I just hate buffs


Advice

101 to 110 of 110 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Peter Stewart wrote:

If anything the morale is that OP needs to make his players actually track their buffs. The problem seems to be that they don't know what they are doing, not that the buffs themselves are slowing things down.

You should never be trying to figure out AC in the middle of combat, and there shouldn't be questions about things stacking at that point.

I think the OPs point was that in situations where six different buffs have just gone up in the last round, you HAVE to figure out the new total in combat. Maybe there shouldn't be questions about stacking at that point, but there inevitably WILL be.

Also, it's 'moral', not 'morale'. 'Morale' is a bonus type subject to stacking rules. :)

Scarab Sages Reaper Miniatures

Buff tracking via homemade buff cards would work well - alternatively, print out all the spell cards using Perram's spell card generator so the players know all the types.

Talk to your players, if they agree that sometimes the tracking of buffs is a bit complex, and that while the buffing is fun, it's hard to keep it all in their heads, set aside an hour at the beginning of that session to write *all* buffs form *all* spells and sources they know currently on index cards - make each caster list their buffs, durations and types. If each player tackles their own, it should take only a few minutes (15-20) per player.

Then you have a stack of index cards that say:

Bull's strength
1 m/Lv (11minutes)
+4 enhancement to Str.

Barkskin
10m/lv (110 minutes)
+2 enhancement to natural armor

Shield of Faith
1m/Lv (11m)
+2 deflection, +1/6 level (+3 total)

Now you know the types, so you can identify stacking problems. Some of the AC numbers you mentioned will be more or less always on - +2 from the ring, for example, +7 from his armor, +1 from Dodge, +1 from TWF, etc. Those will likely be listed on the sheet at his "default" AC, and only spells and situational modifiers will adjust that. They should ALWAYS know their default AC, as it's on their sheet. When figuring spell and situational buffs, the cards should help tremendously.

Time tracking is a tad harder. Was it more than 11 minutes since the last fight? Nobody rested, but there was searching, looting, opening doors, disabling traps, and it was all done out of combat rounds, and the rules as written are vague about how long it takes to search 11 dead hobgoblins, identify all of their loot, put each item in various backpacks, bags of holding, replace the scabbard and belt with your old +1 longsword with the new belt and scabbard holding the +2 longsword you just got, store the scrolls and potions, hitch up your belt and head to the next room. This is because these actions occur at the speed of plot. It's fairly easy to assume, though, that if it took you 3 minutes to read the list of what they got, the players to argue about who got the +1 ring and who got to hold the potion of Cure Serious, that it took 3 minutes or so for the characters to locate it all, and divide it up, also.

Not that I advocate 1 player minute = 1 character minute, but these things all take time. I'd say that the "loot phase" - ie, looting, readjusting who holds what, swapping out old gear for new, etc. takes 5 minutes. this means any 11 minute buff is up for 2 combats, assuming a loot phase between fights, and the 2 hour buffs (10m/lv) are up for as many as 20, but more realistically, 5-6. The 11 hour buffs are up for all fights that day, as 11 hours of combat is exhausting and they probably aren't running 18 hour adventuring days.

Abstracting the # of combats a buff is good for, assuming not a lot of downtime between combats (like in a dungeon situation), will help with duration tracking. In a dungeon, you've got this: round/lv buffs last 1 fight. minutes/lv buffs last 2 fights, 3 fights after level 15. 10 minutes/lv buffs last 2 combats per level. Hours/lv buffs are always on except once rest is declared.

Outside of dungeons, there's a lot of walking, riding, or whatnot in between encounters, then that system falls apart - even the 10m/lv buffs might be "on" for only 1 fight, as there were 4 hours of travel across the Swamp of Fear after defeating the Boggard King before reaching the Cave of the Gloom Priest...

Scarab Sages

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

This has been growing over the last few months as my PCs have levelled up. They're 9th-10th level now. And buffs, once a simple no-big-deal part of the game ("I cast mage armor before entering the cave") have grown from a nuisance to a PITA to something that's really starting to detract from the game.

Sounds like your in the market for a new game. I currently fond of Eclipse Phase and Legend of the Five Rings (latest edition). They aren't perfect systems but their flaws arent normally buff spells. If you insist on dungeon crawling there's always WFRP.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've never seemed to have a problem with tracking buffs either as a player or GM. When I am playing a buffer, I jot down the name of the spell, it's page number, what bonus it grants, and how long it lasts (much like was just suggested). I keep track of the rounds in a very small notepad.

When I play a self-buffer or someone who gets buffed, I jot down what my stats are with different buff spells and effects in place.

As DM, I make sure the players know what their spells and effects do or do not do. As far as my monsters/opponents...well, if the players just burst into a room, I go ahead and just run the opponents with all their buffs in place, some may not agree with that, but it makes the battles work just fine, and the players don't mind. If the players on purpose sneak into the room so that opponent wouldn't have time to buff themselves (or something to that effect), it is then that, assuming the players were successful in their endeavors, the opponent is not buffed. It is rare that they do this, but when they make such an effort, I reward them for their success.

I agree that if you just hate buffs, you find another system. Castles and Crusades might work (I've never played though, so I can't speak from experience), and one of the changes that was integral to 4th Edition was that no one has to track buffs anymore, or at least as often, so that might serve you well. And then there are things quite off the beaten path from D20 like GURPS or Lord of the Rings.

But I like to think that with just a little effort and prep work, you could run a game with as many buffs as possible.


I'm not quite sure where buff stacking problems are coming from.

If there are stacking questions there are buffs being cast that are wasted spell slots. Or buffs that have generally unimportant side effects like inspire courage vs fear saves.


Golden-Esque wrote:
If anything, the morale of this thread is that Lisa needs to talk the GameMastery Guides into making Spell Buff cards already. :)

THIS! My group uses Condition cards all the time and it speeds up play and reduces confusion. Having Buff cards would be invaluable.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


In this particular case, yes, they did. And the high perception watchman rolled a natural 1, while the low perception guy rolled a modified 4.

Everyone has said everything I could say and more except for these couple lines.. Unless it's a house rule, skill checks don't fail on natural 1. Not really the point of the thread, I know, but just wanted to say, since everyone else has gotten to chime in on this thread :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

At level 6+ I track durations thusly:

Hour/lvl = whole dungeon
Minute/lvl = encounters or rooms/lvl
Rounds/lvl = 1 combat.

As for bosses, I calculate their stats assuming full complement of buffs. If the PCs catch him by surprise I give him the Unbuffed condition.
-3 attacks and AC and saves. Saves time.


I write the buffs out on my battlemat in front of me so I can keep track of them.

Then I remind people.

We have, however, had the same exact issue as you. A PC was making his character with HeroLab and wasn't paying attention, so he ended up with a lot of weird things going on with no way to take his character sheet and see how he ended up where he was. Good times.

Scarab Sages Reaper Miniatures

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

At level 6+ I track durations thusly:

Hour/lvl = whole dungeon
Minute/lvl = encounters or rooms/lvl
Rounds/lvl = 1 combat.

As for bosses, I calculate their stats assuming full complement of buffs. If the PCs catch him by surprise I give him the Unbuffed condition.
-3 attacks and AC and saves. Saves time.

My only suggestion is adding in some consideration for the 10minutes per level durations -

Levels 1-5
Hour/lvl = 3x encounters or rooms/level
10 Minute/lvl = encounters or rooms/lvl
Minute/lvl = 1.5 encounters/rooms (Have the buff expire whatever round the opponents get to 50% strength)
Rounds/lvl = 1 combat.

levels 6-11,
Hour/lvl = whole dungeon
10 Minute/lvl = encounters or rooms/lvl
Minute/lvl = 2 encounters/rooms
Rounds/lvl = 1 combat.

Levels 12-17
Hour/lvl = whole dungeon (including first watch)
10Minute/lvl = encounters or rooms/lvl
Minute/lvl = 3 encounters or rooms/lvl
Rounds/lvl = 1 combat.

Levels 18+
Hour/lvl = whole dungeon (including second, but not third, watch)
10 Minute/Lv = encounters or rooms/lvl
Minute/lvl = 4 encounters or rooms/lvl
Rounds/lvl = 1 combat.

101 to 110 of 110 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / I just hate buffs All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice