If its impossible to translate class/level based D20 into an MMO, how did DDO pull it off?
I don't think it pulled off at all. At least not in creating a role-playing game, the way I see it. An arcade style shooter is what you have there...using only a minimum of D&D rules. Just using the D&D name for some reason...maybe ripped a tiny bit of lore from it...
The only thing that turned me off DDO when it initially launched was the heavy use of instancing and complete lack of solo content.
So...that it wasn't D&D at all didn't bother you?
Goblin Squad Member
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Seeing that the developers don't want to, or can't, make the game a mechanical match for the Core Rulebook initially made me second guess whether I would remain interested at all. Then I realized that the world they are trying to create doesn't necessarily have to have the same mechanics to "feel" the same. Of course any MMO with swords and magic can "feel" like playing a table-top RPG; it really depends on the immersion of the player, and the balance of the world.
What scares me the most is that if they create a complete economic and political landscape, and let the players freely interact with that, badness is likely to happen. Reference this article for reasons why when people are able to fully control a character in a virtual world, they will do everything in their power to have zero moral compass, because, it's a game, and you can't go to jail for wiping out an entire civilization made up of 1's and 0's on a server somewhere. (Not yet anyway.)
I'm still interested in the game, and I will definitely do my best to be one of the first 4,500; however, much like Elyas said, if there are groups of people gathering power and resources and the average starting character runs the risk of dying at the whims of said bullies, I'll be leaving just as quickly as I joined.
This creates a significant challenge for Ryan and his development team. How do you create a sandbox game where players are left to their own devices, and yet make sure that starting players don't just get wiped off the map so groups of evil asset mongers can have their money/gear? One possibility would be the system of law built into the Elder Scrolls games. If you go around killing innocent citizens you will eventually be caught, killed on the spot if you resist, put in jail, if you don't resist, and your character will suffer consequences for your unlawful acts (possibly executed?) by NPC guards, soldiers, sheriffs, etc. This, though, creates a climate that is not conducive to a character that wants to be chaotic-evil, which might alienate a certain segment of the audience. The game can work, it's going to be up to the developers to make it work.
Elth,
NWN is a LOT more D&D than DDO.
It has phased turns which is closer to turn-based. It actually uses dice-rolls. No silly recharg-o-meters. Instead it is the classic rest to replenish spells and abilities. You can be a DM...
But you know this...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elth,
NWN is a LOT more D&D than DDO.It has phased turns which is closer to turn-based. It actually uses dice-rolls. No silly recharg-o-meters. Instead it is the classic rest to replenish spells and abilities. You can be a DM...
But you know this...
I agree that NWN is closer to D&D due to having a closer to turn based setup and the DM system. As far as a workable MMO though I do have to say DDO did come fairly close. DDO does work off of a dice roll system (you can turn it on to display, and if you read the combat log it shows the rolls). Not really sure how you consider the spell point system a recharg-o-meter, considering unlike other MMO's, it does not self recharge, you don't regain Spell points, or limited use abilities until you hit a shrine, which is what is considered resting. The feat/skill point system is fairly close to 3.5 rules.
I'm not saying it is anywhere close to perfect, but as an MMO, it is the closest thing to P&P DND I have found. Also durring it's prime, I found the lack of solo refreshing for a person like me. Honestly solo grinding for hours on end was not my cup of tea, and almost every MMO I play these days, tend to go a route in which teaming up cuts your XP by such a large margin, that finding anyone to team up for anything is almost impossible. DDO for a while was at a point where, you hit O, look at the list of parties recruiting and hop into one and run an instance, compared to WoW, where I would sit in town for an hour calling LFG ____, only to find out that the party recruited a capped player so they could get through the instance quickly and get back to soloing.
Hmm you're right to some extent Onishi. At least about the recharg-o-meters. I took a closer look and they don't seem to be that.
Still the combat feels way too action oriented. I can't put my finger on it...but it looks more like a shooter.
With added stuff like tumbling and shield defending (theese are not rolls to my understanding but if you press the button fast enough it will avoid the hit) it becomes even clearer that this is not a roleplaying game but more like a shooter. At least to me...
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It's not that difficult to create a computer game where you have classes and races and feats and skills much like what's in the Pathfinder RPG, net not have it shackled to d20 mechanics and the current skill point resources and the way that feats work.
If you're playing a fighter in the computer game, as long as you get a lot of free combat options that other classes have to pay for, it still feels like a PF fighter.
If you're playing a barbarian, if you have a rage mechanic where you get stronger, and have special powers when raging, it still feels like a PF barbarian. [Edit: I had originally said "fighter" here, too. :p]
If "power attack" is a stance a character can take to deal extra damage with less accuracy, it still feels like PF power attack.
If rogues still deal extra damage when flanking or against unaware opponents, and have tricks they can do relating to roguish things, it still feels like a PF rogue.
If your ability to climb, jump, tumble, notice, and know things can improve as your character gets more powerful, it still feels like a PF character.
And so on.
But the game engine doesn't have to be rolling d20s. It doesn't have to be based on 20 character levels, it may not give you feats at every odd character level, and you may not have the same number of skill points per "level" that you do as defined in the Core Rulebook. What's going on under the hood may be an internal combustion engine, but you don't need to know if it's gasoline, diesel, or ethanol, as long as it makes your car stop, go, and maneuver in a way that's familiar and fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're playing a barbarian, if you have a rage mechanic where you get stronger, and have special powers when raging, it still feels like a PF fighter.Why would you want a barbarian to feel like a fighter?
probably a typo. should be "feels like a PF barbarian". it matches with context of other statements.
Yeah, oops, will fix. :)
To clarify, I don't have anything to do with Gobinworks at this point, so I don't know what Ryan has planned. I'm just pointing out that you don't have to have a strict adherence to the PNP rules to make the MMO still feel like you're playing PFRPG.
So you really dont care if its Pathfinder rules, D&D rules or Dragon Age rules then...cause its an MMO...and they are all the same right (I mean the rules aren't used at all almost as its an MMO)?
So the only thing you have is a bit of the lore...?
Wow...its really easy to make games theese days...
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Goblin Squad Member
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What's going on under the hood may be an internal combustion engine, but you don't need to know if it's gasoline, diesel, or ethanol, as long as it makes your car stop, go, and maneuver in a way that's familiar and fun.
The problem is, quite a lot of us are "auto mechanics" to continue your metaphor, and it does matter to us what's under the hood. Not to say what they make will be automatically terrible if it doesn't use the PFRPG ruleset, just that Pathfinder is more than just Golarion.
The problem is, quite a lot of us are "auto mechanics" to continue your metaphor, and it does matter to us what's under the hood. Not to say what they make will be automatically terrible if it doesn't use the PFRPG ruleset, just that Pathfinder is more than just Golarion.
Except we're talking about a computer game, and getting "under the hood" isn't going to happen unless you're on the MMO programming team or you're a hacker. If you're just playing the game, it doesn't matter if it's rolling 1d20, 1d100, or 1d10,000 to determine attack rolls.
Goblinworks Founder
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Elth,
NWN is a LOT more D&D than DDO.It has phased turns which is closer to turn-based. It actually uses dice-rolls. No silly recharg-o-meters. Instead it is the classic rest to replenish spells and abilities. You can be a DM...
But you know this...
This is subject to opinion.
I have enjoyed playing every single D&D game going back to the gold boxes. While I enjoyed the Atari Neverwinter Nights I still consider Turbines MMO adaptation more enjoyable. The atmosphere while playing DDO felt more like D&D to me than NWN ever did.
Just because DDO didn't use the rest mechanics doesn't mean it's a bad adaptation of the D&D rules. Spell points systems have been an optional rule in PnP D&D longer than either of the PC games have existed so I consider NWN1 and DDOs differing systems to be merely "House Rules".
The only reason the Vancian spell system worked so well with NWN was because of their first aid system allowing a player to heal without a cleric. NWN was also tailored to the solo player, DDO to the group.
Also both NWN and DDO could have dice rolls enabled, I never played DDO without my little d20 spinning above my action bar.
Just because a game has the Vancian spell system and you can "DM" doesn't make it any more D&D to me if the so called DM is s~$%e and the spell system doesn't translate to real time.
This is merely my opinion though. It obviously differs to yours but I don't consider either opinion to be wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have to agree with Sean there, Uriel222. I'd rather see Pathfinder Online work well and be able to see and experience Golarion as Pathfinder HQ sees it rather than go in and play a rules-updated slightly-better graphically Neverwinter Nights II. At the end of the day it's a balance between playability and tradition.
Right now Paizo and Goblinworks are trying to make Pathfinder Online as enjoyable as possible not just for the fans who have stuck with them through thick and thin, but also to make the game accessible to new gamers, who in turn can then be exposed to the far more intimate Table Gaming scenario.
And honestly guys, the snark isn't helping matters, either in getting your points across or keeping the discussion going. We might even like the new system Pathfinder Online uses, wouldn't that be amazing?
The problem is, quite a lot of us are "auto mechanics" to continue your metaphor, and it does matter to us what's under the hood. Not to say what they make will be automatically terrible if it doesn't use the PFRPG ruleset, just that Pathfinder is more than just Golarion.Except we're talking about a computer game, and getting "under the hood" isn't going to happen unless you're on the MMO programming team or you're a hacker. If you're just playing the game, it doesn't matter if it's rolling 1d20, 1d100, or 1d10,000 to determine attack rolls.
This statement is very, very wrong, Sean.
Every major MMO out there with a dedicated player base has quite a few hardcore people who will play around with the numbers and figure out what is going on under the hood. From spreadsheet jockey empires in EVE to the hardest of the hardcore raiders in WoW, the mechanics of any game are just like the content...eventually the players will figure it out, and it will happen about three times more quickly than the developers had anticipated.
Some do it for fun, some do it for a performance edge, but it is definitely something that must be taken into account, because when these guys get under the hood, if what they encounter is loltastic and breakable, or easily manipulated, word will get out and the game will go downhill very quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is, quite a lot of us are "auto mechanics" to continue your metaphor, and it does matter to us what's under the hood. Not to say what they make will be automatically terrible if it doesn't use the PFRPG ruleset, just that Pathfinder is more than just Golarion.Except we're talking about a computer game, and getting "under the hood" isn't going to happen unless you're on the MMO programming team or you're a hacker. If you're just playing the game, it doesn't matter if it's rolling 1d20, 1d100, or 1d10,000 to determine attack rolls.This statement is very, very wrong, Sean.
Every major MMO out there with a dedicated player base has quite a few hardcore people who will play around with the numbers and figure out what is going on under the hood. From spreadsheet jockey empires in EVE to the hardest of the hardcore raiders in WoW, the mechanics of any game are just like the content...eventually the players will figure it out, and it will happen about three times more quickly than the developers had anticipated.
Some do it for fun, some do it for a performance edge, but it is definitely something that must be taken into account, because when these guys get under the hood, if what they encounter is loltastic and breakable, or easily manipulated, word will get out and the game will go downhill very quickly.
being "auto-mechanic" in PnP, means that you can actually change the rules of the game to suit your group style. it's acceptable, because it only affects you/your group. nothing wrong with houserules.
there is difference between learning how car works and handles, and tweaking engine. in MMO, players do first, devs do second. all spreadsheets and parses can only show you how to play better and what are breakpoints, but they don't change the game itself. only how you play it.
also, in MMO, computer does all the calculations, which means players don't have to know the rules, at all. not that player shouldn't, note. learning how things work, as you have noted, only becomes more involved, when things are not "in your face". but, ideally, new players can easily walk into a game and start playing without learning mechanics.
in the end, it really doesn't matter how things work, as long as they produce desired result.
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What I mean is that what I care about is how fun the game is to play above any sort of slavish devotion to a preexisting set of rules.
How "fun" something is is relative. Personally I think almost all games today are so "fun" it is sickening. I don't want another stereotype easy to play casual shooter RPG. For once I'd like an in depth RPG that uses strategy and stays closer to the core rules.
If you want more actiony and "fun" games in the same genre you have a whole heap of them. DDO and all other WoW-clones.
I didn't say slavish devotion to the core rules...I said MORE similar to the core roles....without turning everything into a shooter.
Besides...what you want is a slavish devotion to the MMO standard of today. Why aren't you playing any of the plethora of the games that are out there? Heck...you even have the grand-master-WoW-clone coming out real soon...(SWToR). If you want to play something where you will be tricked to think its D&D you have DDO...
Like a developer for Xcom said "Strategy games are not modern" (in reply to why the upcoming Xcom game will break the long standing chain of being strategy games and instead be a shooter).
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Goblin Squad Member
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How "fun" something is is relative. Personally I think almost all games today are so "fun" it is sickening.
You need to explain yourself far better than this.
Because when we read "fun" we actually think of fun. You haven't said anything here except that you find fun sickening. Which is actually a pretty good reason to disregard whatever you say.
I don't want another stereotype easy to play casual shooter RPG.
Okay, see. This.
First, I don't think you know what a shooter is.
There are a few types of video game that can be called a "shooter". First-person shooter games like Call of Duty are referred to as shooters (and, to a lesser extent, so are third-person shooters like Resident Evil). On-rails shooters like Star Fox or House of the Dead are referred to as shooters. Shoot-em-ups like the Raiden series are referred to as shooters.
MMORPGs are not shooters. At least, not the ones you like to call shooters. There isn't really any shooter-like gameplay in DDO. Or WoW.
Also, I'm not really sure how you're able to describe a game like DDO or WoW as casual. Obviously, both support casual play; you can play for short periods over an extended length of time and still make progress. But both demand a pretty significant level of commitment and skill in order to achieve the full breadth of what is achievable in the game.
Also, the word you're looking for is "stereotypical," not "stereotype." It's been bugging me for a while now.
If you want more actiony and "fun" games in the same genre you have a whole heap of them. DDO and all other WoW-clones.
You also need to stop using the term "WoW-clone" so freely. Many of the games you're calling "WoW-clones" are not that similar to WoW at all. You're just sort of using it as a blanket, near-meaningless term to describe any MMO you don't like playing.
Besides...what you want is a slavish devotion to the MMO standard of today.
I don't think anyone actually wants this. I think you're just saying this because it makes it easier for you to argue against everyone else. What we want is an enjoyable game, but you're doing your best to push the idea that everything that's been popular in the last seven years is terrible and should be thrown out or ignored, and that's a really bad way to look at this.
Like a developer for Xcom said "Strategy games are not modern" (in reply to why the upcoming Xcom game will break the long standing chain of being strategy games and instead be a shooter).
Actually, he said "Pure strategy games are just not contemporary." (emphasis mine) Which is absolutely true. You can have deep strategy elements in a game, but there ought to be more to it than that.
there is difference between learning how car works and handles, and tweaking engine. in MMO, players do first, devs do second. all spreadsheets and parses can only show you how to play better and what are breakpoints, but they don't change the game itself. only how you play it.
Exactly. And despite all of those spreadsheets and number analysis, there's still info the devs don't release, and players are only able to reverse-engineer an approximation of how they think it works.
If you're a hardcore WOW player, I'm sure you can tell me what the hit rating cap is for a level 85 DPS warrior. Players have figured that out by testing.
But can you tell me if the WOW engine rolls 1d100 to determine hit/miss/block/dodge/parry? 1d1000? 1d10,000?
If an expansion changed the RNG for attack rolls by an order of magnitude (perhaps to accommodate the inflated stats on items in Cataclysm compared to previous expansions), but the net effect on gameplay was the same because the programmers added multipliers for all player stats to account for this, would you know?
That's the difference between studying an engine and tinkering with an engine. That's the difference between studying available game data and changing game data. If you can't tell the difference in gameplay, then the exact mechanics don't matter.
I removed a post and the replies to it. Act like adults. Also, flag it and move on.
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Easily solved. Give each action a time cost. Just like every other game, this, in combination with a server sequencing of action selection, gives you a relatively real-time simulation. I am not saying some rules will have to be bent...or even broken in an MMO adaptation, I am just answering the question of the thread from the perspective that an attempt could be made to stay as close to the Pathfinder ruleset as possible.
Woah...
I want to start by saying that I do not think the MMO should try to mimic the PnP system.
I will go on to say that the game you have described is emphatically not what I see at the gaming table so it would fail at its stated goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they make a game that, when I play it, feels like playing Pathfinder, then that's all I care. If to do that the game has to run on icecream-fed monkeys throwing darts at painted watermellons to determine the results of an attack, I have no problems with it.
Give me a Potemkin-esque game that's convincing enough, and I'll be throwing my money at it.
I am a little disappointed to find out that OGL can't really legally be used in MMOs... But it won't matter that much to me.
What will matter the most to me is if I can grapple my foes... If I can't grapple (there's already an MMO that does this, Vindictus), then I'll be even more of a sad-panda. Actually I'd love to see Combat Maneuvers in general, but Grappling has always had a special place in my heart (ever since my spikey-dwarf pops off creature's heads with minimal effort).
But I'll give it a try. I'll find it fun as long as it's not as repetitive and pre-packaged as WoW is... I grew bored with the repetition and sameness of that game... And by extension most MMOs like it (which is almost everything these days).
Still. I have high hopes for the PF MMO....
I am a little disappointed to find out that OGL can't really legally be used in MMOs...
Where did you find information saying that?
I really hope that is not the case but I wouldn't be surprised...
...that would mean everything working against this game being more D&D:ish and just promoting the thought of making it another actiony buttonmasher...
As if the marketforces where not enough...
Perhaps its time to drop the D&D brand...like Bioware did with Dragon Age...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with that is that the OGL has become the building blocks of the Pathfinder system... to remove the 'D&D branding' as you've put it means revising the entire system from the ground-up.
I think it's important to note that because the mechanics aren't the same, doesn't mean it need not necessarily feel like Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember correctly, the problem is not so much that the OGL forbids the use of the system in MMOs, but that it is very ambiguous in regards to it (speaking of "Computer language" in a very lean way).
Thus, it would be reasonable for the developers to be weary of using the OGL in the making of an MMO costing quite a bit of time and money on the basis of a sketchy and potentially problematic legal document.
The problem with that is that the OGL has become the building blocks of the Pathfinder system... to remove the 'D&D branding' as you've put it means revising the entire system from the ground-up.
Using self made D&D:ish rules was not my main question there. It was more of a side-step...and not solely pertaining to the PFO project but any possible upcoming MMO projects.
I think it's important to note that because the mechanics aren't the same, doesn't mean it need not necessarily feel like Pathfinder.
Mmyea...but haven't we seen enough of games who take the OGL too lightly?
Not sure what you mean Klaus.....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not sure what you mean Klaus.....
That the OGL does not prohibit the d20 system in MMOs. Rather, it is so vague regarding computer adaptations, that it would be very risky to make a game hoping that the licence doesn't get interpreted in an unfavourable way.
In other words, making a big investment based on sketchy legislation is often a very bad idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Elth
I completely agree that DDO could have been so much better if it hadn't relied on so much instancing. I also think this is one of the reason STO failed miserably. If STO had been done via the EVE way I think everyone would be playing it (not PvP but game mechanics).
@ everyone else:
With everyone talking about DDO, I'm suprised no one mentioned that DDO wasn't that popular because they decided to use Eberron as their play world. I liked Eberron but really, the Forgotten Realms would have been a smarter choice.
That being said I'm still excited for Pathfinder even though the River Kingdoms doesn't excite me all that much. Hopefully if the game takes off they can actually add more kingdoms. Mwangi Expanse or the Worldwound anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The OGL gives a basic framework which implies fair use. WotC could stall production with a court case that would kill the game due to costs involved, even if the case was successful for Paizo.
Using a proprietary system means that Goblinworks can work without fear of a cease an desist. Remember that Goblinworks is now positioned to deliver a product in direct competition to DDO which can avoid the mistakes they made. Wizards might want to try any reason to delay launch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gorbacz hits the proverbial nail on the head, I fear. One company's line is undergoing a great deal of financial stress while their competitor is still steaming along. Human Nature and all, but it's probably for the best that Pazio and Goblinworks leave as few openings for Legal Shenanigans as they can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point, calling this online game 'Pathfinder Online' is no more (or less) accurate than calling it 'Palladium Online' or 'Rolemaster Online' or 'Hero System Online' or 'Atlantis Online' or whatever. It's an online interpretation of a pen-and-paper RPG
The term "Pathfinder" was already used by Paizo even before them creating their own system. It's also the name of the Campaign Setting (and that's where the term would be used for first). I'm probably alone with this but if I use the term "Pathfinder", I'm not talking about the system 90% of the time.
So as far as I'm concerned, The game playing in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting is the same as WoW playing in the world of Warcraft which makes the name "Pathfinder Online" pretty accurate.
Now if the Campaign Setting would be called the Golarion Campaign Setting and the APs would be the Golarion Adventure Paths, then it would make no sense to call the game Pathfinder Online without using the rules system. On the other hand, I'd fully expect the game then to be called Golarion Online because I don't care for the underlying rules system too much as long as it serves to enhance playability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes it will matter. Names matter.
At this point, calling this online game 'Pathfinder Online' is no more (or less) accurate than calling it 'Palladium Online' or 'Rolemaster Online' or 'Hero System Online' or 'Atlantis Online' or whatever.
No.
Pathfinder Online is based in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting.
A campaign setting that predates the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.