I believe there will be a group of players that would like the computer game mechancis to match the RPG, but it will never be a perfect match. However, DDO does a good approximation of the 3.5 rule set. The biggest hangup is the limit of spells, abilities, etc. per day, which would hamper the game flow of an online "real time" game. DDO handled it by having rest shrines, but I would prefer you just regain so much power over time, or per adventure instance.
But ultimately, I do not think Paizo has the same leeway to implement the 3.5 ruleset, or their modified version, via digital games, in comparison to the standard use of OGL. They will have to create a new system. And that fact, more than anything else, will determine the underlying mechanics of a pathfinder computer game. The down side, is all the content they already have in regards to modules, adventure paths, or even rule books, or supplemental material will have to be re-written. Otherwise, they will only be porting the flavor or the feel of the game over.
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Someone explain to me what it is about the PnP rules that literally cannot be implemented in an MMO?
There isn't anything about the math that's even remotely difficult, skills and spells are similarly trivial to implement, and roleplay is easily done via chat (voice or text) and in-game props (items). Platforming and traps isn't even worth worrying about since those just become part of the map design itself. See D&D Online for a true gem of an example of PnP mechanics in MMO format. DDO is now F2P, profitable once more, and still has a very active and pleasant playerbase.
As for "empire building" and other sandboxy features, those aren't so jaw-droppingly difficult to do -- if Minecraft can do it, what makes you think a full team of developers can't? EQ2 is a really great example of player and guild housing, and that game is simply ancient in MMO years. Player-based economy has had many years to be studied in EVE Online; why do you think that couldn't be done here?
There isn't anything about any of the class features, feats, spells, skills, items or monsters that I can think of which couldn't be coded. Possible exploits or imbalancing abuse is a matter for playtesting and world design to solve, but I don't forsee any unsolvable ones provided the developers are even half as creative as they seem.
...Someone explain to me what it is about the PnP rules that literally cannot be implemented in an MMO?
There isn't anything about the math that's even remotely difficult, skills and spells are similarly trivial to implement, and roleplay is easily done via chat (voice or text) and in-game props (items). Platforming and traps isn't even worth worrying about since those just become part of the map design itself. See D&D Online for a true gem of an example of PnP mechanics in MMO format. DDO is now F2P, profitable once more, and still has a very active and pleasant playerbase.
As for "empire building" and other sandboxy features, those aren't so jaw-droppingly difficult to do -- if Minecraft can do it, what makes you think a full team of developers can't? EQ2 is a really great example of player and guild housing, and that game is simply ancient in MMO years. Player-based economy has had many years to be studied in EVE Online; why do you think that couldn't be done here?
There isn't anything about any of the class features, feats, spells, skills, items or monsters that I can think of which couldn't be coded. Possible exploits or imbalancing abuse is a matter for playtesting and world design to solve, but I don't forsee any unsolvable ones provided the developers are even half as creative as they seem.
Mostly the argument centers on the fact that the PnP system is turn-based, and making an online game turn-based causes it to bog down as a game, feeling tedious and slow.
I hope not Coldman but you could be right.
In any case...there is a complete lack of in-depth games that focus more on strategy than buttonmashing.
I don't think it is just legal issues. I mean anyone could just make up a D&D like system and lore like Dragon Age for example...and just make a game out of it...avoiding all legal issues....
I think there simply isn't enough of a market for such games unfortunately.
Goblin Squad Member
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@Re Megamek.
Scott, I think it's a lot faster with MM. I know even with dopey the slow bot, I can run company sized battles quickly.
I think Sean's and Gorbaz's posts summed up the diffuculties of translation.
I always played online multiplayer, so I'm used to dealing with the decision times of other players. Perhaps it's just the people I've played with, but I've found that individual actions get a lot of consideration before any decisions are made, no matter whether you're playing on MM or with an actual tabletop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mostly the argument centers on the fact that the PnP system is turn-based, and making an online game turn-based causes it to bog down as a game, feeling tedious and slow....Someone explain to me what it is about the PnP rules that literally cannot be implemented in an MMO?
There isn't anything about the math that's even remotely difficult, skills and spells are similarly trivial to implement, and roleplay is easily done via chat (voice or text) and in-game props (items). Platforming and traps isn't even worth worrying about since those just become part of the map design itself. See D&D Online for a true gem of an example of PnP mechanics in MMO format. DDO is now F2P, profitable once more, and still has a very active and pleasant playerbase.
As for "empire building" and other sandboxy features, those aren't so jaw-droppingly difficult to do -- if Minecraft can do it, what makes you think a full team of developers can't? EQ2 is a really great example of player and guild housing, and that game is simply ancient in MMO years. Player-based economy has had many years to be studied in EVE Online; why do you think that couldn't be done here?
There isn't anything about any of the class features, feats, spells, skills, items or monsters that I can think of which couldn't be coded. Possible exploits or imbalancing abuse is a matter for playtesting and world design to solve, but I don't forsee any unsolvable ones provided the developers are even half as creative as they seem.
Moro points out one major issue, but there's another related one as well: Synchronization on a larger scale (days).
Moro's point about needing to synchronize turns is very true, but somewhat resolvable - when you go into combat, you enter a turn based system; when outside it, you can move normally, similar to NWN. The problem with that is that if you take a long time to take your turn, the people who aren't in combat can run circles around you, or else they get absorbed into the combat and get bored waiting for your turn, just so they can move around.
Synchronization on a larger scale has to do with times-per-day powers, spells-per-day, and so on. When do you rest to get your spells back? Once per game day, as per PnP? If so, how long is a game day so that you don't play for an hour, then need to break for a while (which works for flash-based MMOs, but not for a WoW-like or EVE-like MMORPG), but also can't just rest whenever you want to get your full set of spells back (like many areas of NWN2)? And what are other players doing? Do they share the same server-wide daily cycle? What if they're in a long combat that takes up a "day" and a half? Or is it a per-character thing?
- when you go into combat, you enter a turn based system; when outside it, you can move normally, similar to NWN.
I think you mean AOL NWN ....if you do please call it that to avoid confusion...
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...Someone explain to me what it is about the PnP rules that literally cannot be implemented in an MMO?
There isn't anything about the math that's even remotely difficult, skills and spells are similarly trivial to implement, and roleplay is easily done via chat (voice or text) and in-game props (items). Platforming and traps isn't even worth worrying about since those just become part of the map design itself. See D&D Online for a true gem of an example of PnP mechanics in MMO format. DDO is now F2P, profitable once more, and still has a very active and pleasant playerbase.
As for "empire building" and other sandboxy features, those aren't so jaw-droppingly difficult to do -- if Minecraft can do it, what makes you think a full team of developers can't? EQ2 is a really great example of player and guild housing, and that game is simply ancient in MMO years. Player-based economy has had many years to be studied in EVE Online; why do you think that couldn't be done here?
There isn't anything about any of the class features, feats, spells, skills, items or monsters that I can think of which couldn't be coded. Possible exploits or imbalancing abuse is a matter for playtesting and world design to solve, but I don't forsee any unsolvable ones provided the developers are even half as creative as they seem.
1. Time issues: People have less patience on a computer game than in person. So, if you make a turn-based computer game you have to keep that in mind.
2. Scalability: In this case we are talking about an MMO. Thousands of players on at the same time. The rules are built to handle 4-6 players worth of actions. Everything just gets bogged down wierd here.3. Abstract Rules: No one will ever be happy about how you make spells like Minor Image work in a computer game. EVER. The closer you try to stick to the standard rules, the more upset people are when you deviate from them. Starting with the assumption that you are throwing out the original rules reduces complaints.
4. Reward systems: Players need to be rewarded. The base game does this though a variety of means, but social interaction is one of the big rewards. This is much harder to achieve in a computer game. Thus, you need to replace to social rewards with others. The standard xp/equipment system does not provide enough granularity to give players decent rewards at well timed but consistent intervals. DDO, for instance, had a major problem with only having a 20 level progression, and had to throw out normal HP and magic items to keep players interested. Basicly, if rewards aren't good enough and frequent enough, players wont play.
5. Fast Forward buttons: this is something we have in table top gaming. Its impossible to implement it in an MMO. Basicly, actions have time delays. Some of the big ones in Pathfinder are daily reset powers (spells, rage points, Ki, you get the idea). If you think the 15 minute adventuring day is an issue at your table, it would be so much worse in a MMO, because while you are siting there waiting for your spells to recover you will stop playing. And MMOs try to keep their players constantly doing stuff. With a GM, you can just go to sleep and recover your stuff. You may get a penalty for it (ambushed,) but in general it wont be too bad.
That being said, a lot of this stuff goes away if you are trying to just do a 1 player or indpendant multi-player server one instead of an MMO. You could look at the old SSN games for (dated) inspiration. You don't have the same audience size for those types of games though, and they wont draw the same numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you mean AOL NWN ....if you do please call it that to avoid confusion...
- when you go into combat, you enter a turn based system; when outside it, you can move normally, similar to NWN.
I thought that's how Bioware's NWN worked? It wasn't totally turn based, but you could only move a certain amount in a given time while in combat, while out of combat you weren't as restricted? It's been years since I played. I may be misremembering. The point is still valid even if my example fails, though.
Yes, you are misremembering...
NWN has "phased" turns. Same no matter if you are in combat or not...at least pertaining to movement....
Does it have to be all or nothing? Bear with me for a minute.
It seems to me that the vast majority of the classes, their abilities, the feats, skills, etc could be translated by exchanging every instance of "round" with "x seconds" to allow for some sort of system to normalize them.
Yes and like I said (maybe too many times) that is how the Neverwinter Nights games work...
D20 mechanics were built for a turn based war game, not real time combat.
Ok, lets take a minute to think about what you said here because I do not agree.
Sure, the "turns" have to be timelimited somehow...but there is no sense in dropping all the rules everytime you're gonna make an MMO (like usually).
There are enough games already that don't give a blast about the rules of the game they are using...
Most importantly this kind of game needs to be designed around giving the player time to interact, roleplay and do somewhat tactical combat...at least thats what I think.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with that is that the turn-based gameplay of the PnP system exists purely to emulate a real-time transaction; six seconds of combat time. Instead of then emulating that in the game, you can simply carry out the real-time transaction instead. Sure, combat mechanics are still applied in the background to determine who succeeds in their endeavours but you don't then require stop-start gameplay and it will be much more enjoyable for all involved.
We're not talking about a game system which is like CoD where you simply point and shoot, there will be depth to it but whether or not we need to see the actual mechanics or not is up for debate. Personally, I don't need to see the 'dice rolls' just the end result.