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Bear with me a bit as I'm a complete noob to MMO-RPGs; I've read over the FAQ and one of my big concerns also seems to be one of the areas that GoblinWorks & Paizo have put considerable development into and I figure you'll have the answer, despite the project being so new.
Regarding the economy of the Pathfinder Online world:
One of the great parts of the game Monopoly is that there is a finite amount of money and a limited number of Houses and Hotels. So, even if you can afford to put Hotels on your Boardwalk and Park Place, if there aren't any left to buy, you can't and you'll die poor, miserable and lonely from a venereal disease in real life.
Is this so in Pathfinder Online?
Let me spell out what I mean: If my PC enters an area in The River Kingdoms like one from "Stolen Lands" and builds a keep and a small village, gathers himself an army, and developes a manufacturing industry -- are those resources -- the soldiers, blacksmiths, wenches, lumber, that particular hill, lake & woodland, all used up? Or Is there an infinite number of NPCs and hills & rivers?
Ultimately, how does the gentleman who plays four hours per month not become overwhelmed by the gentleman who plays eighty hours per week?
Thanks.
Chief Technical Officer
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Let me spell out what I mean: If my PC enters an area in The River Kingdoms like one from "Stolen Lands" and builds a keep and a small village, gathers himself an army, and developes a manufacturing industry -- are those resources -- the soldiers, blacksmiths, wenches, lumber, that particular hill, lake & woodland, all used up? Or Is there an infinite number of NPCs and hills & rivers?
The economic system will have a number of ways that value is added to the economy, as well as a number of ways that it gets removed from the economy. In generally, though, value will be added faster than it is removed, with the result being economic growth.
Ultimately, how does the gentleman who plays four hours per month not become overwhelmed by the gentleman who plays eighty hours per week?
This probably isn't obvious, but the answer to that is actually solved less through the economic system and more through the character advancement system. But I don't have more details to share on that yet.
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I have to hope for the best, but economics in MMOs is extraordinarily tricky. The most basic problem is this: infinite world leads to infinite supply, leading to infinite inflation; finite world with increasing player base leads to infinite demand ... leading to infinite inflation. And if the economy collapses, you lose players because the chaos within the game-world makes the game considerably less fun for most.
The grand-parent of MMOs, Ultima Online, had a great deal of code for ecosystems and economics that went right out the window fast because of pressure from players.
Personally? I would all free and automatic access to most simple equipment -- swords, armor, everything -- with the regular addition of gold/resources to your domain. Then, build the economy around the magical trinkets that everyone will want and the infrastructural investments that improve your domain. That way, players can at least gear-up for basic gameplay, but resources and gold and the like can be hoarded to acquire loot.
But, again, I have to hope. And I would like to imagine that someone has already put more thought into this than I.
I'd like to voice my support for as free an economic system as possible... possibly to the point where people can develop their own currencies (fiat or commodity, as they choose, and full reserve or fractional reserve), NPCs are gradually phased out and replaced by PCs, so you have to buy things, get training, get quests, etc. from other players; houses and shops can be built but also destroyed and can be broken into (or just walked into if there is an unlocked door); etc.
Of course, you have to be careful. Giving everyone a free sword and suit of armor will impact those areas of the economy. And you have to make revenue for the company - so what are people getting for their real-life money? This will have great impact on the economy.
I have to hope for the best, but economics in MMOs is extraordinarily tricky. The most basic problem is this: infinite world leads to infinite supply, leading to infinite inflation
This would more likely cause deflation, unless you are talking about currency supply.
Goblin Squad Member
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Bear with me a bit as I'm a complete noob to MMO-RPGs; I've read over the FAQ and one of my big concerns also seems to be one of the areas that GoblinWorks & Paizo have put considerable development into and I figure you'll have the answer, despite the project being so new.
Regarding the economy of the Pathfinder Online world:
One of the great parts of the game Monopoly is that there is a finite amount of money and a limited number of Houses and Hotels. So, even if you can afford to put Hotels on your Boardwalk and Park Place, if there aren't any left to buy, you can't and you'll die poor, miserable and lonely from a venereal disease in real life.
Is this so in Pathfinder Online?
Let me spell out what I mean: If my PC enters an area in The River Kingdoms like one from "Stolen Lands" and builds a keep and a small village, gathers himself an army, and developes a manufacturing industry -- are those resources -- the soldiers, blacksmiths, wenches, lumber, that particular hill, lake & woodland, all used up? Or Is there an infinite number of NPCs and hills & rivers?Ultimately, how does the gentleman who plays four hours per month not become overwhelmed by the gentleman who plays eighty hours per week?
Thanks.
Easy when most of the wealth winds up in the hands of 1% of the player base, you get a few thousand players to sit in the towns streets chanting "Occupy the stolen lands!"
Easy when most of the wealth winds up in the hands of 1% of the player base, you get a few thousand players to sit in the towns streets chanting "Occupy the stolen lands!"Bear with me a bit as I'm a complete noob to MMO-RPGs; I've read over the FAQ and one of my big concerns also seems to be one of the areas that GoblinWorks & Paizo have put considerable development into and I figure you'll have the answer, despite the project being so new.
Regarding the economy of the Pathfinder Online world:
One of the great parts of the game Monopoly is that there is a finite amount of money and a limited number of Houses and Hotels. So, even if you can afford to put Hotels on your Boardwalk and Park Place, if there aren't any left to buy, you can't and you'll die poor, miserable and lonely from a venereal disease in real life.
Is this so in Pathfinder Online?
Let me spell out what I mean: If my PC enters an area in The River Kingdoms like one from "Stolen Lands" and builds a keep and a small village, gathers himself an army, and developes a manufacturing industry -- are those resources -- the soldiers, blacksmiths, wenches, lumber, that particular hill, lake & woodland, all used up? Or Is there an infinite number of NPCs and hills & rivers?Ultimately, how does the gentleman who plays four hours per month not become overwhelmed by the gentleman who plays eighty hours per week?
Thanks.
This made me laugh so hard...
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I have to hope for the best, but economics in MMOs is extraordinarily tricky. The most basic problem is this: infinite world leads to infinite supply, leading to infinite inflationThis would more likely cause deflation, unless you are talking about currency supply.
Currency supply, yes. But in my experience additional resources in MMOs equals additional currency. Commodities just don't seem to play much of a role since most economics in MMOs do not revolve around consumable goods.
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Eh ... I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on MMOs. But yeah, I never needed wheat or flour to keep my character alive, and I never lost too much equipment to fatigue or wear and tear. Price levels were dramatically unstable, and gold supply always seemed to exceed the rate of gear manufacturing. I'm not a WoW player, but I'm given to understand there are similar problems there.
The only 'free' economy I am familiar with would be EVE Online. And that is an ... interesting case.
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EVE is an excellent case, and is my MMO of choice. If PFO could be a fantasy, terrestrial EVE with d20 mechanics, that would just make my day. More than my day, but you get it.
As far as finite vs infinite in EVE, there is technically infinite resources (respawning minerals), but resources can be destroyed in rather large quantities, for example a ship being destroyed in combat (although, a very minor amount of resources from the wreckage can be recovered).
I think to an extent, respawning resources might be acceptable, if there's permadeath, of if characters at least lose their gear when they die.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with respawning resources in fixed locations can become problematic. Some MMO's(not naming names) have hordes of people "farming" these sites and killing anyone who tries to get to these resources. This and some other major problems is what concerns me.
I think PFO should really look at EVE since a lot of the economy concerns that could be raised have been solved in EVE. For example the farming you mention: In EVE there is plenty of astroid belts to go around, but ranged after their profitability. So yes if you are afraid of dying you can stay in the less populated and safe belt,s but if you are able to protect yourself or willing to take a risk you can earn more.
I guess in a fantasy adaptation this would be something like: You can mine your copper or your regular wood next to the safe village and guards, or you can venture up in the mountains where the real gold and diamonds are, with the risk of running into a horde of mobs and other NPC and PC villains. Or venture out into the dangerous iron forest for that special wood needed to build proper castles, but you risk running into a pack of direwolves...
I'm not an expert of MMO, just putting here my two cents.
In a real medieval environment resources are near limitless, but the workforce is small and technology keeps extraction slow. To properly exploit take time and building a proper complex is a full time job. The raw material is only the first step. Usually it has to be moved to more civilized areas. And the processed maybe more than once. This means that for 1 mine you can have lots of people joining forces to make the thing profitable. You can also have people going around robbing and pillaging, but these people will not stay long, just grab and run. This is fine too cause it gives the reasons to build up law enforcers groups.
Resource exploit should be a team effort. Places more organized feed more people.
Then you can have different quality of ore or resource. Plenty of examples in the real world
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I think when you make gathering resources a time-consuming activity, not many people will wish to engage in it. In the frame of a Pathfinder economy; even with the aid of magic, resource gathering is going to be something of a hassle. That's not to say I think it should be made annoying or frustrating simply for the sake of being so, to discourage players. I think a pragmatic approach, using what the PFRPG has already provided system-wise, and adding what little needs to be added should suffice.
I think if you make it time consuming, AND there are alternatives, nobody will do it. But if you make it so the best stuff requires crafting, there will be some willing to put the time into it. And like any free market, if they make huge sums of money doing it, others will join in until an equilibrium price is reached. (Unless, of course, there are high barriers to entry, but we won't go there.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultimately, how does the gentleman who plays four hours per month not become overwhelmed by the gentleman who plays eighty hours per week?
Thanks.
Ultimately, this is my greatest concern - it is exactly what I've been discussing with my Pen and Paper PFRPG group of players. We all love the idea of a PFRPG MMO, and we all play Lord of the Rings Online currently.
But we are all family guys - full time careers, with wife and kids, etc, and we all play pen and paper versions of Pathfinder (among other games) each week.
Thus our LotRO gaming is very sparse - typically when a table-top game is cancelled due to schedule SNAFUs or one of us has a bonus day off and has nothing else to do.
We have a Kinship that I lead, I have a kin-house etc, but I play less than once a month - but it IS there when we want to play, and though I have a few rather robust characters in regards to their power, I just don't play enough to run with the pack so to speak.
However, in my week or so between gaming, I never have to worry about the kinhouse being taken over, or my character's wealth/possessions raided, etc.
I don't know this could be avoided unless you truly live 24 hours in a game since everyone has different schedules in life some are always awakes when other players are sleeping. How do you protect your assets when you've not "online" and how do you have a chance to succeed or survive if you only have time to play once a week or even less??
Other than this concern - it sounds amazing so far what Goblinworks and Paizo is doing here.
I prefer LotRO MMO vs say WoW or others because LotRO is more geared on characters and journeys/exploration of the world. I prefer that more sandboxy style. But the art is also more believable. WoW to me, looks too cartoony. I would hope PFRPG goes with a bit more realistic appearance.
Robert
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think if you make it time consuming, AND there are alternatives, nobody will do it. But if you make it so the best stuff requires crafting, there will be some willing to put the time into it. And like any free market, if they make huge sums of money doing it, others will join in until an equilibrium price is reached. (Unless, of course, there are high barriers to entry, but we won't go there.)
I agree with this assessment. In Lord of the Rings Online, usually the best things you can craft at a given level is better than most or all of the rewards for quests at that level.
So it's a worthwhile cause to learn to craft - or at the very least gather resources to barter it to a craftsman to make something for you.
Furthermore, the way it's set up is that you need multiple "craftsman" to make things. The concept is based on Tolkien's prevalence of "fellowships" and community. Some can "mine" the resources, while others can "craft" the mined resources. Rarely can any one character do it all. Thus a prospector can gather the resources and use it as trade to a craftsman to make something for him. While a weaponsmith for instance can make wood-based weapons, but can't properly gather and treat the wood. So he relies on a woodsman to do this for him. In the end, it makes up the basis for the economy and infrastructure of trade and commerce.
But as was discussed, the ends justify the means, because it provides a more customizable and better range of rewards/items than is typically available via purchase or reward.
Robert
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope resources are limited, but renewable where applicable. If you chop down a forest to build a fort, you will have a field around that fort. The forest may grow back in time and bigger/older trees = more wood when you cut them down. So, it becomes a question of balancing resource management. Of course, I also do not think you should be able to carry a stack of logs in your inventory...
Dwarves will mine, metal and rock do not grow back. This is why they prettied up the tunnels into their dwellings. As they use resources in a given spot, they will have to keep going deeper to find what they are looking for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultimately, this is my greatest concern
Ultimately, how does the gentleman who plays four hours per month not become overwhelmed by the gentleman who plays eighty hours per week?
The simple answer ist not.
The complex answer is that in a sandbox MMO character development is usually far less of a hassle than in themepark MMOs.
The reason for this is that in sandbox it is not that much the character that matters than the player, or rather the players social interaction and understanding of the ins and outs of the game which in turn is usually far more complex than in themepark MMOs.
In other words, if you play only a few hours a week you will have a char of roughly the same mechanical power than the nerd who plays several hours a day - but you might not have the connections.
But if you manage to be part of a good guild, it matters far less than in themepark MMOs.
Just don't expect to be the one in charge - you will usually be a rank and file man and have to do as the guild does which in turn can be very satisfying.
Goblinworks Founder
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Dwarves will mine, metal and rock do not grow back. This is why they prettied up the tunnels into their dwellings. As they use resources in a given spot, they will have to keep going deeper to find what they are looking for.
There's a reason way back in the early editions for why elves and dwarves didn't get along very well. When the dwarves run out of stone, they chop down forests for support beams ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In other words, if you play only a few hours a week you will have a char of roughly the same mechanical power than the nerd who plays several hours a dayDoes anyone else find the use of "nerd" as a disparaging term here hilarious?
I would not say hilarious, but I do agree that the term "nerd" has gone through linguistic amelioration in recent times. Micmacs choice of words however, does not lessen the intent of his/her message.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would not say hilarious, but I do agree that the term "nerd" has gone through linguistic amelioration in recent times. Micmacs choice of words however, does not lessen the intent of his/her message.In other words, if you play only a few hours a week you will have a char of roughly the same mechanical power than the nerd who plays several hours a dayDoes anyone else find the use of "nerd" as a disparaging term here hilarious?
Actually, I think it does provide some insight into how certain people view the game, and how they feel they ought to be treated in it.
For instance, those willing to use disparaging terms to describe others who invest themselves heavily in the game (such terms that I've seen here over the last week include "thirteen year-old," "nerd," "no-life," and "loser") probably feel as though the dedication put into the game by the 20-hours-a-week players don't entitle them to enjoy a much more powerful character than the person who plays for two hours per week.
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One of the things that is different about EVE from a lot of other MMOs is that newbies can matter. While they are going out and learning the advanced techniques, they are still adding to a guild as a whole. Low level resources are still important at the high end game, and weak ships can still noticably influence major combats. This makes recruiting newbies into your guild important. Even if they only play casually, they tend to be a boon in resources or additional man power. You don't need to be a hyper-optimized player to participate in group endevors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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probably feel as though the dedication put into the game by the 20-hours-a-week players don't entitle them to enjoy a much more powerful character than the person who plays for two hours per week.
I am in the 2 hour a week camp; but don't get me wrong - I in no way assume I'm entitled to a character as powerful as someone who puts in 20 hours a week.
However where most of those in my camp draw the line, is having those two hours a week spoiled by those who CAN afford to put in 20, 30, 40+ hours a week of gaming.
And to be frank - those that can are typically not those that have a lot of other responsibilities such as family, career, etc.
To be in the camp as myself as having those types of responsibilities, and prioritizing them as we do (coming before recreational online gaming), and to have the couple hours of fun we can and do allocate to ourselves be spoiled by the others in that camp is what creates the animosity between the two camps, and thus fosters and generates the oft mentioned insulting monikers that you've addressed. I personally do not employ them at others, but I can empathize with those who have.
Robert
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In other words, if you play only a few hours a week you will have a char of roughly the same mechanical power than the nerd who plays several hours a dayDoes anyone else find the use of "nerd" as a disparaging term here hilarious?
It's pretty hilarious when nerds call other nerds out and try to act superior to them.
We're all nerds, we just play dumb elfgames different.