Chief Technical Officer
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I keep seeing people chiming in that developing an MMO is a dumb idea because MMOs cost huge amounts of money and it takes years to see a return on investment.
The thing is, once upon a time that was true... but it isn't anymore.
Even just a few years ago, before you could build your setting or your mechanics, you first had to build the tools that *let* you build the setting and the mechanics. Need trees? First build a tool that lets you build trees. Need characters? First build a tool that lets you build characters. Essentially, you had to start everything from scratch, and you had to spend lots of time (and therefore lots of money) just developing the tools to make the game. And that meant you had to spend ages and ages—and millions and millions—to make your MMO.
The thing is, this isn't true anymore. Maybe word hasn't gotten out yet, but the industry has evolved to the point that the tools to build many of the working parts of an MMO are now things that you can license instead of build. Not only does that mean that you don't have to spend piles of money reinventing the wheel, but it means that you can focus your resources on the things that are unique to your game, and it means that you can get down to building an actual playable game much sooner. And that last part means that you can launch faster, and *that* means you can start recouping development costs sooner.
And the fact that you don't have to spend as much also means that you don't need as big a player base to turn a profit as you would if you built everything from scratch.
It still requires *plenty* of skilled people, money, and time to make an MMO, but it doesn't have to require a bankroll the size of a movie studio anymore, and it doesn't have to have a player base the size of WoW to be successful.
I think that most people are looking at the production budgets of the recent "major" MMOs like Rift ($50 million) or Star Wars: The Old Republic ($100 million, if I remember right), and forgetting that really cheaply-produced MMOs like Perfect World are extremely common. Or maybe they're just thinking that Pathfinder Online deserves the budget of Rift or TOR, rather than a lower-budget MMO. I dunno.
This is good to know, as long as you guys pick an engine that can support large scale warfare if that is the intention.
I am curious to what kind of subscriber numbers would yield a profitable MMO. I asked Ryan in another thread but I think my post was lost amongst the tears.
I know that Bioware has set the benchmark for their success with The Old Republic, despite its enormous budget, at 500,000 subscribers. So presumably, something significantly lower than that.
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Chief Technical Officer
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This is good to know, as long as you guys pick an engine that can support large scale warfare if that is the intention.
I am curious to what kind of subscriber numbers would yield a profitable MMO. I asked Ryan in another thread but I think my post was lost amongst the tears.
I think that's not a question we'd be comfortable answering to anyone other than a qualified investor. However, I will say that if you ask 50 MMO players that question and average the answers together, I suspect you'd end up with a number that's much too high.
(Also, subscriber numbers don't tell you the whole story, as free players' microtransaction options will account for a lot of revenue.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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...and it doesn't have to have a player base the size of WoW to be successful.
Oh, and the fact that you can succeed with a relatively small player base also means that you'll spend a whole lot less on infrastructure that scales based on the number of players, like bandwidth and server hardware.
Goblinworks Founder
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...and it doesn't have to have a player base the size of WoW to be successful.Oh, and the fact that you can succeed with a relatively small player base also means that you'll spend a whole lot less on infrastructure that scales based on the number of players, like bandwidth and server hardware.
Cool, what you've said is pretty much what I expected anyway.
I know you can't divulge specifics but what you've said is enough.Over the years I think I have gathered enough that the sweet mark is around 200k but I have heard of successful ventures with only 70k active players.
I remember reading an article about EvE online back in 2008 where it was rumored that they had $60 or $90million in profit with 300k (very rough numbers on my part, I'm not going to dig up the specifics).
Many people seem to think that you need to compete with Blizzards umpteen million to be successful which is definitely not the case.
Really, I had no idea. So, the tools to create a MMO are patented under standard copyright law? That makes sense. That is good new!
I am not a programmer. Therefore, my question is - generally speaking, how limited is the innovativeness of a new MMO limited by the tools of a pre-existing, loaned MMO creating tool? For example, can one get better looking trees in a newer MMO with the same tool that was used to construct an older MMO?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Really, I had no idea. So, the tools to create a MMO are patented under standard copyright law? That makes sense. That is good new!
Well, patents and copyrights are different things—computer code is copyrighted, while specific design concepts can be patented, generally speaking. But, yes, the point is that software developers can and do sell or license tools that we can use to build our MMO.
I am not a programmer. Therefore, my question is - generally speaking, how limited is the innovativeness of a new MMO limited by the tools of a pre-existing, loaned MMO creating tool? For example, can one get better looking trees in a newer MMO with the same tool that was used to construct an older MMO?
It varies. Odds are good that we'll be starting with a core engine that comes with a lot of the tools we need, and we'll supplement that with other tools from other sources. In some cases, we may have deals with the vendor that allow us to make feature requests for those tools; in other cases, we may just have to work with what's already there.
However, even that latter case isn't the end of the world. Let's go with a completely hypothetical example using trees. If the tool we have can only produce trees where, let's say, every leaf is symmetrical, but we really want asymmetrical leaves, we might be able to use the tool to create trees with symmetrical leaves and then write our own component to add asymmetry to the leaves on the trees we just made, and we'd still be way ahead relative to writing our own tree maker from scratch.
Goblin Squad Member
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Really, I had no idea. So, the tools to create a MMO are patented under standard copyright law?
Er.
Okay, so, patents and copyrights are two different things. They both fall under the heading of intellectual property law.
Second, no one really has a patent on "tools to create MMO games." That's a little broad for a patent. What you do have are a bunch of companies who figured, "Hey, these MMO things are pretty popular but they take a horrendously long time to develop from scratch. Let's make a set of MMO creation tools that will speed this process up, and then sell licenses for the use of these tools to development houses!"
Essentially, they're doing a part of the developer's work for them, and charging for it. Because that part is the same part that pretty much every modern MMO developer needs, they can sell it to a bunch of different developers, saving the developers a lot of time and making them a lot of money. It's the American way.
I am not a programmer. Therefore, my question is - generally speaking, how limited is the innovativeness of a new MMO limited by the tools of a pre-existing, loaned MMO creating tool?
That depends on the engine they license. There are a small handful out there, and each has its differences.
For example, can one get better looking trees in a newer MMO with the same tool that was used to construct an older MMO?
Yes. Developers will often create their own art/modeling assets based on the needs of the project.
EDIT: Argh. Ninja'd.
Launching an MMO has been compared to launching a space mission. Not positively.
To be blunt, I do not mean this in an insulting way, but I think you are way, way over your heads. Especially when it looks as if you are poo-pooing the potential costs in time, money, and effort.
Rift and Warhammer Online used someone else's engine, too (specifically the Gamebryo engine).
Rift took ~5 years (!), Warhammer a little over 3. Rift's developers claim to have spent US$50,000,000+. Just one zero away from an accurate topic!
The engine helps a lot and you certainly don't need Rift's incredible budget, but it's not a -- wait, those are theme park games! UH OOOOOOOOOOH
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Goblin Squad Member
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...wait, those are theme park games! UH OOOOOOOOOOH
Yeah, exactly. This is what WoW has done unto us. MMO == WoW == big expensive theme park == sucess equals 50Mil subscribers.
This is what Managers of the studios that develop classic big MMOs seem to be thinking.
Really, SW:TOR did cost 100 Mil? Sorry I don't see it. Saw the beta footage including some "let's plays", read the tests from veteran players, wasn't impressed. Just look at the movement of your avatar, graceful is something different. I bet a good part of this money went into licenses, gimmicks and in game sequences rather than into the actual game play.
I rather want Pathfinder to be a fast and "budgety" game that plays great even if it misses some things than an inflated MMO that tries to get it all and is actually same old, same old and thus boring after 3 months.
Look at the story of Minecraft to see what I mean (that doens't mean I want PFO to be like Minecraft, just that Minecraft is a very good example of a great game despite being somewhat unfinished and with a budget look).
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Goblinworks Founder
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...wait, those are theme park games! UH OOOOOOOOOOHYeah, exactly. This is what WoW has done unto us. MMO == WoW == big expensive theme park == sucess equals 50Mil subscribers.
This is what Managers of the studios that develop classic big MMOs seem to be thinking.
Really, SW:TOR did cost 100 Mil? Sorry I don't see it. Saw the beta footage including some "let's plays", read the tests from veteran players, wasn't impressed. Just look at the movement of your avatar, graceful is something different. I bet a good part of this money went into licenses, gimmicks and in game sequences rather than into the actual game play.
I rather want Pathfinder to be a fast and "budgety" game that plays great even if it misses some things than an inflated MMO that tries to get it all and is actually same old, same old and thus boring after 3 months.
Look at the story of Minecraft to see what I mean (that doens't mean I want PFO to be like Minecraft, just that Minecraft is a very good example of a great game despite being somewhat unfinished and with a budget look).
A lot of the old republics budget was probably spent on voice actors. They had some pretty big names in there.
A lot of the old republics budget was probably spent on voice actors. They had some pretty big names in there....wait, those are theme park games! UH OOOOOOOOOOHYeah, exactly. This is what WoW has done unto us. MMO == WoW == big expensive theme park == sucess equals 50Mil subscribers.
This is what Managers of the studios that develop classic big MMOs seem to be thinking.
Really, SW:TOR did cost 100 Mil? Sorry I don't see it. Saw the beta footage including some "let's plays", read the tests from veteran players, wasn't impressed. Just look at the movement of your avatar, graceful is something different. I bet a good part of this money went into licenses, gimmicks and in game sequences rather than into the actual game play.
I rather want Pathfinder to be a fast and "budgety" game that plays great even if it misses some things than an inflated MMO that tries to get it all and is actually same old, same old and thus boring after 3 months.
Look at the story of Minecraft to see what I mean (that doens't mean I want PFO to be like Minecraft, just that Minecraft is a very good example of a great game despite being somewhat unfinished and with a budget look).
Don't forget Georgie Lucas' cut. I am sure it wasn't peanuts.
Link to article discussing SW:TOR budget. SW - TOR Budget
I linkied it for you.
Link to article discussing SW:TOR budget. SW - TOR BudgetI linkied it for you.
Thanks. I am still rather new to this. I deleted my orriginal post to save room.
I will look into this when it's out of course but I've never even heard of Goblinworks or whatever they are called. All I know is that small budget MMOs don't seem to do well. Because of this I'm trying to not get my hopes that high.
Big budget MMOs like WoW and Rifts or one from a better known developer would probably shake off some fears. I'm not saying the current developer isn't good or can't pull it off, just some MMO veterans like me are wary.
Good luck, I really want to see this become one of the heavyweights.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will look into this when it's out of course but I've never even heard of Goblinworks or whatever they are called.
You've never heard of Goblinworks because it's a newly founded company. Brand spankin' new.
All I know is that small budget MMOs don't seem to do well. Because of this I'm trying to not get my hopes that high. Big budget MMOs like WoW and Rifts or one from a better known developer would probably shake off some fears. I'm not saying the current developer isn't good or can't pull it off, just some MMO veterans like me are wary.
Good luck, I really want to see this become one of the heavyweights.
I'm tired of seeing this over and over again. As soon as people hear MMO all they think of is Everquest/WoW/Rifts/ToR. Reset your brain to remove any preconceived notion of what an MMORPG is and just take the part about it being lots of people playing online together in a role-playing game.
Start with Minecraft. Add way more players, fancier graphics, a bit more rules and structure to handle all those extra players and the crazy stuff they're bound to try to do (griefing), throw in some NPCs and Quests, and the kingdom building rules from Kingmaker to allow for player-driven towns, cities, castles, etc.
That's what I envision this to be. It's still an MMORPG, but has nothing to do with WoW and its clones.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Rift took ~5 years (!), Warhammer a little over 3.
And by using the engine from Champions Online, Cryptic was able to release Star Trek Online just 13 months after acquiring the license.
Yes, one of the big criticisms of STO is that it was a bit light on content on release, and maybe should have spent a bit longer in development, but that's not the point here. The point is that it no longer needs to take 5 years—and pockets deep enough to cover 5 years of operating expenses—to develop a MMO. (Heck, even if STO spent *twice* as long in development, it still would have come out in just over 2 years.)
(Also, I'm *not* saying we're shooting for a 13-month development schedule—we are not. I'm just saying it has been done.)
...wait, those are theme park games! UH OOOOOOOOOOHYeah, exactly.
I was being sarcastic! That reply is really stupid, especially when the game you're using as an example isn't even an MMORPG. Hope that helps!
(Also, I'm *not* saying we're shooting for a 13-month development schedule—we are not. I'm just saying it has been done.)
I was mostly pointing out to the thread that licensing a game engine is not a magic bullet! Some games with existing engines don't take much time at all, some do.
On the other hand I don't exactly see you spending millions of dollars on stuffing George Lucas' fat face with tortillas. I don't think anyone here is made of straw and under the impression that you're aiming to be a huge-budget game (or hoping you fail, or at least I'm not), but I still think this is kind of jumping into the deep end. Especially since Dancey apparently wants PFO to be the WoW to EVE Online's Everquest!
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Assuming there is sufficient funding, I would rather that PFO have a "longer" development period to make sure the game is good and that the designers can seriously think about all our suggestions on these boards and how to best incorporate the feasible/best ideas into the game – even with a licensed MMO toolset as a framework. Just saying.
Star Wars: The Old Republic Online = $135+ million in development costs and licensing to Lucas Arts or the Lucas conglomerate parent company. SWTOR currently holds the record for initial development costs.
There are approximately 1.6 million pre-orders. Of course this number will increase more so than decrease.
There are 3 Packages to choose from:
1. Standard (the base game and colored crystal to make your lightsaber or energy weapon shoot different colors) = $59.99
2. Deluxe (the above plus more in game gadgets and fluff) = $79.99
3. Collector's Edition (the above plus more in game gadgets and fluff, and fluff items in the physical world) = $149.99
This includes 1 month of free access.
Maintenance or Access fees = $12 - 15 depending what pay increment you choose.
Numbers -
1. Average the 3 selections together, divide by 3 for an average, multiplied by 1.6 million for the approximate.
Current approximate monies earned with the box set = $155,200,000+/-
Of course, not everyone is going to purchase the Deluxe or Collector's set. However, if everyone purchases the Standard Set - it comes out to $95,984,000
2. Selecting the $12 a month in access fees, this equates to $144 a year multiplied by 1.6 million preorders = $230,400,000+ because the 1.6 million is surely to increase.
Of course, now you have to subtract the overhead -
1. Any outstanding development costs.
2. Developers - for bug fixes (QA) and more content
3. Network and Server Support - hopefully 24/7
4. In game tech support - hopefully better than any prior (current MMO) In other words, world class like Cisco TAC is the networking industy. However, I will settle for they can actually do something if bug occurs instead of being mostly inept like LOTRO Tech support is.
5. Depending on the load, any where from (1) T-1 to an OC-3+ line to handle the required bandwidth. Hopefully, they require at least (1) DS3 in at least two data centers for redundancy which means they have enough players with some scalability before adding more T1, DS3, or even an OC-3+ line. From my experience, there is no such thing as true redundancy at a single location unless the fiber comes from (2) different providers from (2) separate directions. What I have witnessed, is all of the fiber, no matter what provider, comes to a single point somewhere in town in which a fire or fiber cut will cause an outage. This is what happened at the WTC in New York on 9/11 and the Bart Tunnel fire in the Bay Area in 2005 I believe.
6. Server farm
7. Scaling the network and server farm for more users coming online.
8. Rent
9. Utilities
10. Everything else I can not currently think of.
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Chief Technical Officer
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2. Selecting the $12 a month in access fees, this equates to $144 a year multiplied by 1.6 million preorders = $230,400,000+ because the 1.6 million is surely to increase.
You haven't factored in attrition. If they follow the usual MMO pattern, 50% to 75% of the people who start in any given month are likely to have moved on within six to nine months. (Fortunately, the ones who don't leave in that period tend to stick around—on and off—for years.) If half of those preorders leave within six months, your annualized number would need to be reduced by a bit more than half.
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Goblinworks Founder
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2. Selecting the $12 a month in access fees, this equates to $144 a year multiplied by 1.6 million preorders = $230,400,000+ because the 1.6 million is surely to increase.You haven't factored in attrition. If they follow the usual MMO pattern, 50% to 75% of the people who start in any given month are likely to have moved on within six to nine months. (Fortunately, the ones who don't leave in that period tend to stick around—on and off—for years.) If half of those preorders leave within six months, your annualized number would need to be reduced by a bit more than half.
Indeed I am one of those 1.6 million that pre-ordered and I can guarantee that I wont be playing it for much longer than 30 days.
I would expect the 1.6 million pre-orders of TOR to take a dip after the first month. They might continue to gain new blood but I do not think they have the right design to retain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OMG you all rave on about these big name MMOs. But anyone of a good age would have heard of the great grandfather of MMO's. The game that started the whole trend in MMO's.
"Ultima Online"
People have mentioned Ultima Online countless times in this forum. Some people seem to have an almost mystical dedication to the memory of the game. It's weird. It was an okay game, but it's 15 years old and a lot has happened since then.
OMG! Some folks don't bother to read these threads, and then post false assumptions!
I could not correctly number the times I've heard a person say "Remember in Ultima, when you could do X?" and the response was "Wow, that would suck, I'm glad they don't do that anymore..."
I for one am sick of reading references to Ultima Online, Everquest, and Neverwinter Nights. They made those games, and those games ran their course...years ago. There is a reason that nobody (or not very many people) play these games anymore, and it isn't just the outdated graphics and engines.
The world of online gaming has moved on, and it is time to let go of the past. Most "features" of these older games that have been phased out were phased out for a reason, that reason typically being that more people find those particular features less than fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I for one am sick of reading references to Ultima Online, Everquest, and Neverwinter Nights. They made those games, and those games ran their course...years ago. There is a reason that nobody (or not very many people) play these games anymore, and it isn't just the outdated graphics and engines.
Sadly for you, Ultima Online is the only reference we have to a sandbox MMORPG in a fantasy setting and Neverwinter Nights the only successful incarnation of a pen and paper system on a multiplayer platform.
If you were making a modern western, would you ignore John Wayne?
For the record, thousands still play Ultima Online in its 1998 state and have done for a decade; the same unchanged game.
♠ Join the Pathfinder Online community in IRC | Server: irc.stratics.com (6667) Channel: #pfo | We'll see you there! ♠
For the record, thousands still play Ultima Online in its 1998 state and have done for a decade; the same unchanged game.
Thousands still play EQ too.
Thousands still play Donkey Kong religiously as well.
A miniscule couple of thousands is not the end-all targeted player base for any new game.
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Eve is still my Favorite. I have been playing that one from the start. Honestly I have always hated Wow. They never seemed to put the work in that so many other MMO did at the time. I worked in the industry for years so I usually get to play most new MMO for free. So maybe what i will play for is different then your average consumer.
I would not like to be responsible for the Pathfinder MMO, it will be a hard balancing act. It need to feel like Pathfinder with out playing like it.
I love playing Healers and controllers. But most People seem to like DPS of some type. The game need to work with out the buff and heal that goes on in a table top game. But still work with it.
I like the force party mechanic. My big question is factions. In most there is a good and evil or a 3 way pvp. One of the things I like about Eve is the way the faction work in that game.
But I do not get paid the big money so Ignore everything i said!
HAHA
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Goblin Squad Member
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For the record, thousands still play Ultima Online in its 1998 state and have done for a decade; the same unchanged game.
Thousands still play EQ too.
Thousands still play Donkey Kong religiously as well.
A miniscule couple of thousands is not the end-all targeted player base for any new game.
And genre's rise and fall from popularity just like fashion. It's a style of game, no different from FPS's RPG's Platformers etc... in the single player world. Because nobody has tried it in years does not mean it can't be successful again. Just like there were sucessful 2D platformers that came out mid PSX and N64 era, even though the systems specialized in 3D graphics. A lasting addicting everchanging game has potential to be great. Many people are getting very sick of the same formula of run through a dungeon, go out run through quests to kill X number of enemies games, and if you aren't well good for you, go play them, there's hundreds out!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thousands still play EQ too.Thousands still play Donkey Kong religiously as well.
A miniscule couple of thousands is not the end-all targeted player base for any new game.
I was not referring to appealing to the literal players. I was referring to players playing the same MMORPG in a static state of development for the past 13 years. A brand of sandbox MMORPG with such high re-playability is without rival and relative to the playerbase at the time in 98-99, it has maintained an amazing relative % of that number.
This is clearly something that should not be learnt from (?)
♠ Join the Pathfinder Online community in IRC | Server: irc.stratics.com (6667) Channel: #pfo | We'll see you there! ♠
Thousands still play EQ too.Thousands still play Donkey Kong religiously as well.
A miniscule couple of thousands is not the end-all targeted player base for any new game.
I was not referring to appealing to the literal players. I was referring to players playing the same MMORPG in a static state of development for the past 13 years. A brand of sandbox MMORPG with such high re-playability is without rival and relative to the playerbase at the time in 98-99, it has maintained an amazing relative % of that number.
This is clearly something that should not be learnt from (?)
And my point was that a game as static and unchanging as an 80s arcade game is just as popular with a select few people, and that just about any decent game can have a hardcore following of fanatics who will stay devoted for years and years. Ultima Online is neither unique nor revolutionary in this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultima Online is neither unique nor revolutionary in this.
Because popular game forums are full of people screaming 'make it more like Pacman'.
UO is still the only fantasy MMORPG which offers a player driven item economy. Open PvP & full loot. An open and explorable player geography and player housing. Non combatant classes and a largely viable arena for roleplay.
You haven't thought this through. UO is directly applicable and relevant in modern day MMORPGs as there's a handful of serious titles trying to recreate integral elements of its gameplay experience...including this one.
♠ Join the Pathfinder Online community in IRC | Server: irc.stratics.com (6667) Channel: #pfo | We'll see you there! ♠
Ultima Online is neither unique nor revolutionary in this.Because popular game forums are full of people screaming 'make it more like Pacman'.
UO is still the only fantasy MMORPG which offers a player driven item economy. Open PvP & full loot. An open and explorable player geography and player housing. Non combatant classes and a largely viable arena for roleplay.
You haven't thought this through. UO is directly applicable and relevant in modern day MMORPGs as there's a handful of serious titles trying to recreate integral elements of its gameplay experience...including this one.
I am not arguing that UO was not a good game and is not relevant. I am saying that the fact that some people still play it is irrelevant.
Popular MMO forums are full of people screaming for and against every major issue or potential feature out there.
And some of those UO features are good things, others have have been copied to less than desirable effect, and still others have been phased out because not implementing them was the more popular route, but it was not and is not the pinnacle of MMORPGs.
I'm tired of seeing this over and over again. As soon as people hear MMO all they think of is Everquest/WoW/Rifts/ToR. Reset your brain to remove any preconceived notion of what an MMORPG is and just take the part about it being lots of people playing online together in a role-playing game.
All of the MMOs that have been released so far have brought interesting things to the study of game design. You may personally have beef with specifics of each game, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have good features.
Everquest had an atmosphere of danger, mystery and exploration when it was young, and any MMO would do well to recapture that feeling.
WoW brought a greater degree of interactivity to gameplay and, once and for all, got away from the "Wizards versus Warriors" mechanics.
Rift really does have an interesting "class" system, though it might not be absolutely original, it is unique enough to be worth more study.
Is ToR even out yet?