With vehicle combat DCs starting at 20 and quickly going to 30+, they effectively squeeze out having any interesting combat setups for lower level parties.
Has anyone else used them with a low level party?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Vehicle combat just does not work at low levels. With the easiest check being 20 in combat, few successful checks will be made. None of the classes with Handle Animal as a class skill rely on Charisma.
At first level, I decided to do a chase. The wagon was wrecked pretty quickly trying to just maneuver through a city. Since then I changed the rules to favor a spread of levels. The ranger driving had a +2 Charisma modifier, +3 for being a class skill, +1 rank, and +2 for Animal Affinity for a total of +8.
My opinion:
The rules were designed so common tasks could be easily hand waved for completion. Vehicle combat was designed to be accomplished by a mid-level character who has Handle Animal as a class skill with max ranks AND with disposable cash to be able to afford losing vehicles. The rules were intended to be basic and easy to remember and run without overburdening the system.
Thanks for that firsthand account!
What I found interesting was comparing the Drive check DCs against trap DCs, and I noticed that most low CR traps still have high DCs, often a DC of 20. In fact, most CR1 traps have a DC of 20.
I wonder if Pathfinder's default DC is 20 instead of 15 ...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Make your own traps, you can have lower DCs if they are easier to perceive/disarm. Low damage ensures if the party does not spot the trap, they can survive. I take the standard CR 1 traps and make it DC 15 to spot and make it CR 1/2. If I also lower the Disable Device to 15, I drop the CR to 1/4. I just throw a few more at the party.
While it is not in the rules, I use the listed Perception DC to spot the trap in passing and without searching. If a character tells me he is specifically searching for traps, I allow a +2 circumstance bonus. I do not allow taking 10 or 20 when searching for traps. Aid Another can be used to spot traps, but only if there is enough room to do so and the player must say how they are helping.
Opinion:
I feel the higher DCs are to allow players that specialize to shine. A DC 15 skill check at first level for a class skill is about a 50/50 chance. And that is only with a +1 ability modifier to the skill. I feel such an easy check makes success feel cheaper. By having it harder to pass, you make the players feel empowered when they do succeed.
I've decided that I'm going to work in some kind of training that will allow skill bonuses when used specifically for drive checks. I will have to double check, but I'm pretty sure you can Aid Another for a Drive check, which would be very good!
Ah, looks Aid Another only applies when the driver opts for a Wisdom check opposed to a skill roll.
Yeah I had to lower all the DCs in my game because the minimum DC in combat for any sailing ship was 30.
No fun having a high seas adventure game if you can't even use a ship.
Thanks for the first-hand experience.
The best kind of the chases are the ones where the vehicles keep blowing up and the chase member keep acquiring new ones.
The best way to deal with the unnaturally high DCs is to provide a host of circumstance bonuses. The trick then is to balance the circumstance bonuses with the target DCs in order to make the situation seem more difficult than it is.
There also needs to be a more nuanced palette of situation results. In between "success" and "crashed" there should be at least 4 or 5 possible outcomes that are less catastrophic and lead to more fun.
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I was thinking about treating it as a "concentration" thing.
Like, the driver rolls their skill against a DC similar to a caster trying to cast a spell under conditions such as being injured or grappled, vigorous or violent motion, rain or sleet, or even "driving defensively"...
Anybody done anything like this?