Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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You are probably not going to like my response either.
Again, I feel the urge to clarify. I would allow Taking 10 with any skill were success is not timely or pressured. I would probably not allow them for any skill when a 1 would fail critically, such as Disable Device. For instance, I would allow it for most knowledge checks, but not when used to identify the special properties of a monster. Even then, if a 1 in addition to your skill roll would still succeed, and the character were not in combat, I would probably allow it, since success is almost guaranteed. Yes, it speeds up play. I would never allow Taking 10 when a skill check is opposed. So, in answer to when would I allow Taking 10... I guess that depends, which of course is subjective to the situation.
I have allowed players to Take 10 on Faction Missions, if they are not pressured by Combat... or a need for secrecy. A successful Bluff against other players can sometimes even bypass that, since it is possible to even mislead your allies, RAW. And I allow for role-play over roll-play were social skills are involved unless the scenario specifically calls for a skill check. I might, on the other hand, make you make skill check if your CHR 7 Barbarian tries Diplomacy, no matter how you role-play. Again, subjective.
And thus why I wanted other GMs input on when they would NOT allow Taking 10 other than combat.
The next part will probably offend you, but it is not my intention. Looking over threads you have commented on in the past, I have to wonder, Nosig, if Organized Play is really for you. The number of times I have seen the comment "to see if I would sit at your table" is astounding. It is akin to "if i don't like your GM style, I'll take my character and go home", IMO.
I am hope this is not true, nor how you want to be perceived on these forums... I am all too familiar with how a forum post, deprived of the emotional content of the message, can be result in miscommunication. And sadly, because of this, players are lost.
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UMD specifically states no taking 10. But that doesn't have to do with combat. I could possibly see Fly as being distracting in the conditions you actually have to make a check, but only if flying isn't natural for you. A human, even with a fly spell, is going to be skittish when a gust of wind buffers him. Still, I don't know if I'd disallow taking 10...
where does "taking extra precautions to prevent distractions or failure" come from?It comes from Michael's interpretation of the concept of taking 10. I don't personally agree with it, but I don't see anything that indicates it couldn't be such so I'm not going to refute it.Well - if we are looking at when you can't T10 by the rules...
You can't T10 (or T20) for Concentration Checks and Caster Level checks.
You can't T10 to aid another.
You can't T10 on UMD.
You can't T10 on Day Job rolls.
You can't T10 if the Judge says "Shut up and roll the d*** dice!"ah... that's the only ones I know.
Now about the extra time for T10 - are there many other judges who feel that T10 should have rules added for taking longer?
and if I am "taking extra precautions to prevent distractions or failure", does it help? I mean to I get a +2 on the skill check or anything?
I would add, that if a trap is triggered by proximity, you can't take 10 on perception checks to find a trap, because not finding it by 5 or more could trigger the trap. Additionally, you can't take 10 on disable device traps to disable a trap.
If a social skill check could have a negative outcome if you fail the roll badly enough, you can't take 10 on it.
Basically, any skill roll that could result in damage or danger to your character is a situation they find themselves in that is distracting enough to negate the ability to take 10.
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crud - the internet ate my response.
trying this again:
Prediction: You are not going to like my answer.
When can a PC NOT T10 on a skill check (other than UMD)?
Me as a Judge: In combat. Usually when your PC is in INIT. (but sometimes even then).
Me as a Player: Whenever the judge says I can't. I almost always ask, for almost every skill. (my dice hate me. I like to Role Play, not Roll Play. - this statement will get me flamed I know).
THis is a much shorter response - sorry, it's late and the internet ate fir first (long winded) reply.
Unless you ask in an irritating or expecting way, and show disgruntlement when you get an answer you don't like or agree with, I would have no problem with you asking.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Unless you ask in an irritating or expecting way, and show disgruntlement when you get an answer you don't like or agree with, I would have no problem with you asking.
And I would also agree with this statement. I don't GM as an opponent to the players. I appreciate a player that will respect both me and the other players and trust the decisions/arbitration's I adjudicate.
EDIT:
@ Andrew: Thanks for your response.
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Unless you ask in an irritating or expecting way, and show disgruntlement when you get an answer you don't like or agree with, I would have no problem with you asking.And I would also agree with this statement. I don't GM as an opponent to the players. I appreciate a player that will respect both me and the other players and trust the decisions/arbitration's I abdicate.
I agree. I never GM as though I'm playing against the PC's. The Mooks and Bosses are there to be defeated. My job is just to portray them in as best a way as I can, so that the players have fun, and the story gets told.
Even in a home game, it isn't a competition. There have been times when the pc's killed a Boss sooner than I would have liked. I wanted him to get away (dang wizards getting a critical with their staff during the AoO when the big baddy is fleeing combat), and he didn't, so I had to rewrite some future encounters.
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Take 10 yes for all skills that don't say Take 10 - no
Lack of a "no" in a rules description does not simply imply a "yes"
The important part of the text is "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."
The emphasis I use is to illustrate that "threat" can be interpreted very differently from GM to GM. To simply say that means combat is the only such threat is, IMO, incorrect. And that is the crux of this issue. Whether you want to agree/accept it or not, there is a portion of the rule that is subjective and left to the GM to adjudicate. Therefore, the answer to "when can you take 10" is typical of other interpretive rules, when the GM says you can.
It is true that there is no additional time component to taking 10, so if a GM is using that as a reason, you have a justification to (mildly) object. But if the GM's reasoning is that you are under threat, then the matter is closed; no take 10.
The challenge is that the application of yes/no taking 10 can vary even within a GM's own table. Most of us do not apply it equally.
I often give rogues the ability to take 10 when searching large areas or long hallways for traps. If they are comfortable with the resulting score, fine. It can be a time saver. But they cannot take ten to Disable a trap they have found because they are under "threat" of the trap triggering by mistake. I am using an OOC reason (gametime) to justify an IC application. Is that right? Who know, but as I am the GM, it's "right" for my table. It may not be a "fair" application because it can be argued that failing the Perception check could result in triggering the trap. But my counter is that simply failing the check does not trigger it. Interacting with the trap is the trigger affect and is not impacted by the Perception result.
The way I review the situation is that if something bad will happen, directly, as a result of a failed check, then you are under threat and therefore taking 10 does not apply. So you can Perceive with a take 10 because there is no known threat. However, once you find it, knowing that a failed Disable Device could result triggering the trap and perhaps your death, clearly is a threat.
Keep in mind that failing a check does not automatically mean bad things happen. Often it just means you fail, try again. You have to fail a Climb check by 5 or more to fall. So if you, based on modifiers, cannot fail by that much, there is no reason to roll. The results are either success, or no progress. Move on.
Of course, someone could argue that, by my interpretation, you could not take 10 when swimming and the table notes clearly indicate that you can. Hence my comment about inconsistent application.
Also, I usually only allow taking ten with skills that require actions. So things like Knowledge checks, most Sense Motive, passive Perception, etc would not be eligible. IMO, you either know/see it or you don't. If we agree that taking 10 is the same amount of time as not, then you cannot think "harder" to know an answer. Thinking "longer" and trying to recall memories is a common RL tactic to resolving knowledge issues, but taking 10 does not, IMO, equate to that.
Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate are probably the most rife with abuse. Some of them already have a time component included and with enough ranks, and some time, you can shift anyone from Hostile to Indifferent or Indifferent to Helpful. Some players thinks that gives them some kind of control over the NPC and they will try to abuse that.
The issue with social skills is in the level of "importance" of the subject. Try to convince an Al Qaeda operative to betray the location of the group's HQ, is not likely, without magical aid. However, trying to get a common mercenary to tell you who his employer is or when he is expected back, should work much more often (assuming they know the answer to the question).
Skill checks are, IMO, a very generalistic way to simulate RL situations within the scope of the game and are, therefore, subject to the interpretations of the GM. We want to limit table variation, with respect to the rules, as much as possible, but short of Mike making a, likely lengthy, entry in the Guide, it will be left to the GM when taking 10 is applicable.
If you think your take 10 should always work, then you are likely being unreasonable. If the GM insists it rarely, if ever works, the same applies. The simple answer is that if taking 10 neutralized all challenges in the adventure, it is probably a bad idea to allow it. Anyone who plans to use taking 10 as a standard operating procedure their character is encouraged to discuss that fact with the GM prior to starting. Hopefully, no one wants to argue about rules during play. YMMV.
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I've been staying out of the "Take 10" debate as I was the GM nosig was unhappy about back the last time this was brought up.
nosig, not all skills take only 6 seconds. Some take longer just by the nature of the skill. Easy skills to call out length of time are Craft and Profession. And some the round is only a partial success. (Climb you go at 1/2 speed so may take more than one roll.)
And Mike's note about a horse can climb wasn't about the take 10 , it is a rules hole for any use of climb. Common sense tells you a horse cannot climb a rope. But get a rules lawyewr at the table and they will insist it can, because it is not stated in the rules they can't.
When I GM, I usually don't even have players roll for routine tasks. They have plenty of time, and aren't distracted.
I also don't think Take 10 is a good option for opposed rolls. So stealth, and bluff should be rolled. Why? Because the Character should not know how well he did. And the same goes for perception and sense motive. Again, Why? you ask. Because you might be lokking around and looking the wrong way at the wrong moment. Or something else the guy said, distracts you and you are paying less attention to the guy trying to bluff you.
And I do not allow taking ten to be done on faction missions. Not because of distraction, but because of what is at stake for failure. I do allow taking twenty because it specifically states you are taking extra time and being careful.
Remember, it is easy to say your character is not distracted while YOU are sitting around a table. But your character is in the real world to them, maybe a bazaar, a tavern, etc. and we can't see the minor movements, actions, and conversatons that take place around them as they go about their tasks.
I think there's a lot less variance in practice than in theory.
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case I see less variance because I think that pressing the issue is un-fun even when I'm right.
In my experience, there are 4 skills (or maybe 3.5) where GMs tend to dislike taking 10:
From what I've seen, GMs are disappointed when those skills get pumped up to the level where they basically auto-succeed with a "take 10". Personally, I'll try taking 10 on Perception checks to detect traps (but not ambushes) and Disable Device checks, but I won't even bother asking to take 10 on Diplomacy or Stealth or Perception to detect an ambush.
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I would like another angle to the debate - not only when can you take 10 - when should you take 10.
Lets look at Perception
Perception, especially to find treasure after the encounter:
I tend to ask the whole group - please roll for perception. If Take 10 is enough to find the stuff, then someone in the group will find it anyhow. But once I get the results I can answer accordingly. Only a single item to be found - the one with the highest value is told he found item x.
Two or more bits to be found - the one with the highest roll will find the more difficult, more valuable item, the second highest find the other one.
This way it isn't the same player every time who is lucky to find it. Not the player who boosted his skill highest. The glory gets shared around the table. The player with the highest skill will still get the place in the sun more often - but with a freaky roll someone with perception -1 has the odd moment where he actually finds something first.
For the pure end result it is irrelevant - it is a while that a group missed some treasure. After all - in 90% of cases you could as well take 20. But at least my players seem to have more fun as me just announcing - who has the highest perception - you found x. And next encounter - oh and the player with the highest perception found y. Third encounter - and now the player found z.
Another area of perception is ambush
I can't say - everyone above Perception skill 8 - you spot the ambush - everyone else - tough - you have auto-fail. And as long as someone hasn't readied a take 10 (I open the door and Take 10 on perception) if I have to ask the player to roll (instead of the player to initiate it) you roll. After all - this tends to be an opposed check and should some would argue should even be rolled by the GM.
On the other hand - climbing a knotted rope or ladder - no. I ask the players if they like to take 10 as most need to roll a 1 or 2 to fail and that seems to slow down play and could make results ridiculous.
I have to admit - Take 10 isn't used much here at my own table (hardly ever) and most players at Cons or where I play also use it seldom. So I sometimes have to remind myself this actually is an option.
In regards to use Take 10 on faction missions? It's akin to me asking ahead of time - can the Orisirians tell me their Stealth and Knowledge History skill, Andorans please Diplomacy, Cheliax Disable Device, Taldor Knowledge Nobility. Okay - thats 2 PA for Osirian, 1 for Andoran, 2 for Cheliax and 1 for Taldor. Lets start play.
This leads to an interesting question - can you aid someone in take 10? Can you actually boost a Take 10 result?
As a GM, I've run into a Take 10 once. I allowed it because of 2 things. Character wasn't in combat, needed to speed up finishing scenario.
Now there are instances where I will not allow a player to Take 10.
But, for me to do this, I have to look for 100% justification. I also have a hard time allowing someone to Take 10 on an untrained skill. For example, someone doesn't have a single rank in climb, I have a hard time justifying that player Taking 10 on a climb check. And especially DC10 knowledge checks.
But really, GMs on deciding to not allow a Take 10 (most players don't know that they are allowed to do them)
As far as Thod's question, I would up the DC needed to aid a Take 10
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Interesting. I had never considered whether a character could Take 10 if they were unskilled in the skill in question.
On Faction missions, I have seen ones where the mission is "use Disable Device to remove X." If used outside of combat, I don't see why not.
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When they don't understand the take 10 rules and want players to roll needless dice... it's a good warning sign that your judge doesn't know the rules very well and that's always a good thing for players in organized play.
Considering that there is at least some level of rules interpretation with regards to the 'take' rules, I find your comment to be ridiculous if not insulting.
When they don't understand the take 10 rules and want players to roll needless dice... it's a good warning sign that your judge doesn't know the rules very well and that's always a good thing for players in organized play.Considering that there is at least some level of rules interpretation with regards to the 'take' rules, I find your comment to be ridiculous if not insulting.
I find it to be just insulting.
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Ok, let's say we sit down at a table in PFSOP and I (the Judge) say -
"I do not like the way the Master Work Tool rules work - and if you have one I need to know if you are using it. The bonus is circumstancial, which is a judges call, and I feel that will not apply to any social skill, UMD, or Knowledge skill. In fact, if you try to use it - you will recieve a -2 circumstance penialty due to wasted effort and the distraction of using the tool in the attempt."Do you have any objection? Why?
I feel the same way about changing the way the T10 rule works. The way it is written, and the way it is intended to be used.
I don't object. When I sit down at your table I am agreeing to set aside my hang-ups and abide by your rules. No one holds a gun to my head and makes me play this game. If there are aspects of your GMing that I want to object to, I might do it after the game is over and away from the other players. I don't nit-pick a GM as a player. Players who try to correct a GM at the table or come to the game looking to 'establish dominance' are a cause of GM burnout.
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Sorry, nosig, but I am not going to comment on your snarky and, IMO, ridiculous analogy.
What I will say is, masterwork tools are not the topic of this thread, their bonus is circumstantial, and therefore the decision to apply them or not should be decided on a case-by-case basis.
As far as the Take 10 issue, it is clear that there is some ambiguity. We can argue back and forth about what we believe is the correct interpretation, but in the end, there will be table variation. If you require an absolute interpretation of the rule and the only one you will accept is your position, I'm afraid you will not enjoy playing at many GM's tables.
In my experience, there are 4 skills (or maybe 3.5) where GMs tend to dislike taking 10:When they don't understand the take 10 rules and want players to roll needless dice...
I didn't say anything about GMs not understanding the rule. Whether or not a GM understands the rule is somewhat irrelevant, because there's still enough natural mushiness in it for the GM to be able to disallow it at his discretion.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Are there any skills that say you cannot take 10 on them?
Why?
Why doesn't Disable Device say you cannot take 10 on this skill?
Why doesn't Diplomacy say you cannot take 10 on this skill like UMD does?
Why doesn't ANY other skill that say you cannot take 10 on it?
At some Judges tables, I can T10 on Disable Device to remove traps. At some Judges tables I can't T10 on Disable Device to open a lock.
Why can't a horse use the Climb skill? The rules allow for that to, since there is nowhere in the rules that says they can't; far from it, RAW implies they can! Again, just because something is not codified by a black and white rule, does not mean that a more common kind of sense might step in and be adjudicated on by a GM.
Oh, and the reason more people DON"T T10? because they don't know the rule. It's amazing how many players stop to read my shirt and say - "hay, is that really what the rule says?" "Yep, pg 86 Core rule book, top of the page."
I am honestly of the opinion that your t-shirt may be a disservice to players, as they will ALL quote your advice and by disappointed by the very same table variance I was trying to curb.
So I go back to my fall back. I just say, for all skill (except UMD) checks outside of combat "I would like to T10." and if the judge says I can't in this case, I will just roll it (unless he is a good friend and I know we have a few seconds and then we may discuss this - so I will not hit the problem again at his table).
*Emphasis Mine
This at least tells me you are willing to take whatever decision the GM decides, something I was uncertain of from your previous strong stance. For that, I thank you.
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Take 10 yes for all skills that don't say Take 10 - noLack of a "no" in a rules description does not simply imply a "yes"
The important part of the text is "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."
The emphasis I use is to illustrate that "threat" can be interpreted very differently from GM to GM. To simply say that means combat is the only such threat is, IMO, incorrect. And that is the crux of this issue. Whether you want to agree/accept it or not, there is a portion of the rule that is subjective and left to the GM to adjudicate. Therefore, the answer to "when can you take 10" is typical of other interpretive rules, when the GM says you can.
...... (I cut the post at this point to discuss the above, where I was quoted out of context).
ok let's start from the top.
the first quote you trimmed on the top was in reply to another post - here it is in full (If I did the copy and paste right).
"Michael VonHasseln wrote:
I wish there was a tag, much like the Retry tag under each skill for Taking 10. That would have been helpful.
My reply was:
no problem - type in Take 10 yes for all skills that don't say Take 10 - no."
so I was not stating that "Lack of a "no" in a rules description does not simply imply a "yes"" I was mearly trying to provide an answer for his problem. He wants a tag, I was advicing him to add one. that's why I told hime to "type in Take 10" as a tag on all skills, and as a guideline give the skill a Yes, unless the skill says No now. (Sarcasm alert.) I guess I could have told him to pass a questionaire to his Judge with a list of all skills with a check box beside them as to which ones you CAN and which you CAN'T T10 on. But this is just likely to piss off the judge - who will then single him out for death (as several judges pointed out to me when I discussed T10 on other threads - and why I have the T-shirt now).
Obviously nobody is going to convince you that you are wrong or that they are right. Not that I think this is a black and white situation. Rather I do believe there is room for GM interpretation.
That being said, if you started up with this attitude at a table where I was trying to provide fun for a group of players, I would consider asking you to leave. My temptation would rise if it was for generally something not important to the scenario or to success of whatever mission you are trying to accomplish.
I've never asked a player to leave my table before. But I guarantee that rules lawyering is at the top of my list of pet peeves at the table.
Just to point out but the rogues have an advance talent that lets them take 10 on disable device even if combat or while stress or distracted.
Also there's this on Take 20:
Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
For what it is worth. Personally I'm for allowing taking 10 if taking 20 is possible.
I made a deal with a GM -- he didn't like take 10 so I took -5... and still succeeded. He stopped asking on that particular skill at that point.
Everyone likes to quote the text for the Take 10 or Take 20 rules, but does anyone read the two sentences directly above those two rules?
They say:
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
The first sentence refers to rolling a skill check, of course, while the second sentence is referring to the Take 10 and Take 20 rules. Yes, you have to rely on your GM to tell you if you are in more favorable conditions or not, though most of them should be obvious, but do we really need a list of what makes a situation distracting and what makes it more favorable?
As for what you can or cannot use it on, only UMD and Swim, when it is in stormy waters, do not allow use of Take 10. Taking 10 is no different than rolling the dice, not in your action, not in the time needed, not in anything other than what your numerical result is to determine success or failure. All Take 10 does is ensure that you will have an average result, or more specifically an average result based on your character's bonuses, and hopefully no chance at failure. This is why the rules say that Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
I would say having a swim speed lets you take ten on this
The creature can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.
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So this lengthy thread is about having the rules printed on a t-shirt?
nosig, the reasoning behind asking a player to forgo the take 10 has to do with the desire for actions to have some level of uncertainty in them. If the PCs can consistently guarantee success in skill checks by opting out of the roll, then much of the drama and risk of the game is taken away (this is informed speculation with attention on how the judge/GM feels about risk to the PCs).
I know it frustrates judges when I tell them my Perception to spot traps is +37 -- +39 in a favored terrain -- as it essentially means that most level appropriate traps will be auto-detected. If the same PC is allowed to take 10 to disarm the trap, chances are rather strong that it will be disabled. That means that most traps have zero effect on the party. It may reward the PC's build, but it doesn't add much to the play experience.
I appreciate your wanting some level of consistency in OP. However, there are rules that I certainly interpret (or misinterpret) differently than fellow judges. It happens. I don't mind having a conversation about rules before or after the session, but I certainly don't want to quibble over an interpretation where all a player is trying to do is drop the chance of failure from 20% to nil. What is life without some risk? (On the other hand, I often encourage players to take 10 when it speeds up the game; I don't need to see five minutes of dice rolling to see if everyone can make their Climb checks on the knotted rope when none of the characters has a sufficient penalty to cause them to fail on a take 10.)
It appears (from an outside perspective) that you want more take 10 and less dice rolling. And that would be a style of play that is not out of line with the rules. However, many players and judges prefer the randomness of the dice (and have for some time, through many editions of the game now called Pathfinder).
I have read on this thread that someone would not allow for a take 10 on Disable Device because there could be the risk of critical failure (I have jumbled his words slightly). Now, a cursory examination of the skill description doesn't seem to detail any chance of critical failure. There is: a) success; b) failure (but no meaningful result); and c) failure (with normal results for failing). Critical failures would be mucking up the lock so badly that it cannot be picked again (not in the rules, but thematically appropriate) or setting off a trap and resetting it (very much not in the rules and a little abusive). Many players who have been with the game for a while (and spent much time playing before the rise of OP) will remember this as a way that GMs put their stamp on things.
I guess my point, if I have one, is that you are never going to get anyone who will always run the game the way you think the rules allow for. Even if you were to find some sort of universal agreement on the boards, there are many players and judges who don't read them. They may not have the time (or want to spend the time) to see the discussions. I would think the best solution to your concerns would be to simply ask the judge if there are going to be any issues with PCs taking 10 on skills (excepting UMD and Swim under foul weather conditions) outside of combat AND when there are no obvious distractions. I would imagine that phrasing it this way (a diplomatic way of asking, hey, do you mind if we keep the dice rolling to the important stuff?) you won't find much in the way of resistance. It is certainly (from my perspective) more respectful than showing off the rules on your t-shirt and telling other players you where it because you have no faith in others knowing the particular rule.
You may now go back to whatever this thread is actually about.
Timothy,
I must have missed whoever it was commenting about critical failures, but just to be clear to the folks reading: there is no critical failure or fumble or auto-fail for rolling a 1 or a critical success or auto-succeed for rolling a 20 on skill or ability checks. Those are for combat rolls only. And it is the Take 20 rule, not Take 10, that says it cannot be used in a situation where failure would result in a negative effect, such as setting off a trap. Also, Take 10 and Take 20 are standard rules in the Core Book, not optional rules, and thus cannot be ignored or disallowed totally by a GM.
Besides, using your roleplay argument, Taking 10 should allow for more roleplaying, not less. If you know before you have to choose between rolling and taking 10 that you would probably only fail on a really low roll, if you could fail at all, then you can play that up in character however you want. But say you roleplay out diplomacy or intimidate and you are really in character and doing great, then you just happen to roll a 2 and barely fail, then you may as well have been sitting there stuttering and bumbling through your words for all the good the roleplaying did before the roll.
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I would add, that if a trap is triggered by proximity, you can't take 10 on perception checks to find a trap, because not finding it by 5 or more could trigger the trap.
I would personally allow Take 10 in this instance - I believe that failure can still be a possibility under Take 10, and failure can also result in injury or other serious consequences. So in this instance, as long as you weren't distracted from the task of looking for traps and weren't in combat you could Take 10.
Additionally, you can't take 10 on disable device traps to disable a trap.
Again, I personally would allow this. I guess it could be argued that the potential for injury may play on a character's mind so much that they get distracted, but personally I wouldn't rule that.
If a social skill check could have a negative outcome if you fail the roll badly enough, you can't take 10 on it.
Again I would allow Take 10 on that.
Basically, any skill roll that could result in damage or danger to your character is a situation they find themselves in that is distracting enough to negate the ability to take 10.
Again, I personally would not take this tack, and would allow Take 10, if the threat of danger is from the task itself (and not something else) then I don;t consider that a distraction from the task, but rather simply a part of the task itself that the character is aware of.
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I would add, that if a trap is triggered by proximity, you can't take 10 on perception checks to find a trap, because not finding it by 5 or more could trigger the trap.I would personally allow Take 10 in this instance - I believe that failure can still be a possibility under Take 10, and failure can also result in injury or other serious consequences. So in this instance, as long as you weren't distracted from the task of looking for traps and weren't in combat you could Take 10.
Additionally, you can't take 10 on disable device traps to disable a trap.Again, I personally would allow this. I guess it could be argued that the potential for injury may play on a character's mind so much that they get distracted, but personally I wouldn't rule that.
If a social skill check could have a negative outcome if you fail the roll badly enough, you can't take 10 on it.Again I would allow Take 10 on that.
Basically, any skill roll that could result in damage or danger to your character is a situation they find themselves in that is distracting enough to negate the ability to take 10.Again, I personally would not take this tack, and would allow Take 10, if the threat of danger is from the task itself (and not something else) then I don;t consider that a distraction from the task, but rather simply a part of the task itself that the character is aware of.
I think that the flipside to this approach is that it cheapens the rogue's 'skill mastery' talent. Rogues can get the ability to take 10 on a number of skills regardless of the situation, and the more restricted other characters are in when they can take 10, the better this talent becomes.
I would probably not allow characters to take 10 on Disable Device for disarming traps purely so that skill mastery actually has a use.
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I am having trouble getting over the statement:
"That being said, if you started up with this attitude at a table where I was trying to provide fun for a group of players, I would consider asking you to leave. My temptation would rise if it was for generally something not important to the scenario or to success of whatever mission you are trying to accomplish."
No, its the several snarky and a bit condescending posts that you've made, that lead me to believe that at a table, if we disagreed on a rule, you'd berate the issue till the horse was dead 10 times over, and we'd lose a sense of fun in the scenario. You come off as a bully sir, and that I will not allow at any tables I run. I'm not a dictatorial or autocratic GM. Ask any of the players that regularly play at my tables. I don't get all the rules right, all of the time. I'm more than willing to listen to a player and have done so many times.
But I won't allow a player to try to steamroll me or the scenario either.
I would have no problem with you sitting at my table, as long as you understand and abide by the above. But if, at the table, you come across as you have in several of these posts, you'd be asked to leave. First time ever.
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thank you timothy. Loved your comments.
The T-shirt actually came out of a different thread - called Take 10 - again from last OCT sometime. If you check it you will see that some judges said that if I asked how they handled T-10 (in a respectful way), and what skills I could not use it on, they would kill my character. The phrase used was something like "the monsters will develope a taste for Elf". Mearly asking the question before the game was considered "rude at best, and I would wonder what you were trying to pull", by over 30% if judges - which was my personal tipping point. So I dropped the idea of asking before the game and I went with the T-Shirt suggested by Jiggy. (the Custom job shirsts were under 15$ each).
I guess I'll need to go back to my original answer when someone asks why I have it. I'll just say "I like the rule". though it looks like it's going to get me barred from some tables anyway.
A shirt will not get you barred from my table. Asking beforehand will not get you barred. Unless asking beforehand is a trap question to see if you even want to play at the table.
Being a jerk about it could.
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I think that the flipside to this approach is that it cheapens the rogue's 'skill mastery' talent. Rogues can get the ability to take 10 on a number of skills regardless of the situation, and the more restricted other characters are in when they can take 10, the better this talent becomes.
I would probably not allow characters to take 10 on Disable Device for disarming traps purely so that skill mastery actually has a use.
There is also another rogue talent, a name that escapes me now, that allows you to take 10 on disable device and if you fail, it has to be by 10 or more.
There are also many movement feats/abilities that allow you to take 10 in combat, dangerous and/or stressful situations. In the Bestiary, most movement speeds allow creatures to take 10 should they actually need to make a roll.
The fact there are many feats out there that allow a Take 10 when otherwise it would not be available, leads me to interpret the Take 10 rule a little more strictly, in that otherwise it would make those feats and abilities useless.