It says evil creatures, but is a human with an evil alignment an evil creature, or is it referring to something like a devil that actually has the evil type?
Evil creatures include anything with an evil alignment.
It doesn't matter if that succubus has reformed and is now a Paladin, she still has the [evil] subtype and thus is at a disadvantage against anyone under a protection from evil spell. After all, even though she's Lawful Good, she's still a demon.
I don't think I'd agree with such a ruling on that scenario. It would mean that such a character would be vulnerable to all four alignment-based damage types. It wouldn't make sense for a deity to continue punishing a reformed creature while giving a fallen one a free pass simply because of how they were originally created. That goes against the very concepts of redemption and religious calling.
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It doesn't matter if that succubus has reformed and is now a Paladin, she still has the [evil] subtype and thus is at a disadvantage against anyone under a protection from evil spell. After all, even though she's Lawful Good, she's still a demon.I don't think I'd agree with such a ruling on that scenario. It would mean that such a character would be vulnerable to all four alignment-based damage types. It wouldn't make sense for a deity to continue punishing a reformed creature while giving a fallen one a free pass simply because of how they were originally created. That goes against the very concepts of redemption and religious calling.
But that ruling is not RAW. From the PRD:
Evil Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the evil-aligned outer planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).
A Succubi, no matter what she has done with her life, will always be:
outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Yeah, I'd call BS on any GM who enforced that rule on a succubus paladin. I mean if that's too great a moral conundrum for them to handle then we probably wouldn't have any business sitting at the same table.
Moral of the story: "She's not bad, she's just drawn that way."
Yeah, I'd call BS on any GM who enforced that rule on a succubus paladin. I mean if that's too great a moral conundrum for them to handle then we probably wouldn't have any business sitting at the same table.
Moral of the story: "She's not bad, she's just drawn that way."
The subtype is fundamentally a part of the creature though. Unless the succubus is changed to another outsider type it should be enforced. I figure if angels can fall to become devils, then demons and devils can become other outsider types.
Penance is the process of atoning... the process of paying for misdeeds. However, once someone has paid off their debt, you don't get to keep charging them interest.
The subtype is fundamentally a part of the creature though. Unless the succubus is changed to another outsider type it should be enforced. I figure if angels can fall to become devils, then demons and devils can become other outsider types.
In my PbP, one of the PCs is a succubus who worked pretty damn hard at mending her ways. Thru an atonement ceremony, I determined that she lost the Evil descriptor and retained only the chaotic descriptor (her sponsor was Chaotic Good). The act also changed her physically and her reddish black wings became golden.
So yes, if things need to be that black and white, change their subtype to fit the character. If an angel fell and started going Anakin Skywalker, I'd damn sure strip it of the Good descriptor, wouldn't you?
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The subtype is fundamentally a part of the creature though. Unless the succubus is changed to another outsider type it should be enforced. I figure if angels can fall to become devils, then demons and devils can become other outsider types.In my PbP, one of the PCs is a succubus who worked pretty damn hard at mending her ways. Thru an atonement ceremony, I determined that she lost the Evil descriptor and retained only the chaotic descriptor (her sponsor was Chaotic Good). The act also changed her physically and her reddish black wings became golden.
So yes, if things need to be that black and white, change their subtype to fit the character. If an angel fell and started going Anakin Skywalker, I'd damn sure strip it of the Good descriptor, wouldn't you?
I would say that the sub types are not mental, but physical make up. In this case, the fallen angel would still be made of the "stuff of good". Note, I could see a ritual or quest to change that makeup and ditch that weakness.
the same for the atoned succubus. Dealing with, and protecting that demon until she can be changed would make a heck of a story line!
Dealing with, and protecting that demon until she can be changed would make a heck of a story line!
Heh, that was actually a difficulty we faced. The party was about 3rd or 4th level and had apprehended two people in a playhouse under suspicions of attempted assassination of a foreign dignitary. Turns out the two were an evil mage and an erinyes that was "on loan" to him.
Due to the severe nature of the scenario, the city's bishop came to the scene and was on hand when the devil revealed herself. (The devil had disguised herself as a young girl and was putting the succubus thru an emotional ringer.) When the fighting broke out, the bishop immediately began casting spells that blasted creatures with the evil subtype. Our poor succubus was nearly blown to flinders in the process and the party members ended up having to vouch for her after the fight had concluded.
The following day, the succubus' friend, the same woman who she had saved from being assassinated and herself a priestess of another deity, sponsored an atonement ceremony for the succubus at that city's cathedral. The party's cleric (who was of the same faith as the bishop/cathedral, served as a witness. A prime reason for this was not only to protect the succubus in future fights, but also so that she would not be forced back to consorting with evil doers simply to stay alive.
Some 6,000 posts later, and she has not disappointed.
On a tangentially related note, I'm currently LOLing at a video Bulmahn linked to on Facebook: JourneyQuest Virtues: Honor. ;)
I don't think I'd agree with such a ruling on that scenario. It would mean that such a character would be vulnerable to all four alignment-based damage types.
From my understanding such a character would be at an advantage when fighting evil. As per RAW both the Chaotic and Evil subtypes override any effects determined by alignment.
So a Lawful Good character with the chaotic & evil subtypes wouldn't be effected by protection from good or smite good or any other effects that specifically target good. A anti paladin or cleric of a chaotic evil god might suddenly have a bit more trouble dealing with such a character.
I don't think I'd agree with such a ruling on that scenario. It would mean that such a character would be vulnerable to all four alignment-based damage types.From my understanding such a character would be at an advantage when fighting evil. As per RAW both the Chaotic and Evil subtypes override any effects determined by alignment.Not true. As Happler quoted from the rules:
Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.
Ah seems I'm mistaken. Well in any case I'd be more worried about a banishment/dismissal.
Thanks for the catch.
And once the succubus paladin has successfully atoned and redeemed herself for aeons of being the exact antithesis of lawful and good, she would transmigrate to something other than a succubus, and thus would no longer have the chaotic and evil subtypes.
It looks like we are on the same page now. Yes, that's what I would consider a logical and internally consistent way of dealing with such a case. That's essentially how I handled it when it came up with Eric's PC last year. :)
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It doesn't matter if that succubus has reformed and is now a Paladin, she still has the [evil] subtype and thus is at a disadvantage against anyone under a protection from evil spell. After all, even though she's Lawful Good, she's still a demon.I don't think I'd agree with such a ruling on that scenario. It would mean that such a character would be vulnerable to all four alignment-based damage types. It wouldn't make sense for a deity to continue punishing a reformed creature while giving a fallen one a free pass simply because of how they were originally created. That goes against the very concepts of redemption and religious calling.
As long as she keep her subtype she is made of evil an chaos incarnate. So she is hindered by effects against evil and chaos.
To remove that kind of hindrance she need to change her type. For a outsider I would rule it as possible even without resorting to magic, but it would require a lot of time and action appropriate to the new alignment.@Laithoron from level 1 to 4 seem really too little for that to me.
If it was from 11 to 14, or after doing some big quest for good or something similar, ok, but it should be hard. In theory she has a lot to atone.
Naturally it all depend on how you calculate her "levels" from being a succubus.
I would suggest to change some of her innate abilities too to reflect the new alignment.
@Laithoron from level 1 to 4 seem really too little for that to me.
If it was from 11 to 14, or after doing some big quest for good or something similar, ok, but it should be hard. In theory she has a lot to atone.
Naturally it all depend on how you calculate her "levels" from being a succubus.
Yes well considering this is a PbP and we're using the slow XP track to [partially] compensate for how powerful the characters are, I don't intend to wait another 3 to 5 years. ;P
Another factor to consider is that I borrow heavily from real world spirituality — in this case Judeo/Christian: This means that performing good works is not what determines someone's salvation. Rather, it is the act of accepting a deity's hand when it is stretched out to them that makes them worthy. From that point onward, that person's good deeds are holy because they are holy. That person performs good deeds not because of a compulsion, but out of their own desire to do good.
Making someone wait around and continue to be 'de facto evil' when they already see the error of their ways and sincerely want to change the path they are on just because it's not dramatic enough yet runs counter to the principles of the deity in question. When the prodigal son returned home, his father didn't boot him back outside and say, "Come back when I'm on my deathbed because it will be more dramatic."
I would suggest to change some of her innate abilities too to reflect the new alignment.
Yep, she lost pretty much all of her supernatural, and spell-like abilities. There were other physical changes that accompanied the loss of the evil descriptor as well. (Note, she's still chaotic as her sponsor was a Chaotic Good priestess of the CG goddess of inspiration, artistry, and passion.)
In terms of gaining new abilities, that is what has actually become quest-based. Now that she is freed of the one-ton weight of [evil] around her neck, it actually becomes possible to begin climbing back to the role she was originally intended for: that of a muse or a lillend.
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The "Enlighten on the road to Damascus" scenario. (I hope it is written right, I an not native English speaker).
Yes, that is a a valid approach.
I prefer a scenario where you have a choice but you have to struggle to follow it. Salvation is the moment when you accept the possibility and the reason to change, but then you have to prove that you are worthy of it.
Something more similar to World of Darkness humanity for vampires. To increase it you have to act as if you already had the higher level of humanity.
Yes, requiring the character to perform great act to be allowed to change alignment probably isn't necessary, especially if the character had some sudden illumination to justify her change.
On the other hand making it too easy seem to depreciate the value of the change.
In my games I have had a little number of alignment shifts, the players generally know what kind of characters they want to play and stay reasonably close to the selected alignment. From what I read in these boards some player try a to play it in a cheesy way, selecting an alignment for a few levels to qualify for one class, then switching to another with some claim of "having seen the light" to qualify for another class, so I tend to be a bit suspicious of sudden changes in alignment. Still if the player is interested in it primarily for the role playing value of the change and not as the way to get more power gaming the system it is perfectly acceptable.
The subtype is fundamentally a part of the creature though. Unless the succubus is changed to another outsider type it should be enforced. I figure if angels can fall to become devils, then demons and devils can become other outsider types.In my PbP, one of the PCs is a succubus who worked pretty damn hard at mending her ways. Thru an atonement ceremony, I determined that she lost the Evil descriptor and retained only the chaotic descriptor (her sponsor was Chaotic Good). The act also changed her physically and her reddish black wings became golden.
So yes, if things need to be that black and white, change their subtype to fit the character. If an angel fell and started going Anakin Skywalker, I'd damn sure strip it of the Good descriptor, wouldn't you?
I understand what you are saying, but by the rules they still have to deal with it. Changing your outlook on things does not change what you are as an outsider at least not unless you are an outsider and it actually changes you type.
Now if I were a GM I would not change one from one type to another instantly, but I might change things over time to reflect the evil subtype going away.
I understand what you are saying, but by the rules they still have to deal with it.
Yes, and this is a perfect example of why it is sometimes necessary to remind people of Rule 0 even in a rules discussion. Even in a 576 page tome you cannot account for every scenario — it would be counterproductive and confusing to try. This is a prime example of a situation in which a GM should step back and evaluate things based on the cosmology of their setting, the tone of the campaign, and what is right for their group.
And a Human Paladin who doesn't believe that she's one of the good guys can smite her.
Yep. She's reaping the reward for her past deeds.
Of course the true irony here would be when our human paladin ends up falling should they persist in their persecution...
Past misdeeds do not excuse present misdeeds. Knowingly attacking a consecrated servant of a good deity would be difficult to justify as a lawful good act. Evil beings might prey upon one another, but that is contrary to the very nature of good. There are enemies enough for paladins to fight against without trying to trip up one another.
Don't forget that a paladin's ability to smite, just like their spells and healing come directly from their deity. A deity that who called themselves lawful good, would be deserving of contempt for allowing the smite to go thru against another of their own champions. If that deity has already judged a being worthy of redemption and that being has not only atoned but dedicated their life to that deity, the human paladin would be performing a chaotic act should they persist in persecuting them. They would essentially be saying that their reckoning supersedes that of their deity. That is the path to a fall.
The "Enlighten on the road to Damascus" scenario. (I hope it is written right, I an not native English speaker).Pretty close. It's "Enlightenment on the road to Damascus". To enlighten someone is to help them see the light, whereas someone who has been enlightened has reached a state of enlightenment.
Yes, that is a a valid approach.
I prefer a scenario where you have a choice but you have to struggle to follow it. Salvation is the moment when you accept the possibility and the reason to change, but then you have to prove that you are worthy of it.
Yes, there are several methods by which it can be done, and many different variations on the story. Being as Lureene was still very young (she joined us at 2nd level I think), a ceremony that was more akin to Baptism/Confirmation and the purging of her own sort of 'original sin' was more appropriate. Quite simply, unlike her mother, she was not a being who had been around for aeons performing vile deeds.
A punishment that does not fit the crime and is far in excess of it is an injustice and [arguably] a sin it is own right.
@Laithoron from level 1 to 4 seem really too little for that to me.
If it was from 11 to 14, or after doing some big quest for good or something similar, ok, but it should be hard. In theory she has a lot to atone.Naturally it all depend on how you calculate her "levels" from being a succubus.
I would suggest to change some of her innate abilities too to reflect the new alignment.
+1
Part of it is the inherit nature of the creature. Were a demon to "unearn" its evil subtype, I'd want to make it part of the class progression, something that must be striven towards and earned.
It's also part of the peril, and roleplay, of playing such an unusual character. Her abilities should be transformed as she loses the subtype--they came from in part, the essence of what she had been and was.
Having the *possibility* of such a revelation, *provided she works for it* is part of redemption in a heroic, fantasy setting. It isn't wham, bam, thank you ma'am.
Ruggs: In this case, losing the evil subtype (and demonic abilities) was immediate — the atonement ceremony severed her abyssal and negative energy connections. In essence, it mirrored the way in which, upon falling, a paladin loses access to all of their special abilities immediately rather than gradually.
For Lureene, it has been the gaining of replacement abilities that has been gradual. She is still heroically working towards attaining her intended station as a muse/lillend. It's been no small part of the ongoing story actually, stretching back at least a good 10,000 posts at this point.
Judging by my conversations with Eric, he seems to be enjoying how his character's tale is unfolding. That right there is my primary concern. If he had wanted to pursue a more emo/tortured path, there are certainly plenty of storylines that would suit that preference. While I don't always succeed, I do try my best to set and solicit expectations for my campaigns.
Kalyth: All good examples, particularly the lich. In case my point has been unclear though, what I'm suggesting is that since divine effects are guided by the hand of a potentially omniscient being (played by the GM), there is no reason why such a being could not easily route effects to exclude certain creatures or extend their power to shield them via divine intervention. If a cleric can employ selective channeling, it stands to reason that they are mimicking some aspect of the divine in doing so (i.e. anything the cleric can do, their deity can do better).
If that LG lich stumbled across a planar rift or a machine spewing positive energy, I could see them being in trouble. Were they to join forces with a LG cleric/paladin, I'd say there is the potential that the deity might withhold some of that positive energy so as to spare that unlikely ally.
In the case of arcane magic, I'd be far less likely to make such exceptions since it seems styled to represent more of a force of nature than the invocation of a higher power.
Fozbek: I didn't necessarily think that you were. :) However, there are always lots of threads asking about paladins and what implications/consequences their code should entail. It seemed like a good opportunity to provide some food for thought given the alignment-themed nature of this thread.
Well, it's beyond the scope of this thread, and they weren't pertinent to this discussion, but there are a lot of concepts that I borrow from Hebrew mysticism, the Qabbalah, and the Tree of Life as well. Thus I'm in the habit of typing Judeo/Christian primarily in reference to the fact that they both revere the same Deity. I didn't intend any offense or disinformation.
Also, it was my understanding that the reason why Jews are referred to as the Chosen People is because God chose to offer them His covenant and they accepted it. That acceptance/covenant being the act that made the ancient Hebrews sacred and worthy to Him in the same way that baptism is the act that sanctifies a new Christian to Him.
From that standpoint, the initial 'entry conditions' would at least seem to be analogous even if the particulars of the ceremonies are quite different. That was the main point I was hoping to stress.
No problem, and thanks for sharing. I always love learning more about facts, viewpoints, how different people perceive and react to shared events. Even in cases where people disagree, I find that there is a lot that can be learned simply by understanding where others are coming from.
In any event, I'm glad you filled-me-in. Lord knows, I myself frequently take similar opportunities to share. :)
Changing your outlook on things does not change what you are as an outsider
I would argue that for one of the alignment exemplar outsiders, the act of actually changing their outlook on things (aka changing their alignment) would physically alter their very nature (aka their alignment subtype). The act of an archon falling from LG to CE for instance should strip it of its original subtypes (replacing them with something to match their status), and likewise the same for a demon rising from CE to NG for instance.
The thing is... if good, evil, chaos, and law are all outlooks from which Stuff™ can be made, then couldn't it stand to reason that if the outlook of that created being is changed then it might also alter their physical substance as well?
Don't forget the original devils were angels composed of the stuff of good, yet now they are composed of the stuff of evil. Many of those devil, particularly the most powerful, are still the same being. Therefore, there is some precedent (logically if not in RAW) for the physical make-up of outsiders being able to change.
Ironically, the answer to this might actually lie in the ying/yang principle of neutrality — opposites each containing at least some small aspect of their inverse.
Don't forget the original devils were angels composed of the stuff of good, yet now they are composed of the stuff of evil. Many of those devil, particularly the most powerful, are still the same being. Therefore, there is some precedent (logically if not in RAW) for the physical make-up of outsiders being able to change.
Ironically, the answer to this might actually lie in the ying/yang principle of neutrality — opposites each containing at least some small aspect of their inverse.
I was with you until about here. From the Bestiary, devils are from the foulest portions of mortal souls, their "personalities and memories long since scoured by millennia."
Though, maybe you're referring to RL religions, and not the ingame version. :D
And her losing it quickly can make sense, I suppose. It is a comparison, though I'm still not sure how I feel about it. Still trying to wrap my head around it.
I'm seeing "divine oath" versus "essence." A paladin's oath is powerful. Yet, a paladin who breaks an oath is still human, for example.
What we have here is not only the changing of oaths (that is, removing onesself from that bindings of Hell), yet also a genetic tranformation of self. Does that make sense?
The transformation of a succubus to a paladin is...I would say, and this is just me, and I'm exploring this thought here, more in line with the paladin becoming an antipaladin. That is, it goes beyond the breaking of an oath, no matter how significant.
Let me explore this a little more, here. :)
When the paladin breaks their oath, most of them work to redeem themselves, or find a way to move on. The one who takes on the dark mantle (or the succubus who becomes a paladin, likewise) then, is very, VERY...
...rare.
Involved in their struggle is taking a new oath, but also a tranformation of personality, of beliefs.
What is making me stick here, though...is that time period between breaking their sacred oath to...becoming the complete opposite of everything they were before.
So how does this fit?
Another factor to consider is that I borrow heavily from real world spirituality — in this case Judeo/Christian: This means that performing good works is not what determines someone's salvation. Rather, it is the act of accepting a deity's hand when it is stretched out to them that makes them worthy. From that point onward, that person's good deeds are holy because they are holy. That person performs good deeds not because of a compulsion, but out of their own desire to do good.Total derailment, but that's a Christian idea. It's not Jewish at all. In Judaism, it is acts that matter more than personal faith by a LOT. There's a reason most Jews are totally OK with Maimonides even though he was agnostic/atheist (well they are now, they weren't back when he was alive but that's another story). Enlightenment by accepting a deity, baptism, purging 'original sin', the idea of original sin at all: all very much Christian ideas.
OK derailment over.
Well actually if we want to get technical, the idea that Laithoron put forth is a Protestant idea, not one that all Christians hold. Catholics believe (or at least believed for a long time) that good works were the way.
Sorry, had to say it.
Anyway, pretty interesting thread. I'm gonna side with Laithoron on most of this though. If a CE (or other) outsider goes through enough to actually change their alignment I think I'd change them to another type of outsider.
Well actually if we want to get technical, the idea that Laithoron put forth is a Protestant idea, not one that all Christians hold. Catholics believe (or at least believed for a long time) that good works were the way.
Hmm, so does that make me a bad Catholic then? Actually... nevermind. I'm pretty sure my mother and sister have been nagging me about the answer to that question ever since that Jewish girl I dated for 3 years in college... ;)
Ruggs: It's all good. I think at this point any actual rules discussion has turned into more of a theosophical discourse. And in terms of what I was thinking of, even in RL religious terms it's been millennia since Lucifer and a great many angels fell so that would seem to match up. I guess the matter for interpretation is how long it takes to scour a soul.
BTW, did you ever read the Fiendish Codex books from 3.5? I know James Jacobs helped author the abyssal one. Personally I really enjoyed the material they presented.
Anyway, I agree that a succubus paladin is something that would be exceptionally rare. (Even Lureene isn't one of those, nor does she aspire to be.) That's why I would advocate that such a unique situation deserves a critical eye over just blindly following RAW. Letter vs. Spirit of the law and all that.
EDIT: Whoa! Eric posted while I was editing!
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OK I have been lurking in this thread for a while, but now I think it is time for me to chime in here, as this discussion has centered around my character, Lureene.
First of all, I want to explain where she came from. Lureene is the product of a union between a human wizard (named Richardson) and a 3.5 demoness called a Lilitu demoness. These demonesses were known for being extremely beautiful and seductive. (I think they are in the old 3.5 demon book, Fiendish Codex)
Now Richardson, Lureene's father was a young and budding wizard based in the Dales of the Forgotten Realms. He was also a good-hearted soul, if a bit arrogant. Anyway, early on in his adventuring career, Richardson and his adventuring party ran afoul of a gnoll ranger, and in the ensuing combat was critted and slain in one blow. (Greataxe crits are quite painful...x4 crit...ouch.) OK, now you think the story ends there, but it doesn't. A short time later, Richardson was returned to life. Apparently, the wounds he suffered only APPEARED to be fatal...(he he he). OK, what really happened is he bargained his soul with a demoness calling herself Arvoreen for a second chance at life.
OK fast forward a little bit...Richardson finds himself seduced by a beautiful barmaid and they make love. As I am sure you have guessed by now, Lureene was the product of that union. Now, he has no idea Lureene exists at this point in time...but as his adventuring career progresses he meets an actual succubus named Couryanna, who works for Arvoreen yet secretly is trying to redeem herself, a process which has taken her millenia.
Now Lureene is raised by Arvoreen her mother and basically kept prisoner...until Couryanna leaves Lureene a note, and a book. The note explains about her father, and the book allows her to escape the prison and begin her search to save her father's soul.
BTW...at this time her AL is Chaotic Neutral. It is not until she meets the man she loves and also her best friend/sister that she feels a sense of compassion and caring for others. It does not officially change to Chaotic Good until she receives an Atonement spell. She basically laid the groundwork for the atonement ceremony through intense RPing
I hope this exposition did not bore you to tears...(I'm looking at you, Laithoron...he he) I just want to clear up Lureene's motivations and goals here.
Well, if anybody wants some mechanical way of changing a creature's alignment subtype, there's the D&D 3.0 book Savage Species. Starting on page 147 there are Rituals that you can undergo to alter a creature's type or subtype. On page 148 is the Ritual of Alignment.
Of course, being 3.0, there's an XP cost in addition to a gold piece cost, but that could easily be altered in the same manner that Pathfinder handles magic items and spells that used to have XP costs. :P
Well actually if we want to get technical, the idea that Laithoron put forth is a Protestant idea, not one that all Christians hold. Catholics believe (or at least believed for a long time) that good works were the way.Hmm, so does that make me a bad Catholic then? Actually... nevermind. I'm pretty sure my mother and sister have been nagging me about the answer to that question ever since that Jewish girl I dated for 3 years in college... ;)
Well like I said, used to believe. I'm sure Catholicism has changed quite a bit since the Protestant Reformation, but the performance of good works being a road to Heaven was one of the points the Protestants railed against.
Regardless of RL religious examples, I think you handled that properly. A god should have the capacity to change an outsider's makeup if they can somehow change their alignment. Obviously this should be very rare, but I believe you already touched on that.