or the item creation rules. Just simple cheap junk. Everyone's dead sir, and he released the horses and spooked them with his animal companion, a wolf I think, which herded them away. So now all the oxen and horses are missing, and the survivors are trying to clean up, but most are slipping on the river of blood that was once our camp...
Sir."
EDIT:
"Oh yeah, you should probably not drink your coffee this morning either, sir. It seems that scattered black lotus extract all over a lot of stuff, and has definitely poisoned our food supplies. So we're now without animals, without men, and without food and water. He took your dog too sir, the cheeky fellow."
He took your dog too sir, the cheeky fellow."
.
.Opposite gender of the wolf companion?
He took your dog too sir, the cheeky fellow."
.
.
Opposite gender of the wolf companion?
No. >:) *snicker*
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I'm wondering why all these armies that exist in fantasy worlds with magic and monsters don't know how to handle at least the basics.
I'm also wondering why it is acceptible for a wizard to use a SoD/SoS spell to end a fight but when the fighter does it through a crap ton of damage, it's not acceptible. Casters only seem to use the same handful of spells, which is as repetitive as swing, hit, swing, hit.
I think that players will do more with their background and role playing skills/feats when the GM let's them. That's not to say others aren't role playing. I mean that if your GM gives you the opportunity to use Profession (cartography), then you will be more likely to use it. Just like if you GM focuses more on monsters instead of NPCs you will make different choices with your character's combat options.
To make blanket staements about how one class can't perform it's duties for all campaigns or that the only way is for the GM to coddle, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game can be played.
If anyone wants to see what a 3.5 fighter can do, I actually wrote something for Regdar's Repository at the WotC boards. I can't look for it right now because I'm stuck using my phone for posting and it's very inconvenient. I wrote it with the help of several people who didn't think fighters were worth a damn. I made sure that I addressed their concerns and stuck to Core only.
General : JENKINS! JENKINS! What the #*$&* is going on?! All 10,000 of our soldiers are dead!
Jenkins : A Ranger snuck through the camp last night and slit everyone's throat, even the people who were on watch, talking, taking a shower, everyone.
General : How the *#*$ did that happen?!?! Who forgot to set the alarm spells?!?! What happened to our soldiers?! Our watch captains? Our Knights? Our Battle Mages? Our Doomsayers? Our Priests? Our Guard Dogs?
Jenkins : They were all houseruled to not exist. All we got was 10,000 village idiots. Actually, I'm not sure the ranger actually killed all 10,000 of them, about half the wounds appear self inflicted through stupidity.
General : How come we're alive then?
Jenkins : Oh, I'm not alive, I got raised as a zombie and a disguise spell was cast on me. The ranger's using a house-ruled magic item to let him do ventriliquism through my corpse.
Jenkins: "Well sir, given the fact they were all 3rd level and below, nobody could find him. He came in under cover of silence, and killed everyone. The mental alarms were useless 'cause they get tripped every time a field mouse skitters across them, or someone forgets to say the password when they walk through the 20ft radius, and even we realize they were here, we still couldn't find them since the guy came in like he was hunting Arnold Schwarzenegger or that guy from Lethal Weapon, or something that bleeds acid...sir. Our knights, being 3rd level, and apparently not sleeping, and walking about in full battle gear, were killed trivially because their low AC and HP meant dying quickly before he vanished with Stealth again. The guard dogs just couldn't find him because of hide from animals which lasted more than an hour. He didn't leave footprints either, since he was passing without trace.
The ranger used nothing but core items to slaughter at least a stupid amount of our numbers with no way to...
So really, you are saying no one in an army is third level? That's the problem Ashiel, what the army is and what it can do, is really dependent on what the army is and what it can do. I'll give you some examples of armies that would not just be peasant conscripts.
Mongols, we'll say 1220s to 1240s. Many towns have been taken, people conquerered, their kit has improved along the way. Everyone in the army has shot people (or lanced or maced) and been in a number of successful battles. If you wanted to put it in the rules, they might be an army of rangers favoured enemy humans at this stage, average level 4-5 with some very badass leaders. What level is Subutai? His bodyguard? The men he trusts?
An easier one, giant goblin army (ver low level) with hobgob elites, who are not ultra low level--some of which are rogues, some of which are fighters or marshals. You crawl through all their camp, kill them in their burrows and tents, and no one sees you, once your enchantments wear off, at night with their darkvision? Swarmed and tackled. Use ranged, goblins falling down from arrows will be noticed. If the numbers are high enough, your masterful ranger actually doesn't have the time to kill everyone even in a night, since you are stealthing, moving, cutting throats or shooting folk, moving to the next target, try and repeat 10,000 times. All the while there should be luck rolls of patrols and the non killed noticing the killed.
Smaller elite Cormyrean knight army. Yeah you'd get in, yeah you'd kill some, and then you are fighting serious swordsmen.
Moderate sized army of average infantry, but without cav or knights, instead has war wizards for offence and sorcerers for defence (or clerics, makes little difference). The magical assets/commanders are really well protected--as in they are watched by their bodyguards. Alarm goes off, hands casting spells come out, they will purge your invisibility and bring a lot of polearms, swords and spells to bear upon an infiltrator. Bogged down and spelled to death, or you get driven off as the best case scenario.
A barbarian clan army with a proud martial tradition. So they are highly mobile, got barbs, rangers and some druids and clerics of their own. Attack them in their home clan town/tent city and you have people that can find you, can fight you, can move fast, skirmish it up, rage. Try and take out the leaders and you are facing opponents with pc levels, with their own accomplishments, mighty trophies--this clan out on the fringes would have to kill monsters often to survive out there. Don't underestimate old barbarian warriors or the shamans of a great clan.
Or an evil dwarven army. Dug in, well organised. The base troops are solid, there are a number of tough old dwarf villains around. The type that can actually pass coup de graces once in a while. The guards, the patrols, their flat footed can still be quite good. It's an army with a lot of toughness, and if the dwarves have seen a lot of fighting (expanding their evil dwarven kingdom after defeating all the subterranean problems directly beneath them) they can be above level 3, and have dwarves that reach into the higher levels.
Armies are not third level or below when there is reason for them not to be third level or below. Mongols, barb clans, knightly armies, etc etc.
"Likewise, nothing is stopping the Ranger from taking 10."
Against potentially thousands of enemies in differing levels of alertness? It's a stressful situation, you need to roll. You just want to take 10 so as to avoid detection on a 1 or higher dependent on who is around you. Each time you want to kill a guard, got to make checks. If someone sees or hears them die, its alarm time. As I said, small camp, probably not much problem, large army, hugely different game.
Your silence spells, your greater invisibility. Against thousands in a large army camp, they will run out and someone is going to spot the rising number of corpses before you kill close to them all.
"Furthermore, anyone not in his immediate vicinity will have a harder time hearing him. For every 10ft of distance between the ranger and the guy trying to notice the ranger, the perceiver gets a -1 to his check."
Yeah, I know the perception rules. Are you slitting throats mr ranger, or are you shooting folk and leaving arrows sticking out of their corpses? Which fall over and make noise if they were standing up, and leak blood wherever they were.
"Oh yeah, you should probably not drink your coffee this morning either, sir. It seems that scattered black lotus extract all over a lot of stuff, and has definitely poisoned our food supplies. So we're now without animals, without men, and without food and water."
Poison an entire army? With black lotus? Thousands of doses?
"all over a lot of stuff"
If you actually go below 1 dose for 1 person, there are no rules for it working. Half a dose of black lotus does nothing. 1/100th, also nothing. Maybe its a little spicy.
Are you serious? If you want hundreds of doses (thousands?) of black lotus, your ranger has no money for anything else, if he can even afford that. You talk about all these plans, but each one has its flaws and they all can't be afforded. Do you think the army will drink poisoned food and water, all at the same time? They are going to work it out after a few dead, and then they are going to watch their supplies really closely.
And how did your ranger deal with the guard dogs? Which can smell him no matter his stealth mod? Shoot them? Handlers are going to know, then the army. Put them on high alert, push them to digging in and being more vigilant, your ability to kill them with that stealthy ranger goes down and the mission to wipe out the army is a failure.
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Who the what now?
I'm wondering why all these armies that exist in fantasy worlds with magic and monsters don't know how to handle at least the basics.
I'm also wondering why it is acceptible for a wizard to use a SoD/SoS spell to end a fight but when the fighter does it through a crap ton of damage, it's not acceptible. Casters only seem to use the same handful of spells, which is as repetitive as swing, hit, swing, hit.
I think that players will do more with their background and role playing skills/feats when the GM let's them. That's not to say others aren't role playing. I mean that if your GM gives you the opportunity to use Profession (cartography), then you will be more likely to use it. Just like if you GM focuses more on monsters instead of NPCs you will make different choices with your character's combat options.
To make blanket staements about how one class can't perform it's duties for all campaigns or that the only way is for the GM to coddle, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game can be played.
If anyone wants to see what a 3.5 fighter can do, I actually wrote something for Regdar's Repository at the WotC boards. I can't look for it right now because I'm stuck using my phone for posting and it's very inconvenient. I wrote it with the help of several people who didn't think fighters were worth a damn. I made sure that I addressed their concerns and stuck to Core only.
Spellcasters are actually funny opponents. Because not only do their spells and tactics become predictable, what they do, the spellcasting becomes predictable. A spellcaster will cast, for an effect. A high initiative dispeller can actually shut down spellcasters. I've seen it and heard about it from another dm. Make them really waste their spells. Bog them in place. Frustrates them, works off the pride.
Then they try to cast more spells...
"To make blanket staements about how one class can't perform it's duties for all campaigns or that the only way is for the GM to coddle, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game can be played."
Agreed. As a player you should be innovating, pushing the dm, working with the dm but also moving beyond what he provides, excelling.
I prefer the beta fighter actually, but that's me.
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I just find it odd that an entire army is 3rd level or below (and treated like first), despite the fact it's rather clear they aren't.
- Foot Soldier - Warrior 1 - 1/3
- Acolyte - Cleric 1 - 1/2
- Caravan Guard - Fighter 2 - 1
- Doomsayer - Adept 3 - 1
- Guard - Warrior 3 - 1
- Guard Officer - Fighter 4 - 3
- Battle Monk - Monk 5 - 4
- Hedge Wizard - Commoner 2/Wizard 3 - 4
- Medium - Cleric 5 - 4
- Battle Mage - Evoker 6 - 5
- Cavalry - Fighter 6 - 5
- Torturer - Expert 5/Fighter 2 - 5
- Holy Warrior - Paladin 7 - 6
- Watch Captain - Fighter 7 - 6
- Knight - Aristocrat 2/Paladin 6 - 7
- Sellsword - Fighter 8 - 7
- Priest - Cleric 9 - 8
- General - Fighter 11 - 10
Plus, I don't understand how a ranger can stealth through a camp full of 10,000 people when you can't stealth while being observed. That's even under the new stealth rules, if there's more than one person that can observe you, you can't go back into stealth. As soon as someone raises the alarm, every man in camp is going to be up and looking around, yet somehow the Ranger breaks the rules and can stealth while being observed. I don't think he has Hide In Plain Sight, but even if he does, as soon as you break stealth to kill someone, 40 or 50 people attack you.
And plus, there's never any knights or battle mages, or priests in the army. No guard captains, no hedge wizards, no holy warriors, no watch captains, no mercenary sellswords. Not even a freaking general.
Just footsoldiers, acolytes, and guards. It's like someone has lobotomized every king that fields an army.
I am not joking or being sarcastic when I say that it seems to me there ought to be a close thread button that appears after so many pages.We have this (sort of). If you look at the forum view, every thread has a little '∅' next to it (at the far right.)
If you click this link, you will no longer see that thread when you're logged in.
Right, I know, and thanks. Actually, I just chimed in to try to help.
I just can't imagine anybody was still getting anything out of this. Seems more like an obsession or addiction at this point.
Oh well!
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But maybe they throw anchovies?
...splash weapon?