So how should mounts work in game? I never liked how they just appeared and disappeared in WoW. It would be neat if they stayed around when dismounted like in Skyrim but then would there be a problem of mounts left littered about all over the place? Should people be able to steal your mount? Maybe by putting them in a stable you could eliminate the risk of theft. Should you automatically dismount in cities, indoors, in dungeons, etc? What mounts should even be available in the first place? Just horses or weird stuff too? What about flying mounts? Can I have a dragon?! I'll name him Pete!!!
Goblin Squad Member
|
I hope nothing is "despawnable". I totally agree with being able to "steal" mounts, and this should be one of the solutions to avoid leaving your mounts sitting around unguarded. Other solutions require having to feed your animals...if they are not tied up and you do not feed them, they run away, if they are tied up then they die due to starvation.
You will have druids who walk around feeding everyone's pets. And not feeding Pete will probably not be appreciated by the horse owners tied up out front.
but not every character would have such a device
Why?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having your horse stolen by hobgoblins or eaten by owlbears while you were busy down in the dungeon, has been a staple of the game since Mr. Gygax (hypothetically) tortured Mr. Arneson with his first PC grinder dungeoncrawl.
I see no reason to leave it out of the online version.
Here's one: because it's an archetypical Gygaxian obnoxious thing to do. It's realistic but it isn't any fun at all.Having your horse stolen by hobgoblins or eaten by owlbears while you were busy down in the dungeon, has been a staple of the game since Mr. Gygax (hypothetically) tortured Mr. Arneson with his first PC grinder dungeoncrawl.
I see no reason to leave it out of the online version.
I agree. I always hated it. But it's part of the game for a good reason: verisimilitude.
Leave it in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Here's one: because it's an archetypical Gygaxian obnoxious thing to do. It's realistic but it isn't any fun at all.Having your horse stolen by hobgoblins or eaten by owlbears while you were busy down in the dungeon, has been a staple of the game since Mr. Gygax (hypothetically) tortured Mr. Arneson with his first PC grinder dungeoncrawl.
I see no reason to leave it out of the online version.
I agree. I always hated it. But it's part of the game for a good reason: verisimilitude.
Leave it in.
This is actually a really good argument for killing it with fire.
If it sucks and no one likes it and it only exists to uphold some inviolate concept of versimilitude (that is really sort of a joke anyway because this is a video game we're talking about), it shouldn't be in the game.
Because not everybody would be willing to make that micro transaction (I'm assuming there will be a fair portion of players who are non-subscribers who only choose the transactions they really need.)
Why does it have to be a microtransaction and not baked into the game?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Everything that is put into the game which is not a static object requires the server and clients to track it. The amount of such traffic is an N^2 problem - the amount is the exponent of the number of such objects.
Thus, no MMO ever leaves anything in the gamespace that is not critical to the functioning of the game. Objects which are no longer necessary for play are removed as quickly as possible to reduce the strain on the system.
That's why you'll not see hundreds of thousands of horses standing around waiting for riders.
This is actually a really good argument for killing it with fire.
If it sucks and no one likes it and it only exists to uphold some inviolate concept of versimilitude (that is really sort of a joke anyway because this is a video game we're talking about), it shouldn't be in the game.
Exactly. You're just not going to get anywhere near the level of verisimilitude in a video game that you will from your imagination at the table, for obvious reasons.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
That's why you'll not see hundreds of thousands of horses standing around waiting for riders.
Fallen Earth, a post-apocalyptic MMO, does have actual horses that stand around waiting for riders (until you log off, if I remember right). They cannot be stolen, though.
Fallen Earth might be a game worth studying for a bit, for the Pathfinder project. It has a single server/world (at least, as the player sees it -- no idea how many (or how little) hardware is under it), similar to EVE. No classes, 6 (I think?) factions, somewhat complex crafting, actual horses and other vehicles (which usually are in the world somewhere when you're logged in). It's a hybrid theme park / sandbox game (in some ways similar to what's proposed here). No permanent player-built structures, but you can make camps in the wilderness (last about 3 hours).
And a lot of lovely small things that make games like this enjoyable: a lot of emotes (many sensible, and well animated -- another game that is pretty good in that aspect is Age of Conan), some pieces of clothing/armor have logical alternate appearances (i.e. you can wear your jacket open or closed), same with variations in hairstyle, wear it bound back or let it fall free. Without visiting a barber :)
I enjoyed myself as it was a change of pace from WoW, but the (always brownish and dusty) post-apocalyptic setting isn't quite my cup of tea. I do enjoy the variety of landscapes WoW (for example) has to offer.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Saga of Ryzom is another older sandbox MMO that does not despawn mounts (expect when they are stabled in the major cities). It also requires that you feed your mounts. The mounts can not be stolen, but they can be killed. Mounts are fairly expensive and you learn quick not to leave them sitting about...either mobs kill them or sometimes if they are in peoples way, they are killed other ways.
In such a system, the horses/mounts would not be left unguarded. Doing so makes whatever happens your own fault. I can also build an inn with a stable that keeps mounts safe...and that I can charge for. I see that as an opportunity for play and RP.
I am all for magic icons which become mounts as in Darkfall, but I hope these would be rare and/or expensive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How realistic should we make the feeding? I think we could maintain a strong player base if you had to feed horses in real-time, requiring people to log in at least a couple times a day lest their mounts starve. It would also encourage roleplaying.
Toilet paper is really going to cut into my bag space.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Well, I would imagine feeding your mount is part of stabling. So, if it is in a stable, you do not need to worry about anything but paying the stable. Or, if you have your own estate, the serf NPCs (or whatever) do this work as part of their duties.
Not feeding your pet would starve it. Eventually it would try to escape to eat and/or eventually die. Some mounts, like horses, have no problem feeding themselves if released...you just have to figure out how to get it back.
Well, no sense in making it unnecessarily complicated. We could streamline it a little and maintain verisimilitude by setting up a series of Horse Dungeons.
Your horse has escaped, and trapped itself in one of these instances! Which one? Well, if you knew where your horse was, there'd be no point in looking, would there?
And that neatly solves the problem of what loot you'd find in a Horse Dungeon. Obviously, magical horseshoes and brushes. Of course, people might intentionally mistreat their horses to send them into a Horse Dungeon, which would destroy immersion. Perhaps they could be a group thing, so people would be encouraged to help other people find and care for their horses in exchange for these magic horse items.
This sounds great. A casual player could just log into Pathfinder Online for the ponies, and have as much fun as someone adventuring and slaying dragons.
And thus was born the My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic MMO.
Wait wait wait.
How to bridles figure into this?
Oh man, I can't believe we missed that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Okay, I laughed...thank you for keeping your disagreement with me amusing and friendly. If the game were less than perfect because it had pocketable mounts, it would not be a gamebreaker for me.
But I actually agree about the horseshoes...they are not necessary fro a horse, bu they do provide a bonus. And...I am sure many blacksmiths made their livings with crafting horseshoes over swords and armor.
I am in favor of a horseshoe bonus.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Wait wait wait.
How to bridles figure into this?
Oh man, I can't believe we missed that.
Tack, saddles, veterinary treatment, breeding... there's a whole cornucopia of potential horse-related fun! Shoes and brushes are just the beginning. People who play games where the only character choice is "dragon slaying hero"... pff, that's just bo-ring.
...okay, I think we've laid it on thick enough. tl;dr: SWG and Horizons kind of sucked, and A Tale in the Desert was mostly interesting only as an experiment.
I am all for tack and saddles being crafted by leatherworkers and providing a slight bonus to riding.
The list of games you said sucked may highlight a fundamental difference between us. In MMOs, I am an explorer at heart, and once the world it explored, my end-game is harvesting and crafting. Those games you listed, had some of the most potential in crafting systems. In every game I play, I end up part of a guild that focuses primarily on crafting.
Perhaps one mount that you can travel with and then pocket, and a stable in town for your collection, if they go that route.
Here's one: because it's an archetypical Gygaxian obnoxious thing to do. It's realistic but it isn't any fun at all.
I agree. I always hated it. But it's part of the game for a good reason: verisimilitude.
Leave it in.
The only way Verisimilitude would come CLOSE to working... is if your the ONLY ones around... If every lost and ancient landmark has 30 people camped around it stealing each others horses... it would be a joke.
As much as I LIKE the idea of stealing horses... I don't see any way that it could work without being just an annoyance.
as for having them eaten while your in the dungeon.... REALLY?!?! Who puts an endcap on the nights adventure like THAT?? That's crazy talk ;)
How realistic should we make the feeding? I think we could maintain a strong player base if you had to feed horses in real-time, requiring people to log in at least a couple times a day lest their mounts starve. It would also encourage roleplaying.
Facebook has a few games where you have to feed the monsters every day or they die...
it SUCKS.
I got bored and stopped playing... and that game was FREE. I can tell you right now, I would never spend money to play a game that actively says that IT is more important that your REAL life. If I have a wedding or a birthday party to go to... If I want to go to an amusement park... or even on vacation.... My horse BETTER be waiting for me when I come home! :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I support this thread and demand a customized pony with a lavender scented mane and balls of pure f+%$ing steel.
Well, people should also need to clean their horse's hooves and get horseshoes made. That should encourage a strong player-based grooming and blacksmithing community. Nothing says immersion and verisimilitude like rigorous brushing and hammering and shoeing minigames, complete with a risk to get kicked if you haven't been treating your horse well!
Hmmm...you really wouldn't like Bella Sara then. It primarily revolves around grooming, feeding, and maintaining a virtual horse. And you would be missing out on the best game ever!*
*okay, not really, but, oddly enough, horse grooming has been the basis for a game. A substantially different game, but apparently some people either like that sort of thing or like ponies enough to tolerate that sort of thing.
I support this thread and demand a customized pony with a lavender scented mane and balls of pure f%$+ing steel.
Damn straight.
So what about the idea of non-horse/pony mounts? Should there be weird mounts of every imaginable type like in WoW or should there only be relatively normal kinds?
Also I'm surprised nobody has said anything about flying mounts. Should there be any?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So what about the idea of non-horse/pony mounts? Should there be weird mounts of every imaginable type like in WoW or should there only be relatively normal kinds?
Cool and varied mounts are definitely a plus.
Also I'm surprised nobody has said anything about flying mounts. Should there be any?
I can't see a good argument against it (at least, eventually). They're a solid reward to earn, they are a major convenience, and they have an established presence and history in D&D/Pathfinder (for the versimilitude crowd).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So what about the idea of non-horse/pony mounts? Should there be weird mounts of every imaginable type like in WoW or should there only be relatively normal kinds?Cool and varied mounts are definitely a plus.
Also I'm surprised nobody has said anything about flying mounts. Should there be any?I can't see a good argument against it (at least, eventually). They're a solid reward to earn, they are a major convenience, and they have an established presence and history in D&D/Pathfinder (for the versimilitude crowd).
Well, I am sure I do not speak for the whole "verisimilitude crowd", but most peasants would either run or grab their pitchforks if you landed in the street on a dragon. I am not against the idea of alternate mounts, but I hope they are done in a way which makes them rare. For instance, want a griffon mount? First raise your Go steal an egg and play "raise a monster" for 5 months. But, don't expect herbivore mounts to play nice with huge carnivores...and vice versa, good things about horses is they usually don't eat the other mounts.
On the other hand, my argument here goes against my previous points that anything good for the economy is good for "society" because it gives some player a niche expertise. So, why would I want to limit someones ability to raise griffons as mounts and sell them? Although I would say we are talking max Animal Handling and Animal Affinity feat...at minimum to even think of trying to raise and train large magical beasts. And since you are trying to ride a wild animal, no matter how it is raised, I would say riding one requires high Animal Handling, Fly, and Ride skills (of course by saying this, SB, I mean what ever their equivalent is in game since I know they are not necessarily using PF game rules).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Well, I am sure I do not speak for the whole "verisimilitude crowd", but most peasants would either run or grab their pitchforks if you landed in the street on a dragon.
I wasn't really considering dragons - you'll forgive me, but having a dragon mount seems like it might be a bit too "epic" for adventures in the River Kingdoms. I was thinking more along the lines of griffons, hippogriffs, pegasi, conjured mounts, flying carpets, a flight spell, etc.
Also, I just thought of something else to consider - if you allow spellcasters access to a flight spell at a certain point, you probably want to ensure that everyone gains access to some way of flying travel at roughly the same point in their potential progression.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Well, I am sure I do not speak for the whole "verisimilitude crowd", but most peasants would either run or grab their pitchforks if you landed in the street on a dragon.I wasn't really considering dragons - you'll forgive me, but having a dragon mount seems like it might be a bit too "epic" for adventures in the River Kingdoms. I was thinking more along the lines of griffons, hippogriffs, pegasi, conjured mounts, flying carpets, a flight spell, etc.
And those are not uber epic...why? People are always going to want to one-up their buddies...making this a slippery slope. Every month they will have to introduce a more "epic" mount to make more money off their micro-transactions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
An excess of flying mounts could cause problems with the landscape and would complicate warfare (not that 3 dimensional aerial combat wouldn't be awesome, but everything in moderation right?)
Oh, I don't know about mounted combat. A lot of MMOs eschew that in favor of forcing you to dismount in order to fight.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
An excess of flying mounts could cause problems with the landscape and would complicate warfare (not that 3 dimensional aerial combat wouldn't be awesome, but everything in moderation right?)Oh, I don't know about mounted combat. A lot of MMOs eschew that in favor of forcing you to dismount in order to fight.
Who cares what other MMOs do? I would sacrifice a lot of what I want in order to have mounted combat. Especially if there is going to be mass combat, you cannot have a fantasy setting and warfare without cavalry.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
And those are not uber epic...why?
On my totally subjective and arbitrary scale of epic, a griffon mount is lower than a dragon mount. I have support in the Pathfinder universe, too. IIRC, the Korvosan watch fields units of griffon-mounted guards.
People are always going to want to one-up their buddies...
Absolutely.
making this a slippery slope.
Well, as slippery as the design team chooses to make it. They control the flow of content.
Every month they will have to introduce a more "epic" mount to make more money off their micro-transactions.
Not necessarily.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can't see a good argument against it (at least, eventually). They're a solid reward to earn, they are a major convenience, and they have an established presence and history in D&D/Pathfinder (for the versimilitude crowd).
You can do better than that hole poker.
Flying mounts vastly depopulate the game world by putting everybody neatly in the sky as there is no reason not to fly.
They are an active anti PvP switch.
Access to flying mounts (Wow's gryphon system) was arguably the greatest and most well thought out and visually impressive system I've come across. Use this.
A permutation of WoWs boat and zeppelin modes of transport would also be an excellent edition as a static mode of transport.
Allowing individuals to obtain a ridiculous mix of mountable dragons, rockets, unicorns and broomsticks to which make player hubs look like the worst free to play game you have ever seen, is not advised.
Every month they will have to introduce a more "epic" mount to make more money off their micro-transactions.
Correct.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Who cares what other MMOs do?
Well, I mean, no one, except that MMOs have eschewed mounted combat typically because implementing it in a meaningful way is tough as balls.
WoW, for instance, got around this by introducing "mounted combat," which is actually just an extension of the vehicle system designed to look in all other respects like you're on a mount. You don't have access to your own abilities while on the mount, because figuring out a way to make each of those abilities work well is just way too much work.
If PFO can get meaningful mounted combat down, rad. It sounds like a cool feature. It's not up near the top of my own list, though.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You can do better than that hole poker.
We'll see.
Flying mounts vastly depopulate the game world by putting everybody neatly in the sky as there is no reason not to fly.
Well, not everybody, obviously. I'm sure everyone will eventually be able to get flying mounts, but not everyone will have them. They'd need to be earned, and those who haven't earned them won't be using them.
Also, WoW has flying mounts. A lot of people are still on the ground in major hubs.
They are an active anti PvP switch.
And, like other MMOs with flying mounts, you can simply design it so that you can't mount up while engaged in combat. And there are a ton of abilities that can "strip" you of your mount if you're already mounted.
Access to flying mounts (Wow's gryphon system) was arguably the greatest and most well thought out and visually impressive system I've come across. Use this.
I agree. It's pretty great.
Allowing individuals to obtain a ridiculous mix of mountable dragons, rockets, unicorns and broomsticks to which make player hubs look like the worst free to play game you have ever seen, is not advised.
Wait, now I'm confused. You said you liked WoW's system but now you're saying don't use it?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Also, WoW has flying mounts. A lot of people are still on the ground in major hubs.
Agreed. My point is, the only place they're on the ground is in player hubs.
And, like other MMOs with flying mounts, you can simply design it so that you can't mount up while engaged in combat. And there are a ton of abilities that can "strip" you of your mount if you're already mounted.
Agreed. I was talking more about the fact that you see someone coming; you mount up and climb to 15,000 feet. gg.
Wait, now I'm confused. You said you liked WoW's system but now you're saying don't use it?
I was referring to the NPC controlled Gryphon and Bat handlers. These static forms of travel (in Vanilla, not Cataclysm in which they greatly expanded flight points excessively) offered players solutions to a lot of travel problems whilst causing none. It was still a relative time sink to cross large regions and cost gold. Flight paths were so well selected that players still had to conduct a reasonable amount of overland travel and the world was booming with activity. Boats were obviously great at moving people across largely distant continents.
My disagreement lies in offering players their own controllable flying mounts, for the reason I mentioned previously.