Goblin Squad Member
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I hope there are options to optimize the GUI for touchscreen. There are probably not many now who have gaming computers with touch screens, but I am guessing there will be soon. At minimum, the tablets that are all the rave now will continue increasing in power.
While there will always be those who prefer mouse and keyboard, might as well build and optimize a GUI for touchscreen or even multi-touch interactions as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just wanted to point out that touchscreens are not just for iPad anymore. It is the way consoles are moving...and consoles and PCs are moving closer together in form and function.
Just suggesting it might be a good idea to take this into consideration before moving past a point where implementing it is more difficult or impossible (which I am sure you are no where near...just saying).
Maybe we, the community, could have a discussion about what such a design would mean or require...for your later consideration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've done a bit of work developing applications for handheld touchscreens. To some degree, it's fairly trivial to convert an app to use touch to replace a mouse cursor.
On the other hand, the technology is still very young and rapidly evolving, and I think trying to "future-proof" the UI for multi-touch, etc. would be extremely difficult. In my experience, I think it would be easier to completely redesign the UI in the future to conform to a multi-touch standard that exists at that time, than it would be to design the UI now in such a way that it could be easily converted to that future standard before it exists.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just wanted to point out that touchscreens are not just for iPad anymore. It is the way consoles are moving...and consoles and PCs are moving closer together in form and function.
Just suggesting it might be a good idea to take this into consideration before moving past a point where implementing it is more difficult or impossible (which I am sure you are no where near...just saying).
Maybe we, the community, could have a discussion about what such a design would mean or require...for your later consideration.
Call me a skeptic, but in all all honsety I still see touch screens as more likely to be a fad rather than the future of gaming. It isn't possible to be precise on a touch screen, and that isn't a hardware limitation, it is a finger limitation, as a result touchpads will never be an ideal choice for anyone interested in competitive gaming against others. No different then the wii-mote etc... great for fun with friends and family, but if you are against opponents who are not required to use it... it all falls appart and you will find yourself dying quite a bit.
This is also the reason why microsoft didn't link XBox live to PC versions of games. They learned that the PC players of the games were wiping the floor with console players, not because of better skill, but more precise controls.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I have to agree with Onishi.
Either the game would be "dumbed down" to accommodate the touch screen users like console ported PC games or the touch screen folks would be at a constant disadvantage until they no longer used the option. Every time an MMO tries to move away from the keyboard/ mouse while at the same time supporting their use, it has always ended poorly. In the end it seems that a touch screen like option is only useful for out-of-game apps like character stats/ armory, Auction Hall or chat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be easier to completely redesign the UI in the future to conform to a multi-touch standard that exists at that time, than it would be to design the UI now in such a way that it could be easily converted to that future standard before it exists.
I will yield to your expertise then, just tossing out ideas (Just read another IEEE article about how UIs are moving to touchscreen/gesture). I know I have a 2 yr old and she interacts daily with our computers via touchscreen/gesture, much more so than via keyboard or mouse. Watching her I can only imagine how anachronistic her generation will view them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will yield to your expertise then, just tossing out ideas (Just read another IEEE article about how UIs are moving to touchscreen/gesture). I know I have a 2 yr old and she interacts daily with our computers via touchscreen/gesture, much more so than via keyboard or mouse. Watching her I can only imagine how anachronistic her generation will view them.
Touchscreen has always been the super easy to learn, making it an ideal choice for children, and computer phobic adults, as well as for any tasks that one wants to put little thought into. Hence their prevalence in toys, cash registers, GPS etc... However I could never imagine myself attempting to use one as a primary control in any games more complex than angry birds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could never imagine myself attempting to use one as a primary control in any games more complex than angry birds.
Well, I am not convinced that Angry Birds is the pinnacle of possibilities in touchscreen UI (especially when combined with gesture and speech). Remember, most tablets now recognize at 10 points of contact and parts of the screen can be dedicated to controls...or other yet unexplored options might exist.
Imagine being able to drag and drop actions to create sequences and/or unique combinations in real-time. Shooting an arrow could constitute touching the "bow button" and touching your target for an amount of time based on your draw on the bow. No reticles needed, yet also no need for auto targeting. Balancing rate of fire with the time it takes to draw the bow...all based on the perceived distance to target becomes an art. Sounds much more complex yet simple and satisfying to me than TAB, 1 (tab to auto target and 1 being your arrow shot).
The problem with touchscreens at the moment is that there will have to be extremely substantial developments in both battery technology and heat dissipation technology before the concept of a 3d-accelerated tablet is a reality. The a modern 3d accelerated video card requires anywhere between 13-23 amps off a 12v rail, and being conservative and shaving off a full 20 degrees Celsius because temperatures vary so much, runs at about 66 degrees Celsius. You are not going to get that kind of power off a 1/8 inch think lithium ion battery, or cooling equipment required to dissipate that kind of heat, into an ipad style form-factor in the next 10-15 years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I bet it is more along the lines of 3-6 years...and since this game comes out in 2...
But, that is a moot point, I guess I am confused why everyone keeps assuming this suggestion was looking for tablet support. Windows 8 has just been released with much improved functionality and it is not designed for tablets.
Additionally, there is no longer any reason why a computer's I/O has to be housed with the heat generating processor(s). In fact, there's many reasons not to.
I bet it is more along the lines of 3-6 years...and since this game comes out in 2...
Into an iPad form factor? There's not even room in there for a significant heat sink, let alone fans.
But, that is a moot point, I guess I am confused why everyone keeps assuming this suggestion was looking for tablet support. Windows 8 has just been released with much improved functionality and it is not designed for tablets.
Not designed for tablets? Please. Nearly every device pictured at the Windows 8 site is a tablet, and most of the ones they aren't are hybrid tablet-laptops. Pictures of conventional PCs are outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1.
But really, probably the assumption is because at the moment still, Windows 8 is a niche product that is really only possessed by a handful of people who have purchased computers very recently. Combined with the Windows Vista debacle, the mass market is extremely reluctant to upgrade off of the vastly improved, stable, and already-64bit platform of Windows 7. Everything presented as a new feature of Windows 8 has next to no significant benefit to a conventional desktop PC.
Also, being a tablet owner, I fully recognize how wonderful they are for email, simple web browsing, and idle "I've got 10-15 minutes to kill so I'll play some angry birds" games, I can't imagine any scenario in which I'd want to move away from a far more comfortable full-sized keyboard and mouse to try to play a game on smaller, touchscreen interface if said keyboard and mouse were readily available.
Additionally, there is no longer any reason why a computer's I/O has to be housed with the heat generating processor(s). In fact, there's many reasons not to.
Not quite sure what you mean by this.
i don't really see any reason not to make a UI that's compatible for touchscreens, but trying to "optimize" for it scares me. D3's interface and controls were simplified down to being awful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i don't really see any reason not to make a UI that's compatible for touchscreens, but trying to "optimize" for it scares me. D3's interface and controls were simplified down to being awful.
This is a very valid point...until you said this I did not think of the fact that connotatively, "optimize" for X can often mean at the detriment of Y. I did not mean that. I simply meant make it compatible with, thank you for that clarification.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, that is what I was suggesting....which is why it was worth suggesting. I agree, I think I could probably code a clear touchpad to fit over a screen...and be a simple single touch mouse replacement.
But, Robb Smith and Nihimon have a point, although I had not intended it, it would probably only be possible at the detriment of a more traditional UI. I guess it will have to wait for a next^2 generation game. Suggestion withdrawn.
*jots down notes for game design ideas*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could never imagine myself attempting to use one as a primary control in any games more complex than angry birds.Well, I am not convinced that Angry Birds is the pinnacle of possibilities in touchscreen UI (especially when combined with gesture and speech). Remember, most tablets now recognize at 10 points of contact and parts of the screen can be dedicated to controls...or other yet unexplored options might exist.
Sure you can touch 10 points, but you have to factor in 2 things.
1. you have no exact spot for any of those 10 points, you have a contact point of a bit over 1 centimeter of variability.
2. You cannot see any of those contact points once your finger is on them. You have your finger in the way blocking out a huge portion of the screen. and 10 points.... well you've got 2 hands expanded out covering 3/4ths of the screen now...
That could be worked around with say a wii U style seperate touch screen from main screen, but then you've got an added disadvantage over a keyboard. No tactile placement. IE you've still go to look up and down between the 2 screens adding another layer of disadvantage over a keyboard.
Yes there is quite a bit of cool stuff that could be done on a tablet etc... However I do not believe touch screen will ever be a first choice for anything with any vague semblence of percision requirements, meaning I doubt they will be addopted to 100% for gamers, and if touchscreen is not required, than the old fashioned M&K will be more precise and faster than a touchpad could dream of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When the generation of gamers that grew up with touchscreens comes into ascendency, then games will use touchscreens properly.
I think we will see more optimization and detailed refinement of it's usage at this time. Proper usage will always be debatable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When the generation of gamers that grew up with touchscreens comes into ascendency, then games will use touchscreens properly.
Exactly my point. My children are that generation and since they are nearing 3, the game will be out in 2, they will be 5 when this game is released. Perhaps not old enough to game yet (although I was D&Ding shortly after) but consider on top of that the lifespan of say WoW...since PfO intends to be the first of its kind on the scene (and with its crowdforging focus), it has the potential to gather a loyal base. WoW is now 8 years old and still going strong. If PfO lasts that long GW might very well have to learn to deal with them and their desires.
I admitted I made my proposal incorrectly, I was not thinking PfO should aim at being touchscreen optimized at release to the deficit of a more traditional UI. Rather what I was suggesting was that GW consider what such an interface would need (such as the equivalent of 10 simultaneous mouse inputs) and build their code to allow for it...at some later stage. Just in case. Anyways, it was just a suggestion.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The modified suggestion (touchscreen compatible/aware) is much better than "touchscreen optimized". Down the road, there might even be time and money to build an upgrade to allow multi-touch control to be optimized.
Out of curiosity, at what age do you think your children will be allowed to play online multiplayer games withou over-the-shoulder supervision?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The modified suggestion (touchscreen compatible/aware) is much better than "touchscreen optimized". Down the road, there might even be time and money to build an upgrade to allow multi-touch control to be optimized.
Well, for the record, optimize simply means "Make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource)." ~ Google. no where is it mentioned "at the detriment of everything else". I still think I used optimize correctly, but point taken.
Out of curiosity, at what age do you think your children will be allowed to play online multiplayer games withou over-the-shoulder supervision?
Depends on the child and the game (community). Although generally, due to simplicity of MMOs, I tend to see less "adult situations" in them than in regular prime time television, or even worse, the news...or even worse yet, kid's cartoons. But, that irrelevant point aside, I tend to try to surround myself (even in MMOs) with people who I feel are positive and constructive (and when possible, I strive to be that to those I am around). I would have no fear letting my children play MMOs at any age with any of the sub-communities I have been or are part of in MMOs, with or without my direct supervision. Out of curiosity, at what age do you think children should be allowed to play online multiplayer games withou over-the-shoulder supervision? And what do you think would happen if they played earlier?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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With finite development resources, it is a zero-sum system: Any time spent improving the UI for touchscreens is time not spent on something else. We can argue about when improving the UI for touchscreens is the best use of the finite time=money available, but I'm going to point to market penetration of touchscreen controls in PC gaming as my primary evidence. When touchscreens are or will shortly become as common as gamepads currently are on gaming PCs, then spending resources to provide specific support will be worthwhile.
I wouldn't put an age limit, but a maturity limit. I'd supervise about as closely as I would supervise 'hanging out' or other unstructured activities with peers. Then again, I would do the same with passive media consumption as well. The go/no-go decision would be whether I believed that the cognitive distinction between violence between people and violence between characters had developed. In other words, until the concept (if not the words) that the ethics of characters MAY be different from the ethics of people. That might be expressed as simply as "Because [fictional character] isn't real."
That would also be the point where I brought up the civil rights cases of the last half century, and discussed that those are real, and whether that kind of behavior should be tolerated, and techniques for overcoming conformity pressure and the like.
I'd be concerned if those discussions hadn't taken place by the early teens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With finite development resources, it is a zero-sum system: Any time spent improving the UI for touchscreens is time not spent on something else. We can argue about when improving the UI for touchscreens is the best use of the finite time=money available, but I'm going to point to market penetration of touchscreen controls in PC gaming as my primary evidence. When touchscreens are or will shortly become as common as gamepads currently are on gaming PCs, then spending resources to provide specific support will be worthwhile.
Hence, why I was suggesting they spend a little bit of time considering the benefits of optimization for touchscreen interfaces at the foundation of the system, so it always remains an option. Later, as the tech matures, they can implement it if they so decide. If they do not optimize it at this point, it will never be an option because the cost of redesigning the system to allow it would be prohibitive and as you suggest...at the cost of other things.
But, as usual I am not sure if you are expressing an opinion (I do not trust my ability to discern what might be subtle connotations on your part), or just lecturing me on basic economics.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I was expressing my conclusion, along with the specific information that I used to reach that conclusion, and the specific information/events which would cause me to reach a different conclusion.
I first thought 'optimize for touchscreen' as 'make the interface such that a touchscreen with is the optimal input device'. I now see that you meant 'make the interface such that the unique features of a touchscreen need not be wasted'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was expressing my conclusion, along with the specific information that I used to reach that conclusion, and the specific information/events which would cause me to reach a different conclusion.
I first thought 'optimize for touchscreen' as 'make the interface such that a touchscreen with is the optimal input device'. I now see that you meant 'make the interface such that the unique features of a touchscreen need not be wasted'.
Sorry for the necromancy, just wanted to point out that my wife and I are currently "planning" our next gaming builds...and they will probably include touchscreens.
I really like how Camelot Unchained is handling the GUI.
What they're doing is designing their own web browser WITHIN the game (not the other way around). And what this will allow players to do, is to design their own unique GUI's using HTML and JavaScript (as well as graphic design obviously).
This is a great solution because HTML and JavaScript are two of the most known coding languages. HTML is laughably simple, and JS is reasonably simple for a scripting language. I'd like to see this implemented at some point.
Even if you don't know HTML/JS, there will be SO many free and premium Ui's you could dl/buy from other players, it would be ridiculous. Options galore.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Sorry for the necromancy, just wanted to point out that my wife and I are currently "planning" our next gaming builds...and they will probably include touchscreens.I was expressing my conclusion, along with the specific information that I used to reach that conclusion, and the specific information/events which would cause me to reach a different conclusion.
I first thought 'optimize for touchscreen' as 'make the interface such that a touchscreen with is the optimal input device'. I now see that you meant 'make the interface such that the unique features of a touchscreen need not be wasted'.
Oddly enough, I'm adapting my current build to incorporate my tablet as an additional I/O display. It's poorly integrated, and for the most part it means having a web browser open to an appropriate page that I can use without alt-tabbing from the main screen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...it means having a web browser open to an appropriate page that I can use without alt-tabbing from the main screen.
That's interesting, I came up with the same solution. I found a small stand on Amazon that holds my pad at a 45-degree angle, and I can easily look up references while playing, especially in alt-tab-unfriendly games such as my quite-modded Skyrim.