Leadership is too good for a feat. That's a simple statement of fact. Now, it can be ignored and people will just take the feat at level 7 if allowed, or some people ban it altogether. I want to go the other way. i WANT people to have cohorts. They can make great plot elements, and be a great way to incorporate NPC's into the PC's retinue.
The reasons for this are many.
1. I dislike feat taxes. If a feat is a no-brainer, it's not a fun choice.
2. I like for the players to feal like big frakkin heroes, even when they're lower level. I mostly run E7, so having to wait until level 7 to get someone who idolizes you makes no sense.
3. Leadership is a good measurement of BBEG's base forces; how many of them are loyal followers and how many are just in it for the cash?
The basic idea: Giving everyone leadership for free. At level 1.
More advanced idea: Linkylink
I also changed it from measuring levels to measuring CR. I did this because it negates a lot of the debating monstrous cohorts/followers, and because it opens up for them in a balanced manner (balanced from what I can see). I've seen people argue that you can't have monstrous followers (I agree that that is RAI but it makes no sense sometimes), and I've seen people argue that since the follower table only measures level, you can have a level 1 storm giant warrior as a level 1 follower by RAW. This way, it's more explicit.
I also included a note on designing cohorts that we've used for some time. It disallows a player from optimizing it to hell, but still allows for some control.
What do you people think? Anything big that fails? I'm a little afraid about the conversion of level to CR, since I don't know if any low-CR monsters can break what should and should not be possible at those levels. Any ideas?
I've never had someone take it, but if I did I would just roleplay it out and not charge a feat.
Whoah, never had someone take it? I've probably never had a player NOT take it.
But yeah, you can definately incorporate roleplaying into it, I usually do - but I use leadership to determine how the cohort actually is statted and the like.
I've never had someone take it, but if I did I would just roleplay it out and not charge a feat.Whoah, never had someone take it? I've probably never had a player NOT take it.
But yeah, you can definately incorporate roleplaying into it, I usually do - but I use leadership to determine how the cohort actually is statted and the like.
Yep, that's how it usually goes. Different groups' play styles vary widely on Leadership.
Something I'd suggest for followers is giving players freedom to choose a larger number of weaker followers, or few strong ones. One PC may prefer 10 1st level experts acting as craftsmen, while another may prefer 5 2nd level warriors acting as a house guard. If you're planning to run E7, I'd do something like giving 10 CR worth of followers at level 7, with a cap of CR 2 for any individual. Then, modify that 10 CR by Charisma and any other leadership modifiers you like. (Fairness & Generosity, Great Power, etc.)
Something I'd suggest for followers is giving players freedom to choose a larger number of weaker followers, or few strong ones. One PC may prefer 10 1st level experts acting as craftsmen, while another may prefer 5 2nd level warriors acting as a house guard. If you're planning to run E7, I'd do something like giving 10 CR worth of followers at level 7, with a cap of CR 2 for any individual. Then, modify that 10 CR by Charisma and any other leadership modifiers you like. (Fairness & Generosity, Great Power, etc.)
That's a really good suggestion and also gets rid of that annoying table. A formula would be nice, I'll think about one. I prefer the followers to start showing up before level 7, at least for charismatic characters.
This is an interesting idea, particularly for games that were going to end up leadership focused anyway.
I think it would make much more sense to base leadership scores on CR, not levels. That way you could get rid of the bestial charm feat, you'd avoid potential problems like creatures with odd CRs getting cohorts more powerful than themselves and the whole system would seem more consistent to me.
What do you do about requests for cohorts who can grant limitless wealth/wishes/whatever?
You could always just "invent" a cohort or companion feat I guess that gives you a loyal adventuring companion (with none of the standard penalties or additional followers that come with the Leadership feat).
I think it would make much more sense to base leadership scores on CR, not levels. That way you could get rid of the bestial charm feat, you'd avoid potential problems like creatures with odd CRs getting cohorts more powerful than themselves and the whole system would seem more consistent to me.
What is the Bestial Charm feat? I haven't seen that one.
This is an interesting idea, particularly for games that were going to end up leadership focused anyway.
I think it would make much more sense to base leadership scores on CR, not levels. That way you could get rid of the bestial charm feat, you'd avoid potential problems like creatures with odd CRs getting cohorts more powerful than themselves and the whole system would seem more consistent to me.
What do you do about requests for cohorts who can grant limitless wealth/wishes/whatever?
The issue with that is that a random plesiosaurus shouldn't have a bunch of henchmen - which is the reason for the "racial hd doesn't count" to begin with, and which I think should always be the case for Leadership even as a feat. An adult green dragon could just take the feat as is and have a leadership score of 20 (assuming aloof, cruel, special power, base of operations and great renown) - allowing a level 14 (CR13) cohort.
How would you get a cohort more powerful than yourself? The max CR for a cohort is your level -3, so even as a 5th level kobold warrior (cr 3) the max CR cohort is CR 2.
About wealth and wishes: Cohorts are still DM controlled, not PC extensions, so there's that. Also, I dislike creatures that can grant limitless wealth/wishes anyway, and have no such in my games. That said, what I'd do is probably request the material component to be spent when granting a wish (or other abusable spell), even if it's a spell-like with no component normally. That way, they get it cheaper than getting a wizard to cast it for them, but still, it's a lot of cash.
Wish abuse is an issue however you want to play the game otherwise, anyway. I see planar allies as being more abusable due to the fact that you can get a bunch, while a vizier companion will only grant three wishes ever.
What is the Bestial Charm feat? I haven't seen that one.
It's in the link, and lets you count racial HD towards your leadership score.
The issue with that is that a random plesiosaurus shouldn't have a bunch of henchmen - which is the reason for the "racial hd doesn't count" to begin with, and which I think should always be the case for Leadership even as a feat. An adult green dragon could just take the feat as is and have a leadership score of 20 (assuming aloof, cruel, special power, base of operations and great renown) - allowing a level 14 (CR13) cohort.
How would you get a cohort more powerful than yourself? The max CR for a cohort is your level -3, so even as a 5th level kobold warrior (cr 3) the max CR cohort is CR 2.
Actually, I think CR still makes decent sense. A dragon should be able to get other dragons and/or great hordes of kobolds to follow it. As for plesiosauri, they don't have the intellectual capacity to actually recruit and maintain followers, so it doesn't matter what their maximum is unless they become intelligent somehow.
If they DO become intelligent they're truly impressive, powerful and almost certainly unique among their kind, so why not let them have powerful followers? I can imagine one having another of its own kind as a cohort and a cult of low level druids as worshippers.As a general rule, things that don't seem like they ought to be leaders probably won't have great leadership scores for their level anyway.
I can't think of a specific way to get a cohort more powerful than yourself, but it's a danger of the change of currency that takes place when you calculate the benefits of your leadership score. You measure the leader's power using one scale (levels) and use that to set a limit on another scale (CR). Since the two scales don't match up, leaders with an unusual number of HD for their CR will get weird results, potentially including cohorts more powerful than themselves.
I once played campaign where my sorcerer took the feat.
The DM said I could only give it NPC levels (as opposed to class levels) so I made it an adept.
It really changed the game dynamic to have a second pair of eyes for perception checks, as well as my own personal buffbot/healer.
Leadership is now banned at my table
My Leadership:
Prerequisites: Character level 6th.
Benefits: Having this feat enables you to attract loyal companions, devoted followers, and subordinates who assist you. You gain a Leadership score equal to your CR plus your Charisma modifier. Unaffiliated allies looking for leadership will naturally follow the orders of the person with the highest leadership score, in preference to other characters.
Followers
The number of followers you may attract is determined by the sum of all followers’ individual CR scores, as determined by the following formula (this total is your leadership potential):
Leadership Potential = [1/2 (Leadership Score - 5)]^2
For example, a CR 9 character with a Charisma of 15 would have a leadership score of 11, and a leadership potential of 9. He could attract up to 27 first-level experts or warriors (CR 1/3 each x 27 = 9), or up to 18 first-level fighters (CR ½ each x 18 = 9), or a kennel of 5 riding dogs (CR 1 each) and four 2nd level ranger handlers (CR 1 each), etc. You may attract followers of any number and CR up to your leadership potential within the following limits:
Maximum CR
There are three types of followers you may maintain: cohorts (aides or close companions); retainers (servants or men-at-arms dedicated to your service); and hirelings (contractors with no particular loyalty to you beyond being paid).
Unusual Followers
In general, attracting followers of different races from one’s own should require some skill prerequisite. For example, attracting animal followers might require a number of ranks in Handle Animal or Wild Empathy equal to the highest CR animal. Attracting fey or magical beasts might require a number of ranks in Survival equal to the highest such CR.
Advancement
As you gain experience, you can “level up” or advance your followers as you see fit, as long as their final CRs conform to the above restrictions.
Loyalty
Followers are not mindless slaves; however, they respond well to good leaders. Whenever one or more of your followers must make a Will save or an opposed check to avoid being bribed, subverted, turned against you, etc., your Charisma modifier applies to the saving throw or check. For example, a follower with a +2 Will save bonus, in the service of a 17 Charisma character, would have a Will save bonus of +5 against charm spells, etc. When you personally lead followers into battle, they gain a morale bonus to all Will saves equal to your Charisma bonus (if any).
Special
Fighters gain Leadership as a bonus feat at 9th level. A fighter with the Leadership feat adds half his fighter level as a competence bonus to his Leadership score.
Whether I allow it at the table has to do with the number of players. If it's just a couple of players, then I encourage it. The coherts or whatnot don't really do much RP'ing (unless its something we feel is needed to help flesh out the game). They generally are a loyal extension of the hero. They aren't free though! And if they get killed off, it makes getting future followers that much harder. I discourage it in my games simply because with 4-6 players, there's already enough going on with the board. However, if they are intent on it, I allow them to do so for other benefits.
Bascially, I have the 'cohert' provide bonuses. The party may have a guild or a caravan or a shipping business that the Cohert heads up and provides bonuses for. Sometimes that character is backup if the main character dies... he may even save his master! You can have a lot of fun with leadership even if you want another combantant on the table.
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But yeah, you can definately incorporate roleplaying into it, I usually do - but I use leadership to determine how the cohort actually is statted and the like.
That's pretty much what I meant. Use the mechanics, don't charge them a feat slot, make it depend on roleplaying to keep their cohort around. Whoever it is, they are still an NPC under DM control.
My suggestion for the "uber monster follower" loophole is to have followers and cohorts be limited to 1HD humanoids by default, and then create an Exotic Follower feat (prereq Cha 15) which allows recruiting humanoid followers having a base racial HD equal to your Charisa modifier, and then one or more feats allowing recruiting of intelligent non-humanoids. This specifies a sensical limit on what fraction of a follower's CR must be class levels, whose effects can be somewhat more predictable and anticipated than racial abilities. Alternatively, some kind of Ego system similar to that for intelligent magic items could be instituted. Storm giants, dragons, pit fiends, and the like shouldn't enthusiastically follow just anyone, even if their leader seems like an exceptionally powerful individual. Seems like there should be more than just class levels, charisma, and alignment/agenda similarities coming into play with such high-end beings.
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Not all PCs' concepts are compatible with the benefits of Leadership.
I actually like that Leadership has to be taken as a feat. For me, it simulates quite nicely the effort a PC is going to make to pursue a given goal.
And the Leadership feat is vague enough to represent a lot of varied situations.
Of course, it can be misused, but then it is the GM's responsibility to take care of what he allows his players to have. And that holds true for a great many things beyond the Leadership feat.