I've been running melee characters for a while, and I was thinking about changing it up just a bit for the next game. The only problem is that noone else in the group is going to run a good martial class, leaving us damage shy. My one friend has a nice build for a half-orc sorcerer/barbarian/dragon disciple, and I was thinking about making a human wizard(trans)/fighter(archer)/EK as a ranged counterpoint. Other classes will probably include an oracle, a rogue, a spellslinger(probably useless, his characters usually are), and a druid.
I have a generous stat line (11, 12, 12, 16, 17, 17)
What I have so far:
str 12
dex 17 (19 human)
con 16
int 17
wis 12
cha 11
We'll probably start at 3rd. I was thinking Fighter 2, Wizard 1 planning on taking wizard levels through 7 and picking up EK at 8. Reactionary and Magical Knack traits. Feats Point Blank Shot (1st), Rapid Shot (hum), Precise Shot (fb1), Deadly Aim (fb2), Scribe Scroll (wiz1), Craft Wonderous Item (3rd).
I would be using Gravity Bow often, applying the +1 from transmute to dex.
I plan on being the party's primary item creator.
Any thoughts on what I have or where to go from there?
I've been running melee characters for a while, and I was thinking about changing it up just a bit for the next game. The only problem is that noone else in the group is going to run a good martial class, leaving us damage shy. My one friend has a nice build for a half-orc sorcerer/barbarian/dragon disciple, and I was thinking about making a human wizard(trans)/fighter(archer)/EK as a ranged counterpoint. Other classes will probably include an oracle, a rogue, a spellslinger(probably useless, his characters usually are), and a druid.
I have a generous stat line (11, 12, 12, 16, 17, 17)
What I have so far:
str 12
dex 17 (19 human)
con 16
int 17
wis 12
cha 11We'll probably start at 3rd. I was thinking Fighter 2, Wizard 1 planning on taking wizard levels through 7 and picking up EK at 8. Reactionary and Magical Knack traits. Feats Point Blank Shot (1st), Rapid Shot (hum), Precise Shot (fb1), Deadly Aim (fb2), Scribe Scroll (wiz1), Craft Wonderous Item (3rd).
I would be using Gravity Bow often, applying the +1 from transmute to dex.
I plan on being the party's primary item creator.
Any thoughts on what I have or where to go from there?
Consider your attack bonus and whether or not you're going to take the Arcane Armor training feats.
Wiz 5/Fighter 1/EK 2 is superior to Fighter 2/Wiz 5/EK 1. More BAB. Better chance.
It's also slightly better in my opinion to just full-class wizard, then dip fighter, then go EK rather than to go fighter 1/wiz 2, then fighter 2/wiz 2, then fighter 2/wiz 4. Wiz 5 is focused, keeps you as the caster and makes sure you don't fall behind in ability as the adventure goes on. If you go elf you can have 19 dex, 19 int and keep your 14 con, give yourself +2 to break spell pen and longbow proficiency through the wizard levels.
Consider your attack bonus and whether or not you're going to take the Arcane Armor training feats.
Wiz 5/Fighter 1/EK 2 is superior to Fighter 2/Wiz 5/EK 1. More BAB. Better chance.
It's also slightly better in my opinion to just full-class wizard, then dip fighter, then go EK rather than to go fighter 1/wiz 2, then fighter 2/wiz 2, then fighter 2/wiz 4. Wiz 5 is focused, keeps you as the caster and makes sure you don't fall behind in ability as the adventure goes on. If you go elf you can have 19 dex, 19 int and keep your 14 con, give yourself +2 to break spell pen and longbow proficiency through the wizard levels.
Elf could work for the flavor, as could half elf or human, but I'm worried about being able to deal out real bow damage early on. Any advice on how to do that with the elf wizard through 5?
take lvls of Arcane ARcher when your done with EK just to finish off the bab and spellcasting stuff...
I just don't like AA's much. By that level I'll have an enchanted bow at 4 or 5.
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Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4 is generally the way to roll in terms of a build skeleton.
For Wizard, transmuter is definitely the right choice, as the +2 you get to a physical ability score from your wizard levels can be a huge benefit. I would flip your Strength and Con. You're a damage dealer, and a ranged one at that. When you get a Dex item, you can use the transmuter boost on Con to grab extra hp and a boost to saves, or add it to strength to boost your damage a tiny bit.
Dropping Necromancy and Evocation work the best for a build like this, in my opinion. An arcane bonded ring is a good option. You'll want to have a ring of coutnerspells with dispel magic loaded into it when possible, as you'll rely heavily on pre-buffs for much of your effectiveness.
For feats, I'd use your bonus feat at Wizard 5 (character level 6) to grab either Craft Wondrous or Craft Arms and Armor. Since you're spending a feat on one of those, see if another caster in the group can pick up the other.
This is how I generally do it (I like this kind of character too much):
1: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
2: Scribe Scroll
3: Weapon Focus
5: Arcane Strike
6: Craft Wondrous Items OR Craft Arms and Armor
7: Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative? (or what you deem important)
9: Manyshot
11: Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master
13: Greater Weapon Focus
15: Improved Precise Shot, XXXX
17: XXXX
19: XXXX
Weapon Blanch from the APG alchemical items is a godsend to archers. Also, you can afford to use only cold iron arrows as your base arrow pretty much from level one. You'd be surprised how often that will rule. Carrying a bunch of weapon blanch'd (adamantine) arrows as soon as you can afford some is much cheaper than buying actual adamantine arrows. However, grab a couple adamantine arrows in case you ever need to shoot locks off or sever chains from a distance or anything like that. Doesn't always happen, but when it does everyone will look at you in awe as you one shot steel chains holding up bridges and chandeliers with your arrows that ignore hardness.
Also, the APG has blunt arrows. Being able to switch between dealing Bludgeoning or Piercing damage with ranged attacks is very important in some situations.
High Int, a couple ranks in Craft (Bows and Arrows), and the first level spell Crafter's Fortune will let you make arrows easily, and most DM's just see what score you can achieve on that easily and simply assume you're doing it extremely cheaply in the downtime of the campaign.
With your fairly high number of skill points from being human and having high Int, you can get fairly Rangery...Arcane Archer eventually gets Stealth and Perception as class skills, and Eldritch Knight has Sense Motive. Your wisdom isn't fantastic, but you can get pretty good at these skills (and eyes of the eagle and an ioun stone of alertness also help with these). Bonuses to Stealth are also fairly easy to come by. Don't forget that Int headbands can be crafted with whatever skills you want attuned to them as well, so something like Stealth later in your build when you can afford it is a cool choice for the headbands you'll inevitably want.
Grabbing a point in each Knowledge skill you're not overly specializing in is always fun too. At least you get to roll a lot, and you never know what you'll come up with at times.
With all your arrows and magic and skills, you can really make a cross between Batman and Hawkeye. I've very much enjoyed playing characters who were exactly like that in the past.
You're dead on with the traits. If you want a lil more flavor, you can always take "adopted - elven" and grab "warrior of old" for the same mechanical outcome, but a possible backstory that explains your casting and archery proclivities and magical knack as a human.
The Holy enchantment can be DEVESTATING on an archer in a campaign where you fight many evil things. Due to your high volume of attacks, adding +2d6 that isn't subject to any DR shoots your damage through the roof. Stacking other elemental enhancements is nice too, but you run into lots of stuff later in the game that resists the common ones. If you pick one, start with corrosive. You'll have fire covered with the third level spell Flame Arrows (which lasts for 10 min/level and is great for the style character you're thinking of). I'm also a fan of the Seeking enhancement, especially if your DM rules that it ignores Mirror Image. A +1 Bow is pretty much fine. Give it enhancements and then up the numerical bonus with Greater Magic Weapon. (On that note, a lesser rod of extend is awesome in the mid levels to make GMW and Mage Armor last all day.)
I wouldn't bother with armor. Just try to stay out of the way, and if you are in an area where trouble may occur, remember to drop shield. With Mage Armor, Shield, and your Dex, your AC shouldn't actually be that bad. Mirror Image is also incredibly effective.
Boots of Haste as soon as you can afford them and get your grubby hands on them.
Can't think of anything else at the moment that's not really common sense, like "really look through and choose efficient long duration buffs when possible...Darkvision is a great second level spell for a human archer."
Hope something in there is helpful.
Edit: Advance Warning - you're not really going to be all that great (though you'll be a decently functioning low level caster) until around level 7 or so. Then, pretty much by level 10 your groupmates are going to be looking at you when you drop multiple hundreds of damage on something and going..."Uhh, where the heck did that come from? A few levels ago you were pinging away one shot at a time for like 14 damage."
There's a BIG jump in power when you start being able to really stack on some longer buffs and getting Deadly Aim and reaching breakpoints of Arcane Strike. It's also right around that time where you can finally get your hands on boots of haste and afford to enchant your bow. Then Manyshot hits at 9...and at level 10 you get to fly all day long. After that, encounter design by the DM will start to be tweaked heavily in favor of slowing down the damage you'll reliably pump out from a (usually) impossible to get to position. But that's something archers do in many games, it's not just this build.
Um sylvanite you need to be at least 1/2 elf for AA
The racial restriction on Arcane Archer has been removed.
Um sylvanite you need to be at least 1/2 elf for AA I would probably do an elven wizard 1-5 fighter? palidin? ranger? barbarian? 6 EK 7-16 AA 17-20
as for feats
1 scribe scroll(free), pbs
3 percise shot
5 craft wondrous item, weapon focus
6 deadly aim
7 rapid shot, imp init (deadly aim if not a fighter
9 weapon spec if fighter(deadly aim if not)
11 weapon spec if not fighter, imp crit, many shot(if fighter)
13 improvesd initiative? point blank master?
15 imp percise and g weapon focus
17 far shot? shot on the run?
19 XXXXEdit @Sylvanite why would you use boot of haste you just can cast haste
As was mentioned, no longer have to be any bit of Elf to use AA. If that isn't accepted in your group, stay human (the extra feat in the beginning of the build REALLY makes a difference at the low and mid levels) and finish the build out like this: Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 3/Fighter 1
You lose a BAB, but pick up a feat at the very end. You also lose out on some good class skills and ok class abilities from AA.
Boots of haste are WAY better than the haste spell. They're a free action to activate, so you don't waste an entire turn of full attacking to cast haste (which is usually an in-combat cast only as it has a rnd/level duration). Also, 3rd level spells are where most of the best ones for this build are, so it would be an even bigger blow to have to memorize haste a whole bunch of times there.
Also, take your Fighter level at level 1. You get more hit points this way. Featwise, get manyshot as soon as is possible, it's a HUGE boost to damage with no downside. Don't forget about Arcane Strike, jackspeed. It makes all your arrows magical (for DR purposes this is good) and is a pretty nifty boost to damage that even scales as you grow as a character. Especially at lower levels you're not going to have anything else to do with the swift action, so you should take Arcane Strike.
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In actuality, Urban Barbarian is the best "splash".
Urban Barbarian 1 nets you 12 1st level hp AND the ability to controlled rage (with ability to cast) with a +4 unnamed dex bonus.
Then take wizard 5; transmuter (dex bonus till you get an item, then switch it to con).
It's actually a very good archery type build (buffer with options). I actually prefer it to bard-archers that people like, mostly because of more spell options.
So by level 2 you'll have a 20 dex; and can "Rage up" to a 24 dex 6 rounds / day. Pretty sweet :).
Since I don't feel like making a new thread when was it errataed?
I for optimization purposes still suggest an elf if you . you get +2 to BOTH of your relevant stats. and allows you to cast level 9 spells without the use of magic items.
As for arcane strike I seem to play in a slightly higher magic level then by level 11 (with the trait 13 without the trait) I usually have a +3 bow. so I don't see the feat as useful.
I am on the fence about the boots of haste but he is a caster so maybe the rest of the party wants haste? that all depends on group dynamics. And I was stretching on improved init then get manyshot at level 9.
It was errata'd in the latest printing of the Core Rulebook. The online PRD is even updated with the restrictions removed.
For optimization purposes, an elf is still not really better. The extra feat is useful extremely useful at the start of playing a character like this. Also, you'll be able to cast 9th level spells with a human just by getting a headband of int (which of course you'll want, even if it's just for the extra skills!). As an elf, you're also losing 1 hp per level compared to a human, in a build that is already probably going to be fairly low in hp. Since an arcane archer style character isn't really using magic to cast spells with DCs that he needs enemies to fail very often (usually more just buffing himself and machine-gunning enemies to death), the added Int from elf doesn't really matter much. I'd rather not delay my feat progression by a step than get what elf offers. It is a matter of preference, however, as these things always are.
Arcane Strike adds damage, regardless of what the enhancement on your bow is. It adds one damage at first, and then goes up by one for every 5 caster levels. With the amount of shots archers have (around 11th level you're talking about 5 arrows on a full attack in this build, the extra +3 damage from arcane strike can start helping push you toward some awesome full round damage potential).
As for haste, if you're the caster for the group, and the one who is being relied upon for doing casting in combat, then you should just be playing a straight wizard. If your group is asking you to be the caster, then be the caster. If your group needs an archer damage machine with some versatility, then be the arcane archer style character.
Yeah, manyshot should be at 9 for this build, pretty much no matter what (your earlier feat build out has it 11, btw). It's as soon as you can get it, and the one feat that adds the biggest boost to your damage output.
Wait arcane strike add damage to a magic weapon?? I have been reading this feat wrong and apologize. I still like the extra spells and skill points form the int boost. As for Many shot in my earlier build I thought the BAB requirment was 8 not 6. I would give up improved initiative in my build for deadly aim and give up deadly aim for Arcane strike.
I think we have to agree to disagree on the race Sylvanite.
Fair 'nuff. Though I have to point out that the Int boost from an Elf does not net you any extra skill points over being Human. The one bonus spell is nice, but not as nice as the feat (especially since you can't use it till way later) : )
With that high of a dex score go half-elf ranger/wizard to get the full fav class with both, but if you are insistent on taking eldritch knight why not just take levels in magus and be getting 3/4 BAB d8 HD and half casting while using weapon/spell at the same time while also delivering touch spells through your weapon. I found that to be a pretty good way to deal considerable damage.
If you want armor (and you don't have to have it) I really recommend still spell over the arcane armor training.
Tell me sylvanite hypothetically we were statrting at 9 would you still go human? I guess I always value the fluff more then the feat. and If he wants to be a caster and he will only be 2 levels down from a caster also he can play 1-5 as a wizard if you are an elf.
I'd still go Human (the bonus feat is still worth it and I'd have the same number of skills). Mechanically, I'd really never go Elf for this build, as you'd be making yourself even more of a glass canon, losing a feat, and not really getting anything that helps your main schtick (which is shooting tons of arrows that do as much damage as possible). Fluff is what you make of it. My characters always have awesome fluff (see my suggestion on traits, above). I don't need pre-fab fluff, really. I decide what mechanics and what fluff I like, then make them work together.
I don't get the rest of what you're saying, though. You can play 1-5 as anything, whether Human or Elf. And it wouldn't make that much sense to play as a pure wizard from 1-5 if you're still banging out archery feats the whole way. Either way, you're gimped, and not really better off as an elf unless +1 to DCs is THAT big of an issue for those few levels you play the character as a pure caster taking archery feats.
What's the issue with 2 levels down from a caster? What does an elf have anything to do with that, and what are you referring to? By 20, you're 3 levels off a pure caster. Magical Knack and an orange ioun stone make up for the CL loss, though you'll only get to 17th level spell progression. Elf doesn't change any of that over human.
All that said...it comes down to what's going to be fun for any individual person to play. We can argue mechanics all day, but really, if you want to play an Elf, it's not going to make the whole thing into a debacle of a build. Heck, you could do it as a half-orc if ya really wanted to and still be pretty darn good.
Abraham Spalding is tooooottaaaallly right about taking still spell over the arcane armor feats. Especially if you're mostly casting buffs. All the best ones tend to be lower levels, so you'll have plenty of room to bump spells up a level. Good call.
You guys have convinced me to go with arcane archer. The blanched arrows are brilliant, and I'd completely forgotten about arcane strike. I'd already looked into the magus idea, and it seems like a class that just doesn't try hard enough in either direction.
The only thing I'm really debating now is the bonded item or familiar. I'm honestly thinking of going with a scorpion familiar to couple with reactionary and the high dex to start with the +9 init, and probably skip improved init in favor of an extra item creation feat. My saves seem pretty strong to start and will improve quickly, and with the combat damage I can deal out I won't be hurting for spells. I'll just make a few pearls of power for the better spell levels to emulate the bonded item's ability.
Also, I think I can get my AC plenty high enough without armor (unless AM BARBARIAN decides to hunt me down...).
You guys have convinced me to go with arcane archer. The blanched arrows are brilliant, and I'd completely forgotten about arcane strike. I'd already looked into the magus idea, and it seems like a class that just doesn't try hard enough in either direction.
The only thing I'm really debating now is the bonded item or familiar. I'm honestly thinking of going with a scorpion familiar to couple with reactionary and the high dex to start with the +9 init, and probably skip improved init in favor of an extra item creation feat. My saves seem pretty strong to start and will improve quickly, and with the combat damage I can deal out I won't be hurting for spells. I'll just make a few pearls of power for the better spell levels to emulate the bonded item's ability.
Also, I think I can get my AC plenty high enough without armor (unless AM BARBARIAN decides to hunt me down...).
That one spontaneous spell/day from the bonded item can often be a huge deal (it's also nice to be able to craft one of your own rings at half price). But I'm biased against familiars, so either way is good.
If you want to skip Improved Initiative, Clustered Shots is a feat worth getting. While you'll have arrows to overcome almost any DR (thanks to weapon blanch etc.), unless you're heavily metagaming you'll often not know to use those until the second round of a combat. That said, if no one else is gonna pick up crafting feats (and you'll actually have plenty of time for crafting, make sure to ask your dm this), craft weapons and armor and craft wondrous item are two of the most powerful feats in the game....so taking both is a good idea for the whole group if no one else is gonna help with crafting.
+1 to bonded item. Pearls of power are nice but they are limited to your current spell selection. The bonded item ability is for when you get blindsided and need a particular spell you didn't (or couldn't) prepare. Scrolls help somewhat but have their own limitations (e.g. cost and provoking AoOs---not a big concern for a ranged fighter but still worth noting).