Limit all full casters to third level spells. Higher level slots are used with metamagic.
Limit all 6th level casters to 2nd level spells, higher level slots are used with metamagic.
Limit all 4th level casters to 1st level spells, increase the number of first level spell slots they get to equal the amount of spells they would normally get by level 20.
discuss.
I've only run low magic D&D games. Here's how I did it:
1) Ban all full-caster classes for PCs
2) I never ran Pathfinder, only D&D, and there was only one 6th level caster at the time--the Bard. I created a Bard variant that traded spells for a d8 Hit Die, a full BAB, and a few extra Bardic Music related abilities from various Bard prestige classes
3) Require all 4th level casters to use the non-spellcasting variant available to them
4) Remove all non-MacGuffin magic items
If I were to run a game like that with Pathfinder, I imagine I'd pretty much do all the same things again--there's just a whole hell of a lot more casters to ban/alter.
Play E6. High level play is not balanced if you hamstring magic. What good is a cure serious wounds spell if the enemy dishes out 50-60 damage per round? And that is likely the least of your problems.
Seems a lot to remember and overly complex for a simple problem. Most "low magic" games do not actually involve gimping the classes, but limiting the number and type of casters and the number and power of magical items in the game.
If you really want to gimp everybody, why not just limit them to a single spell/day of each spell level they have attained? Or some such. It certainly would simplify and remove the headache of "wait, what level do I have to be? What does it mean to be able to use metamagic? How many times? What spell level is that?" etc., presented by the idea in the first post.
Whatever you do and however you do it, you'd better make it up to the caster in some other way.
as i said in the original thread, i'm more inclined to switch system if i want a low magic game. i do certainly agree with being nice to casters if you do insist on de-powering them, though.
Sorry for the newb question, but what is E6 and E7?
-Von
If I go low magic I go LOW magic. No Wiz, Sorc, Pal, Cle, and Dru I replace Bard and Ranger with conversions of Woodsman and Gleeman from Wheel of Time. I also dont run hit points, I run health levels and damage saves. Alchemy, Adamantine, and Mitheral are as cool as Items get.
I really like this set up for medieval zombie apocalypse games.
I agree. i'm currently setting up a low magic game myself (actually it's 'no magic') but i'm not using pathfinder, instead teching up to traveller. with the bows and plate armour from the mercenaries supplement the system can run low technology campaigns as well as space age stuff, though i'm planning to rock out with starships myself.
Play E6. High level play is not balanced if you hamstring magic and keep throwing typical creatures of CR appropriate for a high-magic setting. What good is a cure serious wounds spell if the enemy dishes out 50-60 damage per round? And that is likely the least of your problems.
Fixed that for you (actually I didn't 'fix' anything as your comment was not 'broken'. I did think it was incomplete however).
What Morgen said. The imbalance isn't so much tied to what PCs cannot do without magic, but to what a typically CR-appropriate encounter expects in terms of magical/extraordinary abilities. Fix the encounter and you fixed the imbalance.
This affects the style of play, but I'd expect someone who wants to play low-magic will seek-out a different style anyways.
'findel
Use E6 for low magic. Metamagic exists, and port in something from Monte Cook or Mike Mearls from the Arcana Evolved line, where most Metamagic Feats don't use up higher level spell slots. Rather they get to use the metamagic feat so many times per day, typically 3, though once in some instances such as with Maximize. The feats can be taken multiple times increasing the number of times per day one can meta the spell.
Play E6. High level play is not balanced if you hamstring magic. What good is a cure serious wounds spell if the enemy dishes out 50-60 damage per round? And that is likely the least of your problems.
Let me say that I've run plenty of games that ran to level 20 (and beyond) without any PC magic spells or magic items. That means no Cure Serious Wounds at all (no potions either), regardless of the damage the enemy is dealing.
It works. You just can't use the Monster Manual as is or trust CR calculations. Since I've always custom built my own enemies, it's been no problem. It is more work for those not used to this sort of thing, though.
I would agree with others that if you are going to do this, just go e6 or e7. Spells are how casters advance, if you stop that advancement but keep it for other classes the mages will have serious trouble contributing at high levels.
Also if you go E6 you dont need to worry about magic items as much, because by 6th level the assumed wealth of characters isnt such that it is a major portion of a characters power.
E7 as cap powers?
Barbs get their DR
Bards get their 3rd level, Inspire competence at +3 AND bardic performance as a move action.
Clerics sorta suck but you can always give the level 8 domain power a level early (4d6 channel)
Druid - see cleric but worse. This one is the exception to the E7 rule.
Fighters full move in heavy armour and a +2 mod.
Monks get self heal from wholeness of body
Palys get access to 2nd level spells and 3/day smite evil
Rangers get their woodland stride
Rogues suck a bit just getting 4d6 sneak attack but better than the 3d6 if they topped out at 6th.
Sorcs get bloodline feat and spell
Wizards bite like the Druid but you can give them their school level 8 thing a level early.
Cleric, Druids and Wizards get their 4th level slot. This is far from suck...
Play E6. High level play is not balanced if you hamstring magic. What good is a cure serious wounds spell if the enemy dishes out 50-60 damage per round? And that is likely the least of your problems.Let me say that I've run plenty of games that ran to level 20 (and beyond) without any PC magic spells or magic items. That means no Cure Serious Wounds at all (no potions either), regardless of the damage the enemy is dealing.
It works. You just can't use the Monster Manual as is or trust CR calculations. Since I've always custom built my own enemies, it's been no problem. It is more work for those not used to this sort of thing, though.
So, did the heroes just take a week off between every encounter then? When you have lost 100 hp fighting something dangerous, and recover 10-20 per day, it's gonna bog down real fast.
The core of my argument is that pathfinder and D&D does not do low magic as written. You need to change about a lot of balance factors, and either make fights really rare, or reinvent parts of the system. And then it is so altered I would not really call it "pathfinder" anymore, but "Homebrew d20"
So, did the heroes just take a week off between every encounter then? When you have lost 100 hp fighting something dangerous, and recover 10-20 per day, it's gonna bog down real fast.Play E6. High level play is not balanced if you hamstring magic. What good is a cure serious wounds spell if the enemy dishes out 50-60 damage per round? And that is likely the least of your problems.Let me say that I've run plenty of games that ran to level 20 (and beyond) without any PC magic spells or magic items. That means no Cure Serious Wounds at all (no potions either), regardless of the damage the enemy is dealing.
It works. You just can't use the Monster Manual as is or trust CR calculations. Since I've always custom built my own enemies, it's been no problem. It is more work for those not used to this sort of thing, though.
Well, they were in a hell of a lot of trouble if they lost 100 HP fighting something and it wasn't the last something for a while, that's for sure.
But that's actually an important note--it made sure that attrition mattered. Every point of damage hurt because there was no easy way to heal fast. If they lost 20 HP fighting some orcs, they weren't going to be fresh when fighting the Orc King. It changed the outlook of the game entirely.
The core of my argument is that pathfinder and D&D does not do low magic as written.
Absolutely, I agree with you. But I still had fun changing it up to do what I wanted.
You need to change about a lot of balance factors, and either make fights really rare, or reinvent parts of the system. And then it is so altered I would not really call it "pathfinder" anymore, but "Homebrew d20"
Well, you may call it Homebrew d20, that's fine with me. But you don't need to change much of anything except for ignoring CR. You have to be able to judge challenges on your own, that's really the only major change (other than the lack of certain classes, obviously).
And I didn't need to avoid combats, though the PCs naturally gravitated towards preventing combat if they could, or making sure it was as one-sided as possible, which I think is admirable anyway.
90% of the foes I've used in D&D were humanoids like goblins, orcs, dark elves, etc., with normal class levels--I've used practically no "monsters" whatsoevers. I think in almost 20 years of playing D&D (starting with AD&D), my players have fought maybe 2 Dragons (and zero Beholders) and faced perhaps 5 places that might be called "Dungeons."
So, did the heroes just take a week off between every encounter then? When you have lost 100 hp fighting something dangerous, and recover 10-20 per day, it's gonna bog down real fast.
So a 10th level character can easily recover 40 hit points per complete day of rest (a DC 15 should be easy to succeed by this point).
But yeah, insta-heals are not in the style of low-magic settings. It goes with the genre.
I disagree that it stops being Pathfinder however. A barbarian boosting its STR and CON via rage is very 3ed/Pathfinder to me, and so is a sneak-attacking rogue or a feat-built fighter. Just because the party doesn't include a druid, a cleric, a witch and a wizard doesn't mean it's another game altogether. Similarly, you don't have to defeat flying-fire-breathing-acid-spitting-spellcasting-demons-from-outer-planes three times a day to make it a Pathfinder game.
Lots of good suggestions and references, e.g. to E6, have already been made. You could try another route though:
- Keep all classes in the game, don't ban any.
- All casting progressions are halved, but caster level, BAB, Saves etc. progress normally. Furthermore, spell damage caps are doubled (max 5d6 becomes max 10d6, 4d8 max becomes 8d8 max etc., ray number and such is not double though). So basically casters count as half as high. The caster level progression still allows them to make a meaningful contribution. For example, this way a wizard gets access to fireball at level 10, it remains a useful spell to him up to level 20, but he will never get higher than 5th level spells.
- Ban the highest magic item category, double the price of all items.
This should shift the power from casting characters more to the martial ones. Casters still have their place (problem solving, battlefield control, mass damage spells etc.), but they can only do so at higher levels and when other classes / creatures have better defenses.
If you still feel that's too strong and high magic-like, increase the casting times by 1 step (swift->standard, standard->full, full->1 round, 1 round->1 round + full round, 3 rounds->4 rounds etc.). This will make casters much less mobile and make them rely on others to assist them.
Oh, and you need to adapt monsters, but not as much as with some of the other approaches like E6.
These are just some thoughts, I have not tried them out in a game. But I would if I wanted to play a low magic campaign.