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I cast shapechange, which can last hours. It allows me to duplicate a variety of polymorph spells, and to transform from one form to another once per round as a free action.
During tonight's game, my sorcerer and a fellow player's sorcerer were masquerading as dragons using this spell. At one point we encountered a quartet of golems, and found that much of our magic was useless against them. So we resorted to our breath weapons.
At one point my friend and fellow sorcerer declared that, rather than wait 4 rounds for his breath to recharge, he was simply going to shift into the form of another different dragon and use that dragon's breath weapon on his next turn.
We lost over 10 minutes of game time as the GM and the players debated as to whether one could even do such a thing. Many of the players (excluding myself) thought that it was perfectly fine and balanced for a 9th-level spell to allow such a thing, and that it even made sense as you could change into a non-dragon form (such as a chimera or catoblepas) and use its breath weapon, than change to a dragon and use its breath weapon (many creatures have different recharge times, so they clearly aren't mean to all work as one).
The GM disagreed and ruled against pretty much everyone, citing that he didn't think it was the designers' intent for it to work that way and that he thought it wasn't balanced ("it's like spamming supercharged lightning bolts and fireballs for hours!"). It is bad form rule against ALL of your players I must say, as it can't possibly make the game more fun, but I otherwise don't have any problem with the GM's view of things.
I'm probably the only neutral person in our group who thinks that both sides are balanced and fun and that either ruling would be perfectly fine.
What do you guys think? Has there been an official ruling on this by any chance? If not, can we get one? It's not good for a GM to be against his players and vice versa.
Nuh I'm with TOZ.
What you roll is how many rounds you will be waiting till that breath cycles.
Can I polymorph into a fully healed version of an X and get my HP renewed each round too? "The dragon form took 50hp damage, but now Im a fresh Wooly Mammoth!!"...
Why would you bother? The breath weapons aren't so useful at that level.
When a pair of dragons circle golems that can't fly and whittle them down with breath weapon attacks every round, it comes off as very worthwhile.
You could wipe out whole armies this way. Remember, it last HOURS. A 12d8 attack, every round, against multiple targets, for 1,700 rounds.
That's an average of 91,800 damage with a single spell. Ninth level or not, that's pretty good.
Certainly not potent, but it's got real staying power.
An archer with air walk can do exactly the same thing at a far lower level.
I'm pretty sure there was a 3.5 ruling on this back in the day, which went the same way as TOZ and Shifty suggest. That's also the way I would rule it.
An archer with air walk can do exactly the same thing at a far lower level.
An archer can only carry so many arrows--and also doesn't get the buff/maneuverability options that this spell grants.
Breath weapons don't weigh anything. In order to keep firing a bow for the same length of time you would need approximately an 18 strength (and be in a heavy load) just to carry all the arrows.
I'm pretty sure there was a 3.5 ruling on this back in the day, which went the same way as TOZ and Shifty suggest. That's also the way I would rule it.
If you or someone else could find it and post a link to it, I would be most grateful. I just can't bare to stand by and watch this argument tear my gaming group apart! *places back of hand to forehead and spins head away in mock concern*
I couldn't find the reference where I thought I had read it (the 3.5 FAQ document), so either there was no such ruling, or it was part of the Dragon/Dungeon sage advice column.
In any case, there are other rules that imply this wouldn't work:
"Once a dragon breathes, it can't breathe again until 1d4 rounds later. If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds."
The same sentence exists in a slightly different form, but with the same meaning, in the Pathfinder Bestiary:
"A dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, even if it possesses more than one breath weapon."
Whether you'd use that implication for shapechanging between different dragons would then be a matter of personal opinion. As mentioned, I would.
Interesting question. I think I would require the recharge roll be honored. I would rule that the magic is what is recharging the breath weapon as well as the form. So if you are cycling dragons, you will still be recharging the breath weapon.
Magic as far as I see it is run by a God in most worlds. Thus the rules of magic are determined by this god. I would rule this god decided the spell will recharge the breath weapon at the rate given for the creature, but if you change form to another dragon, the new dragon will be considered to have used its breath weapon and still be in recharge mode.
That's how I would rule it.
What do you do about different forms that have different recharge rates? That would seem to imply that you HAVE to track them separately. (Just playing Devil's advocate.)
Well...it would take 16 rounds to cycle through the True Dragons, which would kind of render that a bit meaningless.
That said, I think players just magically expect their characters to be intimately familiar with Dragon forms, despite probably not coming across one before.
At 17th level a guy who never saw a dragon but maxed his ranks in K:Arcana knows his dragons just like a rogue who's never seen a Philosepher's Stone trap can still disable it.
As to the rounds i would go with the lowest recharge of used forms this casting meaning that if you started with a dragon you would probably use 1d4 for the whole spell.
Yeah I find that pretty cheezy :)
I know its RAW, but geez, thats like saying I read this book about it, so now I can drive a car like a pro.
Well if you apply a penalty to one skill for "lack of practical experience" you have to apply it to them all IMHO.
But i know your pain had a guy in a Resident Evil game play a 15 year old who had never shot a real gun but explained all his accuracy from years of playing time crisis. The DM said sounds reasonable that your character has a better attack bonus than the two S.W.A.T. members.
I rule it that way in my games because i know my players. If i were dropped into a random group with this going on it might be ruled different though i hope the player would ask ahead of time and not try the "spring it on the DM" method.
What do you do about different forms that have different recharge rates? That would seem to imply that you HAVE to track them separately. (Just playing Devil's advocate.)
Shapechange only allows a limited number of forms within the parameters of each spell. So if someone switched to an elemental or a magical beast, then I would allow the breath weapon or ability to work the same.
But each dragon would be tracked by the dragon. If a rare occurrence of a different recharge time occurs, then I'll track that separately.
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What do you do about different forms that have different recharge rates? That would seem to imply that you HAVE to track them separately. (Just playing Devil's advocate.)
Simple answer, complicated result.
Player 1: I breath my breath weapon.
GM : Ok, roll damage, roll recharge.
Player 1 : I rolled a 3 on the d4, so 3 rounds. 47 pts of damage.
GM : Ok, so 75% recharge time on the breath weapon.
Player 1 : Ok, next turn, I shift to a <creature>, it has a breath weapon too.
GM : Right, what's it's recharge time?
Player 1 : Uhm, 1d8 turns.
GM : Right, so 75% of 8 is 6, so in 6 turns it'll be recharged. This counts as the first of 6 turns.
So, recharge rate is percentage based. If your going from a dragon with 1d4 to something with a 1d8, then it takes twice as long to recharge (but the same percentage of time based on the maximum time to recharge). This negates the issue and maintains the balance between forms.
PS: Haven't read whole thread so far, someone may have already said this answer, if so, I agree with them. :)
I removed a couple posts and a reply to them. Play nice.
another way to think of it is that the cool down time of each dragon type still has to tick down in real time. for example I morph to red dragon breathe, then I morph blue then breathe, If I ever go back to red then I'll have to wait those 1d4 rounds as a red dragon before I can breathe again (not necisarily consecutive rounds mind you). In practice, depending on how vast the spell recipients knowledge of creatures with potent breath weapons is, there may be little difference as the player will probably get a fair amount of ones on that d4 (or what ever other die) before he must suffer through the down time.
I had thought that it might go this way as well.
What do you do about different forms that have different recharge rates? That would seem to imply that you HAVE to track them separately. (Just playing Devil's advocate.)I would say that if you are in a form that requires 1d4 rounds to recharge, you roll your 1d4, at the end of that time you can use a breath weapon again no matter what form you are in. If your current form requires 3d8 rounds (just picking a stupidly high number for an example) then you have to wait the 3d8 rounds even if you go back to the first from that only had 1d4 or even another form that has no recharge
This gets my vote. It was my first thought on reading the question, and if it ever comes up in my games, it's what I'm going with.
This is all missing something. This isn't 3.5e - you don't just get to turn into things.
Instead, you get to use beast shape IV or form of the dragon III. Form of the dragon III is very specific about the breath weapon ... the spell limits you to using the 12d6 breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. As for the beast shape IV, there's no limitations there, so in theory you could use that breath weapon as often as you like - but not the dragon one, which the spell lets you use every 1d4 rounds.
This is all missing something. This isn't 3.5e - you don't just get to turn into things.
Instead, you get to use beast shape IV or form of the dragon III. Form of the dragon III is very specific about the breath weapon ... the spell limits you to using the 12d6 breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. As for the beast shape IV, there's no limitations there, so in theory you could use that breath weapon as often as you like - but not the dragon one, which the spell lets you use every 1d4 rounds.
This is exactly the discrepancy I referred to earlier.
You can't say I have to wait several rounds from one spell effect when I shift into a form using another spell effect that has no such limitations.
That would be like casting protection from energy fire, having the damage absorption reduced to 60 out of 120, and then casting protection from energy electricity and then saying that, that starts at 60 instead of 120.
It's apples and oranges. They are unrelated and their limitations are not shared, but tracked separately.
I cast shapechange, which can last hours. It allows me to duplicate a variety of polymorph spells, and to transform from one form to another once per round as a free action.
During tonight's game, my sorcerer and a fellow player's sorcerer were masquerading as dragons using this spell. At one point we encountered a quartet of golems, and found that much of our magic was useless against them. So we resorted to our breath weapons.
At one point my friend and fellow sorcerer declared that, rather than wait 4 rounds for his breath to recharge, he was simply going to shift into the form of another different dragon and use that dragon's breath weapon on his next turn.
We lost over 10 minutes of game time as the GM and the players debated as to whether one could even do such a thing. Many of the players (excluding myself) thought that it was perfectly fine and balanced for a 9th-level spell to allow such a thing, and that it even made sense as you could change into a non-dragon form (such as a chimera or catoblepas) and use its breath weapon, than change to a dragon and use its breath weapon (many creatures have different recharge times, so they clearly aren't mean to all work as one).
The GM disagreed and ruled against pretty much everyone, citing that he didn't think it was the designers' intent for it to work that way and that he thought it wasn't balanced ("it's like spamming supercharged lightning bolts and fireballs for hours!"). It is bad form rule against ALL of your players I must say, as it can't possibly make the game more fun, but I otherwise don't have any problem with the GM's view of things.
I'm probably the only neutral person in our group who thinks that both sides are balanced and fun and that either ruling would be perfectly fine.
What do you guys think? Has there been an official ruling on this by any chance? If not, can we get one? It's not good for a GM to be against his players and vice versa.
That might work by RAW but I am sure is not RAI. The limitation put have been put there if it could be so easily circumvented.
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That would be like casting protection from energy fire, having the damage absorption reduced to 60 out of 120, and then casting protection from energy electricity and then saying that, that starts at 60 instead of 120.
That would be valid if we were talking about casting beast shape and then form of the dragon. But shapechange is a single spell, so the comparison falls flat.
"This spell can function as alter self, beast form IV, elemental body IV, form of the dragon III, giant form II, and plant shape III depending on what form you take"
So when you take dragon forms, it is functioning as 'Form of the Dragon III' - so you will suffer the 1d4 round wait.
Which assumes one dragon form would you tell a character who use FotD3 and then his breath weapon on something and found out it immune and got a 4 on the roll that two rounds later after dismissing FotD3 and recasting he cant breath for 2 more rounds?
Which assumes one dragon form would you tell a character who use FotD3 and then his breath weapon on something and found out it immune and got a 4 on the roll that two rounds later after dismissing FotD3 and recasting he cant breath for 2 more rounds?
This is precisely why I'm playing devil's advocate. I really don't believe the answer proposed by many is so readily cut and dry.
Which assumes one dragon form would you tell a character who use FotD3 and then his breath weapon on something and found out it immune and got a 4 on the roll that two rounds later after dismissing FotD3 and recasting he cant breath for 2 more rounds?
No, because the new casting would overwrite the old one.
The old spell ends.
New spell begins fresh.
Thats not the case here though is it? In this case we are talking about the continuation of one casting.