Spelless Bard, Sneak Attackless Rogue

[Vuvu]

How would you make these? What would you give them in exchange?

This ignores the pervasive idea that Rogues are underpowered to begin with.

Pure theory craft this, but What would you do? I am kicking around trying to come up with an archetype

[TheDoctor]

Vuvu wrote:

How would you make these? What would you give them in exchange?

This ignores the pervasive idea that Rogues are underpowered to begin with.

Pure theory craft this, but What would you do? I am kicking around trying to come up with an archetype

Arcana Unleashed had a rogue without sneak attack. Instead, the class received bonus fighter feats.

As for the bard, either full BAB or a d10 hd but not both, but taking away the spells is just a cruel thing to do.

[Maxximilius]

TheDoctor wrote:

As for the bard, either full BAB or a d10 hd but not both, but taking away the spells is just a cruel thing to do.

In Pathfinder, it's the same thing, and no class nor archetype ever published breaks the format.

[donaldsangry]

You could give them(bards) more rounds of bardic music per day and some of the performances from Ultimate Magic. I believe that you can gain the performances as feats or in place of a spell known.

[Cheapy]

Sneak attackless rogue? Spell less bard?

Here's what I'd do.

Take the rogue. Beat him up to A) put him in his place, and B) steal Sneak Attack.

Now, give him Bardic Knowledge and limited bardic performances. These include: Inspire series, Fascinate, Distraction, Suggestion. Make them all (Ex).

Give Lore Master and Jack of All Trades at the levels bards usually get them.

Maybe give them an ability called "Oh god why do I exist".

Or this for a technically sneak attackless rogue.

What you seem to want is a non-magical skill monkey that doesn't suck, yes?

[Black_Lantern]

Vuvu wrote:

How would you make these? What would you give them in exchange?

This ignores the pervasive idea that Rogues are underpowered to begin with.

Pure theory craft this, but What would you do? I am kicking around trying to come up with an archetype

They're useless without those things? Also rogues are weak.

[Luminiere Solas]

i would simply merge the remaining pieces of the bard with the remaining pieces of the rogue. i would also tack the remaining pieces of the ninja to finish the class and ban all 3 of the original.

now you have a sneak attack less rogue and a spell less bard in the same class.

[Vuvu]

I've been pondering the Bard idea. I think I would keep Inspire Courage, Greatness, Fascinate. Think of the idea of giving brilliant speeches, maybe add/keep the Tactics Bardic Performance that the Detective has.

I would keep Bardic Knowledge, Jack of All Trades etc

Skills 8+Int

Bonus Feats-I was thinking giving them Imp Dirty Trick for free, then later on Greater Imp Dirty Trick. Then perhaps an occasional bonus feat that is NOT a combat feat.

Finally I was thinking of something like the the Skirmisher Ranger has. Things that are not magic, but have good effects. I haven't decided how many times, but certainly based off CHA (Virtuoso Points I will call them for now). Perhaps one based on each type of perform ability. To spitball it a little bit something like

Improvisation (Acting): Every actor find himself onstage at the wrong time, in the wrong place, missing a prop, or not knowing their lines. A truly good actor always is able to improv his way out of it. The Bard may spend 1 Virtuoso point when he finds himself flanked and can immediately take a 5 foot step to get out of it.

[Vuvu]

Cheapy wrote:

Sneak attackless rogue? Spell less bard?

What you seem to want is a non-magical skill monkey that doesn't suck, yes?

This was a fascinating idea, that I had forgotten about Cheapy.

And that might be what it turns out to be!! But really I just thought it would be fun to make one up!

[Vuvu]

I didn't think the idea was THAT bad. Nothing?!

[Waffle_Neutral]

I would give the rogue a limited selection of spells (mostly enchantment and illusion stuff) and I would give bard sneak attack dice.

[Mortuum]

I'd be tempted to give the rogue:

• free weapon finesse
• the option to add his Int to damage in place of strength when attacking with finesse
• Int to damage with crossbows and guns
• a progressive untyped bonus to dex-based attack rolls to keep his accuracy level with full BAB classes
• the option to use vital strike from 3rd level at the the cost of a -2 penalty to the attack roll. at 8th level the rogue can either use Improved Vital Strike or make a Vital Strike attack at no penalty. At 15th level the rogue can either use Greater Vital Strike or make an Improved Vital Strike attack at no penalty. Talents which reduced sneak attack dice reduce vital strike dice instead.
• the option to add 1 point of Int modifier per level to bluff, disguise and diplomacy checks in place of his Cha modifier
• the option to add one point of Dex modifier per level to his climb and swim checks in in place of his Str modifier
• Choose hexes or combat feats. At 5th level and every odd numbered level thereafter, you gain an ability of the type you chose, treating your fighter/witch level as your rogue level -4.