On top of that, Ive often found that most DMs under 3.X and PF take the 2K value of that +1 sword, and deduct it from my total gp on the loot, yet if I try to sell the stupid thing, its a quest I didnt want to a town big enough to afford being able to sell the piece of junk. And when I sell it, I only get 1000gp. So Im stiffed loot. Better to make what I want/need, and sell everything to pay for it.
Thats pretty nasty!
Loot allocation should be a party admin matter though, not a GM one.
My preference is to pool all the loot and then price it as though we 'sold it' and then everyone is entitled to an equal share of the pool. If someone wants an item then they notionally 'buy' it and deduct the SALE price from their share of the pot.
So if you got a +1 Sword we would deduct 1000 from your share of 'gold'.
Seems to work out well.
Thats pretty nasty!
Loot allocation should be a party admin matter though, not a GM one.
My preference is to pool all the loot and then price it as though we 'sold it' and then everyone is entitled to an equal share of the pool. If someone wants an item then they notionally 'buy' it and deduct the SALE price from their share of the pot.
So if you got a +1 Sword we would deduct 1000 from your share of 'gold'.
Seems to work out well.
That is the fairest way. And the way most parties I've been in did.
That is the fairest way. And the way most parties I've been in did.
Thats pretty nasty!
Loot allocation should be a party admin matter though, not a GM one.
My preference is to pool all the loot and then price it as though we 'sold it' and then everyone is entitled to an equal share of the pool. If someone wants an item then they notionally 'buy' it and deduct the SALE price from their share of the pot.
So if you got a +1 Sword we would deduct 1000 from your share of 'gold'.
Seems to work out well.
What happens if you manage to get a hold of a really expensive piece that's worth more than the rest of the loot combined or at least is worth more than any single share? Are you stuck having to sell it although a single character could make really excellent us of it?
I've been saddled with that method of dividing up treasure once in an online D&D game and it sucked.
This is where your losing it. The "Crafting Caper" IS a great investment of capacity, but it has significant payoff in the form of extra wealth. Denying the player that extra wealth defeats the purpose of the feat.
OK so then you are taking the opposite stance of all the Crafting Wizards who suggest that the investment they make is not that great and they are "still able to hold their own" and are "just as effective as non crafting wizards".
In which case, your investment in the Feats means that until significant time has passed for you to amass the wealth required to build more items you aren't doing the job as good as a dedicated Blasto-Wiz and therefore the party has to carry you. Given that your contribution is now LESS than it should be, the party is well within their rights to pay you only a fractional share of the loot.
It's ok though, because you will make back the money when you craft stuff.
If all we are getting is discounts at your shop, then it's probably better just to be your friend and stop by when we need something and instead take Blasto-Wiz on adventures instead, because he at least pulls his weight and we will be financially in front.
It's not up to the party to subsidise your Playstyle choice of being a crafter.
Being a Crafter means you make your gear for 50% cost, that was the benefit for you from the Feat. You are trading that for effectiveness on the table, which is a burden you are now placing on the party - charging them to carry you is a bit far.
Guess we need to stop subsidising rogues.
They bring sub-par damage to the party a bard handles most of their "skillfulness" and can even handle trapfinding which any character can do up to magic traps and oh look the wizard can detect magic at will.
Yep rogues are only getting part of party treasure now if we even take them along since my wizard, who by the way has yet to not pull his adventuring weight, might get reduced in shares.
And remember those who say that X class isn't charging for Y feat or abiltiy, you aren't asking them to spend 8 hours a day of their off time power attacking or opening locks or healing.
Guess we need to stop subsidising rogues.
They bring sub-par damage to the party a bard handles most of their "skillfulness" and can even handle trapfinding which any character can do up to magic traps and oh look the wizard can detect magic at will.
Yep rogues are only getting part of party treasure now if we even take them along since my wizard, who by the way has yet to not pull his adventuring weight, might get reduced in shares.
And remember...
though people aren't going to ask a person to craft in combat.
there is no right answer here. if your group thinks it is okay to make a profit off of the rest of the party so be it. Personally i don't like that because it give the crafter more wealth relative to the rest of the party, but there are other ways to deal with that.
but if the group doesn't care and still has fun, who cares?
If i craft just for me i have more wealth so the problem is the feats not the use of them.
And remeber they save money thus having more wealth by coming to me so while i end up slightly wealthier (i only charge 10% to my party usually jerks pay 25%) they come ahead as well.
See here's the thing that irks me...
THERE IS NO OFFTIME.
You aren't being paid to work in the offtime because there isn't any, especially in any meaningful sense to you the player.
I reject the notion of the wizard losing his 'downtime' because it just isn't happening in any way shape r form, so to say he is being compensated for its loss is farcical.
So your games don't take place in a realistic world?
Your parties adventure nonstop until level 20 never breaking for any time for themselves or their families or even their guilds or gods?
The thought that when we finish clearing out the goblin warrens we instantly learn new skills on our way to the orc burrows without more than a day in town to sell stuff is ludicrious.
Also by that theory that means that we adventure or travel for 8 hours rest for 8 hours and spend my other 8 slaving away for the party what are they doing for that 8 of the adverturing day it better be worth the money they aren't paying me for my 8.
I play the game through my characters eyes i view situations through them like i thougth by all your post about the party subsidising me you did. However i can now tell you play a game about numbers when you say something about someone being unoptimized not a game where you get into the Role part of Role Playing Game.
Also their is no call for yelling.
So your games don't take place in a realistic world?
Indeed they do!
The pace and tempo of adventures usually means that Team Adventurer doesn't usually have a lot of 'free time' on their hands. Orcish hordes invading, marauding dragons, Thieves guilds out of control, political machinations and all around Shennanigans means a party doesn't really get to go back to their day job at Burger King between soirees into peril.
Adventurers are not 'normal people', they don't 9-5 it for 40 years and then retire on the company pension.
There's a lot going on, a ton of stuff, but it isn't "Day Jobs & Doldrums".
Paladins and Clerics have a flock to tend, Rogues have Intel to gather, Fighters have training to do and information to gather, Wizards are possibly learning new spells or crafting new weapons, blah blah blah.
In the game I'm running at the moment the Paladin of the party spends all his spare time carrying out an almost endless looking list of tasks and demands on behalf of the Clergy and the Crown, both of whom he is sworn to serve... there isn't any 'raking in the cashola in his spare time', there flat out isn't any, rather his duty and service seems to cost him hand over fist.
The Rogue is usually off scouting the nearby towns for information and dealing with the various guilds... its just non stop.
So there ISN'T spare time... everyone has a job to do, and the Wizzy is included in this - so no he doesn't get paid more because neither do they.
AS A PLAYER there is similarly no loss of time, nor any expended effort.
When it comes to play time the crafts Wizard is not being told 'Sorry Bro, we are adventuring while you craft so you have to sit out this session', in fact he doesn't miss a single minute of game time, so what was the impact on him?
So yeah we have 'realistic gameplay', very much so.
I'm quite confident that I'm not the only person that has seen:
DM: "OK, guys, you've got a couple weeks before the caravan's ready to leave. What do you want to do?"
Bard: "I'm going to try one last time to woo Lady Belle."
Fighter: "I'm going to compete in the arena to see if I can't get some extra spending money."
Cleric: "I'm going to spend my time with the Deacon, researching that tome we found in the ruins of St. Ajora's Cathedral."
Wizard: "I'm going to craft that sword Fighter's been getting onto me about making."Bard, Fighter, and Cleric all get additional character development and spotlight time. Wizard gets no such thing.
Oh here we go again.
That Bard, Cleric, and Fighter get nothing of the sort.
What did the Bard get - "Yeah ok you finally pull her, congrats"
Cleric - "Make a Religion check, with a +2 for having a library, then a Spellcraft, whats that? ok cool the book does Blehblhebleh"
Fighter - Ok you died in the arena, sorry. Roll up a new character while the Wizard finishes off the math on how much the party owes.
What did that take, twenty seconds?
Spotlight my foot.
The Wizard is not crafting 24/7, he can just as easily be doing extra stuff too.
So your games don't take place in a realistic world?
Indeed they do!
The pace and tempo of adventures usually means that Team Adventurer doesn't usually have a lot of 'free time' on their hands. Orcish hordes invading, marauding dragons, Thieves guilds out of control, political machinations and all around Shennanigans means a party doesn't really get to go back to their day job at Burger King between soirees into peril.
Adventurers are not 'normal people', they don't 9-5 it for 40 years and then retire on the company pension.
There's a lot going on, a ton of stuff, but it isn't "Day Jobs & Doldrums".
Paladins and Clerics have a flock to tend, Rogues have Intel to gather, Fighters have training to do and information to gather, Wizards are possibly learning new spells or crafting new weapons, blah blah blah.
In the game I'm running at the moment the Paladin of the party spends all his spare time carrying out an almost endless looking list of tasks and demands on behalf of the Clergy and the Crown, both of whom he is sworn to serve... there isn't any 'raking in the cashola in his spare time', there flat out isn't any, rather his duty and service seems to cost him hand over fist.
The Rogue is usually off scouting the nearby towns for information and dealing with the various guilds... its just non stop.
So there ISN'T spare time... everyone has a job to do, and the Wizzy is included in this - so no he doesn't get paid more because neither do they.
AS A PLAYER there is similarly no loss of time, nor any expended effort.
When it comes to play time the crafts Wizard is not being told 'Sorry Bro, we are adventuring while you craft so you have to sit out this session', in fact he doesn't miss a single minute of game time, so what was the impact on him?So yeah we have 'realistic gameplay', very much so.
See this is very different than the breakdown others have given in your game the wizard is profiting from his crafting just not in money he is getting other things from his companions.
Not everyone's parties do this sometimes rogues bards fighters and such just take the week off and go drink and still expect their items done on time. Thats what i have been talking about here a party who does nothing in return.
Profit is not simply a matter of money and people are complaining of "profit".
In your example when the party gets severly hurt or even dead the paladins actions might save money on the raise spell the rogues actions might lead to us avoiding fines or prison time down the line.
But even if your party is balls to the wall they still should have down time if they ever plan on having familes and friends.
But even if your party is balls to the wall they still should have down time if they ever plan on having familes and friends.
Not really a huge priority for those in the profession of arms.
I have yet to see a player front up with a back story that starts as 'Lounge lizard and family guy 15th level fighter who is really heavily involved in sharing his domestic responsibilities'... no most of them are gritty orphans who were bullied as children (by the sheer weight of people with the reactionary trait) with somewhere between zero and none in family or connections (probably in the belief if they make their character a desparate loner the GM can't plot hook kidnap their loved ones) - Those Orcs sure leave a lot of orphans huh?
Maybe its the fact that most of my players are married women i have 3 of them and two guys so that might be why i get more relationship stuff bleeding in.
I'm quite confident that I'm not the only person that has seen:
DM: "OK, guys, you've got a couple weeks before the caravan's ready to leave. What do you want to do?"
Bard: "I'm going to try one last time to woo Lady Belle."
Fighter: "I'm going to compete in the arena to see if I can't get some extra spending money."
Cleric: "I'm going to spend my time with the Deacon, researching that tome we found in the ruins of St. Ajora's Cathedral."
Wizard: "I'm going to craft that sword Fighter's been getting onto me about making."Bard, Fighter, and Cleric all get additional character development and spotlight time. Wizard gets no such thing.
Oh here we go again.
That Bard, Cleric, and Fighter get nothing of the sort.
What did the Bard get - "Yeah ok you finally pull her, congrats"
Cleric - "Make a Religion check, with a +2 for having a library, then a Spellcraft, whats that? ok cool the book does Blehblhebleh"
Fighter - Ok you died in the arena, sorry. Roll up a new character while the Wizard finishes off the math on how much the party owes.What did that take, twenty seconds?
Spotlight my foot.
The Wizard is not crafting 24/7, he can just as easily be doing extra stuff too.
Not everyone fast forwards all downtime to get back into adventuring. Some groups (my present group for instance) actually enjoy playing through those interactions you ran through in 20 seconds. It isn't unusual for us to spend a few weeks (e.g. 2-3 sessions) playing out said downtime.
Suggesting that spending 8 hours a day of that downtime in a lab, in addition to 8 hours sleeping, doesn't undercut what the wizard can accomplish in the same amount of time is laughable from both an in character and out of character perspective.
Suggesting that spending 8 hours a day of that downtime in a lab, in addition to 8 hours sleeping, doesn't undercut what the wizard can accomplish in the same amount of time is laughable from both an in character and out of character perspective.
8 hours in the lab, 8 hours on the slab, and 8 hours doing 'other stuff'.
That 8 hours for 'other stuff' is the same amount of 8 hours the other guys have, it goes both ways.
IF we decide to 'play through' the stuff that just got handwaved then that 'stuff' will happen in off-gametime sessions. 'Game day' is for the whole team, not given to one person to play out their 'picking up the damsel' while the rest of the party watches on and eats all the beer and pretzels.
As I say, the Paladin has 8 hours work/8 hours sleep/8 hours other, as does the rogue and everyone else - the wizard is no worse or better off.
As I say, the Paladin has 8 hours work/8 hours sleep/8 hours other, as does the rogue and everyone else - the wizard is no worse or better off.
Unless that wizard is working on another character's behalf. While adventuring everyone is working to survive. In their own time though, if I'm working on stuff for you on weekends just as hard I do during the week, I expect to be paid. If the other characters are off doing their own thing and the wiz is holed up for a while basically filling work orders then he should get something for that unless he's just that swell of a guy, which few are.
Then the argument stands that if the whole Crafting caper is no great investment of capacity on behalf of the player, and involves little time and effort, then why are they being paid significant sums of money to do work that takes no time or effort on the party's behalf.the investment they make is not that great and they are "still able to hold their own" and are "just as effective as non crafting wizards".
which is a burden you are now placing on the party - charging them to carry you is a bit far.
Have you read the rules? Crafting requires a LOT of time and effort. It IS an investment on the character's part. Just because a GM hand waves away the time and effort spent in his game doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Would you be fine with a PC abusing another one just because it doesn't affect time at the table. For example, the strong Barbarian being forced to work as a slave in a fellow PCs mine, because the GM hand waved away the time spent. You think he should be REQUIRED to support any use of their time away from adventuring any way the party wants regardless of whether it makes sense or not. AND you say they also shouldn't get compensated for this.
WOW that's gall.
They spent feats on equipment effectively... so YES they are just as capable as the wizard with spell penetration feats just in a different way. So HOW exactly are they carrying you?! How can you NOT see what the person you quoted was trying to say? Lets say the group has two wizards. One focused on improved spell penetration while the other focused on crafting. They both show up to the first session. The first wizard's spells can affect a better range of targets then the second one. The second wizard has better AC and saves from his extra gear. Both are balanced against each other. You are saying the second wizard should be FORCED to work as a slave without compensation to the first wizard so that his AC and saves can be improved as well? NOW there is an imbalance. NOW the first wizard is clearly superior.
if your group thinks it is okay to make a profit off of the rest of the party so be it.
Make a profit? Huh? One character is trading something to another at a discounted rate. An exchange of goods profits BOTH parties. In this case the wizard is being Extra nice by offering a discount.
So if you got a +1 Sword we would deduct 1000 from your share of 'gold'.
Here is your problem. That sword is worth 2000 gold. If you have two fighters who want a +1 sword. You found one such sword and a big pile of coins. In your case the fighter who gets the sword for 1000 gold out of the loot pile is robbing the other fighter, who now has to go into town and buy his for 2000 gold. You are giving that first fighter 1000 gold extra loot over the rest of the party by using this system. If there was a +1 sword and 4000 gold loot between the two and you divided it your way one fighter gets a +1 sword and 1500 gold, the other gets 2500 gold. But since he has to buy his sword he ends up with a +1 sword and 500 gold. The only fair way to divide it is to apply the FULL 2000 gold value to that sword, then BOTH end up with a +1 sword and 1000 gold.
Unless that wizard is working on another character's behalf.
Why?
Who said anything of the sort?
Why is the wizard having to work 24/7 for the party? Why isn't he simply doing those items in his 8 hour work day? I'm lost on why the wizard is being forced at gunpoint to work 24/7 or where this is somehow 'expected'.
If that DOES happen then fair enough, however no one is suggesting it should.
Have you read the rules? Crafting requires a LOT of time and effort. It IS an investment on the character's part.
Meanwhile the Fighter is off training and everyone else has tough jobs to do as well... you seem to think only the Wizard has a job to do. He does his job, whilst the Barb is probably hitting the gym and doing endless sword drills. You seem to want to live in a very selective version of 'realistic'.
Here is your problem. That sword is worth 2000 gold. If you have two fighters who want a +1 sword. You found one such sword and a big pile of coins. In your case the fighter who gets the sword for 1000 gold out of the loot pile is robbing the other fighter, who now has to go into town and buy his for 2000 gold. You are giving that first fighter 1000 gold extra loot over the rest of the party by using this system. If there was a +1 sword and 4000 gold loot between the two and you divided it your way one fighter gets a +1 sword and 1500 gold, the other gets 2500 gold. But since he has to buy his sword he ends up with a +1 sword and 500 gold. The only fair way to divide it is to apply the FULL 2000 gold value to that sword, then BOTH end up with a +1 sword and 1000 gold.
I would suggest that you have a strange view of the world. It seems set on who is 'robbing' whom and a whole lot of other entitlement mentality problems.
Happy to simply sell the sword to the NPC broker and the two fighters get 1000 each just like everyone else, or they can 'rock paper scissors' it like grown ups.
We also have this crazy notion of 'you get this item, and I get the next one', that way the loot can work out over time. Everyone still gets a slice of pie.
Every now and then (shock horror) people even LOSE PART OF THEIR SHARE when a good item comes into the party that would exceed a players ability to buy it with his share - but as the asset benefits the party he even gets to keep it! Imagine that, putting the PARTY first instead of being greedy...!
This is where your losing it. The "Crafting Caper" IS a great investment of capacity, but it has significant payoff in the form of extra wealth. Denying the player that extra wealth defeats the purpose of the feat.
OK so then you are taking the opposite stance of all the Crafting Wizards who suggest that the investment they make is not that great and they are "still able to hold their own" and are "just as effective as non crafting wizards".
In which case, your investment in the Feats means that until significant time has passed for you to amass the wealth required to build more items you aren't doing the job as good as a dedicated Blasto-Wiz and therefore the party has to carry you. Given that your contribution is now LESS than it should be, the party is well within their rights to pay you only a fractional share of the loot.
It's ok though, because you will make back the money when you craft stuff.
If all we are getting is discounts at your shop, then it's probably better just to be your friend and stop by when we need something and instead take Blasto-Wiz on adventures instead, because he at least pulls his weight and we will be financially in front.
It's not up to the party to subsidise your Playstyle choice of being a crafter.
Being a Crafter means you make your gear for 50% cost, that was the benefit for you from the Feat. You are trading that for effectiveness on the table, which is a burden you are now placing on the party - charging them to carry you is a bit far.
Actually, by the time you take the feat, you should have already amassed some wealth (the whole party will have) and Wizzy will immediately see returns. Then, after the VERY NEXT ADVENTURE, while the party is only halfway to their next item of choice, Wizzy has just enough to craft some more. So there's really no time when the party has to carry you.
I mean, really, how often is it that you level up (the only time you can take a feat) and have NO money with which to buy/craft new items? Even if it's not a mint, whatever items you do manage to craft will certainly see as much use as Blasto's +1 to save DC's over the next 5-6 encounters before you can craft some more.
Meanwhile the Fighter is off training and everyone else has tough jobs to do as well... you seem to think only the Wizard has a job to do. He does his job, whilst the Barb is probably hitting the gym and doing endless sword drills. You seem to want to live in a very selective version of 'realistic'.
Have you read the rules? Crafting requires a LOT of time and effort. It IS an investment on the character's part.
What are you talking about? People can do what they want to in their free time. SO CAN THE WIZARD. It is in NO WAY wrong not to craft for others if you want to do other things with your time. Party politics are for when you are adventuring. If you want a service in your off time it is common courtesy to pay for that service, whether from a PC or a NPC. If the wizard wants to give a discount or give it away free is entirely his decision and not wrong in any way. Heck he can charge full price or more if his character doesn't like the other character. It is a free market.
Here is your problem. That sword is worth 2000 gold. If you have two fighters who want a +1 sword. You found one such sword and a big pile of coins. In your case the fighter who gets the sword for 1000 gold out of the loot pile is robbing the other fighter, who now has to go into town and buy his for 2000 gold. You are giving that first fighter 1000 gold extra loot over the rest of the party by using this system. If there was a +1 sword and 4000 gold loot between the two and you divided it your way one fighter gets a +1 sword and 1500 gold, the other gets 2500 gold. But since he has to buy his sword he ends up with a +1 sword and 500 gold. The only fair way to divide it is to apply the FULL 2000 gold value to that sword, then BOTH end up with a +1 sword and 1000 gold.I would suggest that you have a strange view of the world. It seems set on who is 'robbing' whom and a whole lot of other entitlement mentality problems.
Wow the blatant hypocrisy... it is YOUR side that is enraged at the thought that there might be an imbalance in wealth by level via charging for the creation of magic items. NOW you state that if an imbalance occurs because someone snagged a better lottery draw of items than someone else they should suck it up with a smile?! Do you even read what you write? Your the one with entitlement mental issues. All I did was point out the fairest way to divide treasure. I could care less if you actually use it. It takes a few seconds to jot down the values of all the items people grab. After the adventure is over it is only fair to deduct the full value of any claimed treasure from that persons final share. If he has more claimed stuff than he can afford out of his share of the gold then he can pony up the rest out of pocket or owe it against the haul from the next mission. I fail to see where this can in any way harm "what is best for the group", everyone is still using the items they found as best they can. If no one claimed that sword than sure it gets sold off and the whole group loses out on half its value. It is a wonder that you can't seem to grasp something as simple as the fact that you lose wealth by level the more you visit a NPC broker.
What are you talking about? People can do what they want to in their free time. SO CAN THE WIZARD.
Exactly. Who says he can't?
I'm really lost on why you keep arguing so passionately against things that haven't been said.
Wow the blatant hypocrisy... it is YOUR side that is enraged at the thought that there might be an imbalance in wealth by level via charging for the creation of magic items. NOW you state that if an imbalance occurs because someone snagged a better lottery draw of items than someone else they should suck it up with a smile?! Do you even read what you write? Your the one with entitlement mental issues.
My side who?
I stated what I stated. I haven't brought up WBL once.
I think you need to have a good lie down as you appear to once again be arguing passionately against something I have not once said.
Not only have I not said it, I haven't suugested, inferred, or even hinted at such a thing.
Truly bizarre that you seem to be quoting me, and then arguing some other completely random point not found anywhere in anything I have written.
What are you talking about? People can do what they want to in their free time. SO CAN THE WIZARD.Exactly. Who says he can't?
I'm really lost on why you keep arguing so passionately against things that haven't been said.
Wow the blatant hypocrisy... it is YOUR side that is enraged at the thought that there might be an imbalance in wealth by level via charging for the creation of magic items. NOW you state that if an imbalance occurs because someone snagged a better lottery draw of items than someone else they should suck it up with a smile?! Do you even read what you write? Your the one with entitlement mental issues.My side who?
I stated what I stated. I haven't brought up WBL once.
I think you need to have a good lie down as you appear to once again be arguing passionately against something I have not once said.
Not only have I not said it, I haven't suugested, inferred, or even hinted at such a thing.
Truly bizarre that you seem to be quoting me, and then arguing some other completely random point not found anywhere in anything I have written.
You do realize that when you insult people they get upset don't you? I shouldn't have to explain that.
I quoted you because you stated something in defense of the people who seem to think it's ok not to pay the party wizard for any work he might do for their character. Forgive me if you aren't actually on that side of the argument.
You do realize that when you insult people they get upset don't you? I shouldn't have to explain that.I quoted you because you stated something in defense of the people who seem to think it's ok not to pay the party wizard for any work he might do for their character. Forgive me if you aren't actually on that side of the argument.
Its ironic you take a snarky tome then get upset when snarky comes back, I'm aware of my behaviour, but seems you miss your own... glass houses eh?
I never said its ok not to pay the Wizard for work they do for their character. I have maintained though that the Wizard needs to realise that there is work to be done for the benefit of the party, and that everyone has their role in ensuring the party is well equipped to deal with the dangers that lie in wait.
Now whilst the other people have their jobs to do, such as Rogues and Bards gathering intel, Paladins and Clerics playing the politics, etc, the Wizard might well have his job too - and that might incvolve crafting for the party, and of course that comes AFTER he has his own spells and equipment in order.
What I am against is the Wizard expecting to be PAID for this work above and beyond what the rest of the party is getting, which is an EQUAL share of the treasure.
Now on the odd chance that something comes up (such as a Spell being purchased for the party) then its Party funds that go towards making that happen... the Wizard wont foot the bill alone, and nor should he.
Similarly a valuable item coming into the party might (as a group decision) be kept, as selling it off would be silly at this point (ie lower levels fund +2 Full Plate).
It's not about WBL, it's about retaining wealth in group, making the group as strong as possible, and ensuring each member gets looked after - and not about ensuring the Crafter is always being paid more than everyone else for simply playing his part in the party.
You lot are all missing the point of a game. Have fun. That's all. There are many ways to do that. You're arguing over whether red is a better color than green. Silly argument. Whatever play style suits your group is the right one.
Jeez.
Agreed
I quoted you because you stated something in defense of the people who seem to think it's ok not to pay the party wizard for any work he might do for their character. Forgive me if you aren't actually on that side of the argument.I never said its ok not to pay the Wizard for work they do for their character.
What I am against is the Wizard expecting to be PAID for this work above and beyond what the rest of the party is getting, which is an EQUAL share of the treasure.
It's not about WBL, it's about retaining wealth in group, making the group as strong as possible, and ensuring each member gets looked after - and not about ensuring the Crafter is always being paid more than everyone else for simply playing his part in the party.
The treasure is already divided more or less equally depending on your method. This is OFF DUTY time we are talking about.
You realize what this sounds like...
"Its ok to pay the wizard. What I am against is paying the wizard. Its about making sure everyone can take advantage of the wizard's feat and its unfair to pay him." a paraphrase of what you're typing
That is the message you are sending... very confusing right? So you can pay him if you want to but he is doing wrong if he charges up front? Make up your mind it's either ok to pay him or it isn't.
Let me phrase this a different way to make you understand. The rogue can pick locks and pockets. So by your logic he should be robbing banks or markets or whatever and turning over the proceeds to the group during his off time. It would be selfish of him to not do so. The group won't be there to help, they aren't sneaky. You have to do it for the team.
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Let me phrase this a different way to make you understand. The rogue can pick locks and pockets. So by your logic he should be robbing banks or markets or whatever and turning over the proceeds to the group during his off time. It would be selfish of him to not do so. The group won't be there to help, they aren't sneaky. You have to do it for the team.
Can I play a rogue in your game? Pretty please?
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I'm late to the party, but my take on it is that is the group should ideally function as a team and that one PC demanding an extra share of the loot because they took one feat leaves a bad taste in mouth. The crafter gets full benefit of the feat for themselves (half-price magic items!) and expecting more seems excessive.
I've (briefly) been in groups where clerics charged for heals and rogues "forgot" to mention loot they found, and it was not a good time.
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Let me phrase this a different way to make you understand. The rogue can pick locks and pockets. So by your logic he should be robbing banks or markets or whatever and turning over the proceeds to the group during his off time. It would be selfish of him to not do so. The group won't be there to help, they aren't sneaky. You have to do it for the team.Can I play a rogue in your game? Pretty please?
No, no, give credit where credit is due. This was an example of what Shifty's game must be like. The people in my game like discounted items. They really don't mind if a wizard has extra money as a result. That extra money in the wizard's pocket only ends up helping the group in the long run.
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No, no, give credit where credit is due. This was an example of what Shifty's game must be like. The people in my game like discounted items. They really don't mind if a wizard has extra money as a result. That extra money in the wizard's pocket only ends up helping the group in the long run.Let me phrase this a different way to make you understand. The rogue can pick locks and pockets. So by your logic he should be robbing banks or markets or whatever and turning over the proceeds to the group during his off time. It would be selfish of him to not do so. The group won't be there to help, they aren't sneaky. You have to do it for the team.Can I play a rogue in your game? Pretty please?
So you're saying I can rob banks AND get discount magic items? Fantastic!
...okay, yeah, I agree with you about Shifty's game...sort of. If that system works for him, more power to him. I don't run it that way in my game, but everyone's different.
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If the wizard is getting his own items at 50% then this is true. His enhanced items trade off with his missing combat/skill feat to make him do just as well. But if everyone is getting the items at 50% the DM has to reorder the power level of encounters to make them hard enough for the powered up characters in which case the assumption is that everyone has 50% costed items and the extra feat they didn't waste on item creation thus resulting in a relative loss in power for the wizard who took the feat, does that seem fair?Besides it isn't like the rest of the party has to buy items from the wizard they can always just suck it up and deal with whatever loot drops while they adventure or buy it at full price from every other magic vendor in the world.
I agree with you here and it is the main reason I tell my players to pass on the item creation feats. If I have to rebalance the game to accomodate them why even bother in the first place? I just give them the appropriate amount of treasure and let them place orders at ye olde magik shoppe in between adventures. Honestly I think these feats are more about play style more than anything else and as such I would prefer that they would be free (baked into spellcraft or something like that) or ignored entirely if the group shows no interest in crafting.
If the wizard is getting his own items at 50% then this is true. His enhanced items trade off with his missing combat/skill feat to make him do just as well. But if everyone is getting the items at 50% the DM has to reorder the power level of encounters to make them hard enough for the powered up characters in which case the assumption is that everyone has 50% costed items and the extra feat they didn't waste on item creation thus resulting in a relative loss in power for the wizard who took the feat, does that seem fair?Besides it isn't like the rest of the party has to buy items from the wizard they can always just suck it up and deal with whatever loot drops while they adventure or buy it at full price from every other magic vendor in the world.
Here's the thing - use of an item creation feat doesn't really mean the character gets things at half price... unless the vast bulk of the treasure PCs gain is in cash equivalent items. If they're gaining more value in equipment that they sell, and they create items off that sale price, the issue of half price new equipment is factored away. The DM doesn't need to make any adjustments at all, even if the wizard (cleric or other caster) is investing multiple feat slots into item creation and makes everybody's stuff.
That's how the system is designed to balance out and it works pretty well.
If the wizard is getting his own items at 50% then this is true. His enhanced items trade off with his missing combat/skill feat to make him do just as well. But if everyone is getting the items at 50% the DM has to reorder the power level of encounters to make them hard enough for the powered up characters in which case the assumption is that everyone has 50% costed items and the extra feat they didn't waste on item creation thus resulting in a relative loss in power for the wizard who took the feat, does that seem fair?Besides it isn't like the rest of the party has to buy items from the wizard they can always just suck it up and deal with whatever loot drops while they adventure or buy it at full price from every other magic vendor in the world.
Here's the thing - use of an item creation feat doesn't really mean the character gets things at half price... unless the vast bulk of the treasure PCs gain is in cash equivalent items. If they're gaining more value in equipment that they sell, and they create items off that sale price, the issue of half price new equipment is factored away. The DM doesn't need to make any adjustments at all, even if the wizard (cleric or other caster) is investing multiple feat slots into item creation and makes everybody's stuff.
That's how the system is designed to balance out and it works pretty well.
True, but you get better gear when the DM gives you crappy loot by selling the crappy stuff and making better ones..
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Doubt it all you want: it's manifestly true. Shifty is trying to argue that crafters don't have to give anything up because players never get any spotlight during downtime because there is no downtime. Go back and read his posts.
He's convinced that the way he plays is the only way to play and is seemingly unable to accept that any other way to play is possible or acceptable.
i'd rather let him explain his posts. But you're also insisting that his game is wrong
My personal opinion is taht players should feel free to play a nuker/crafter/whatever and everyone can have brohugs and high-5's all round. I don't expect the players to be charging more than base for carrying out their party function though. They have a job to do, and they are getting paid to do it - they shouldn't be trying to make a buck for doing the same work as everyone else.
From the impression I got from his posts, was that all campaign have or should have no downtime.
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Doubt it all you want: it's manifestly true. Shifty is trying to argue that crafters don't have to give anything up because players never get any spotlight during downtime because there is no downtime. Go back and read his posts.
He's convinced that the way he plays is the only way to play and is seemingly unable to accept that any other way to play is possible or acceptable.
Yeesh, relax. Some people prefer to handwave downtime and others like to play it out. No need to jump on him for expressing an opinion.