Two creatures in the same square


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

Why is it that a Stirge can, and indeed has to to attack, move into my (as a medium creature) square, and stay there as far as I can see, albeit provoking an AoO, whereas I cannot move into its square?

Richard


Can you provide the language that says it can do that? I don't think it does what you think it does.

If you're referencing it's ability to "attach" after a successful touch attack, that's a specific monster ability, and I'm still not sure that actually puts the creature in "your" square.

It does have a reach of "0," but if it is in one square and you are in the square adjacent, the line where the two squares touch is "0" in my estimation. At least that's how I've always run it.


You would seem to have it right Richard. As a GM, I think I would only have it stay in your square with a successful "Attach", other than that I would have it provoke every round it had to attack.

As to "why", well, there are always wonky rules. ;)

PRD: Combat: Big & Little Creatures in Combat:

Quote:
Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

PRD: Combat: Moving Through a Square:

Quote:

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Acrobatics skill or similar special abilities.


Thanks for the pertinent text Abciximab. I guess I have been running it wrong.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
MendedWall12 wrote:


It does have a reach of "0," but if it is in one square and you are in the square adjacent, the line where the two squares touch is "0" in my estimation. At least that's how I've always run it.

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Reach 0 means you have to move into your opponents square to attack.

To the OP's problem: IA creature with a reach of "0" does not threaten any squares and thereby can't make attacks of opportunity. So you can legally enter its square without provoking.

Edit: Ninja'ed


From "Combat - Big and Little Creatures in Combat":

PRD wrote:


Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

From "Combat - Movement, Position and Distance":

PRD wrote:


Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

So, while the Stirge is so small that it's forced to move into your square to attack you since it otherwise can't reach you, you're not big enough to move easily into its square.

Since you can attack it regardless, I don't know why you'd particularly want to :)


Quote:
Since you can attack it regardless, I don't know why you'd particularly want to :)

I assume he's thinking of how nice it would be to move through the creatures space without using Acrobatics or Overrun. Both should be easy enough with the creatures CMD, but may not be an option (those heavily armored types) or be a waste of an action.

Quote:
IA creature with a reach of "0" does not threaten any squares and thereby can't make attacks of opportunity. So you can legally enter its square without provoking.

Actually, they don't threaten squares around them, so you wouldn't provoke for going around them, but it would still provoke if you entered its square (See "B&L Creatures" above).

Dark Archive

I think the problem might lie in the inconsistency between the rule which says that I can only finish my move in a square with another creature in it which is 3 or more sizes smaller (i.e. a Stirge is too big), and the rule which requires the Stirge (or common rat, not to confuse the issue with the Stirge's attach attack) to actually move into my square in order to attack me.

I think it's a little harsh on Stirge (or rat) to ask it to move back out again after it's hit (and hence provoke another AoO when it moves back in).

Mind you I also think the rule about not finishing your move in the same square as another creature is problematic (e.g. what happens when it cannot be avoided as in two medium creatures falling into a 5' square pit).

Richard


I don't think there's an inconsistency. To me, the rules make fairly good sense. Let's take a real-word example (even though it's a rules issue):

My cat (a Tiny creature) is perfectly able to be in my space, for instance by climbing onto my back.

I'm not equally able to be in its space, since the cat is a little too large for me to stand over it without spacing my feet apart, especially when it's moving around.

However, a horse (a Large creature) would be able to be in the cat's space, since it's legs are spaced far enough apart for the cat to be under its body.

(by the way, the tiny creature can remain in the larger creature's space; it isn't forced out at the end of its turn. So it would only take the AoO once, unless the larger creature moves and forces the tiny creature to move after it)

To the last issue, the DM would most likely rule that one of the medium creatures falls on top of the other. That's what I would do, anyway. In any case, such corner cases would be up to DM-ruling. That's why we have them :)

Grand Lodge

Nullpunkt wrote:
To the OP's problem: IA creature with a reach of "0" does not threaten any squares and thereby can't make attacks of opportunity. So you can legally enter its square without provoking.

I've seen it played this way, but I think this is not quite right. A Tiny creature doesn't threaten the squares around it. It still threatens its own square. You provoke for entering its square, moving out of its square and any action you do in its square that normally would provoke.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Starglim wrote:
I've seen it played this way, but I think this is not quite right. A Tiny creature doesn't threaten the squares around it. It still threatens its own square. You provoke for entering its square, moving out of its square and any action you do in its square that normally would provoke.

You're right, I got lost on the size scale and thought it were three steps from medium to tiny.

Dark Archive

Are wrote:


My cat (a Tiny creature) is perfectly able to be in my space, for instance by climbing onto my back.

That's grappling, surely.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Like you say, not everything has to be catered for specifically in the rules.

Richard

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