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I'm NOT a rules guy
how in the hell did they get through playtesting?!:
Pretty sure his DEX is 30.
All PCs have uber stats.
PCs are 13th level.
A picture emerges. Maybe the guys who did the playtesting were actually rules guys, so they knew they were talking about. And probably they didn't test everything with "uber stats".
Because if you test things in a more moderate environment (where balance isn't right out of the window to begin with) and with actual rules knowledge, these feats aren't that bad.
Dragon Style? Sounds good, but not too good. The bonuses fit for a dragon-themed feat, they're not nearly worth a feat by themselves (unless you happen to come up against enemies that inflict those conditions regularly). The charge stuff is neat, and I could even see someone taking them by themselves, but considering we're talking about a monk here, they're not that great for them. They don't want to charge - they want to be next to the enemy to make a flurry, or else make a combat manoeuvre. And, finally, getting extra damage on one attack per round. Nice bonus, but not that spectacular really.
And the feat that allows you one attack against someone who missed you, provided you use up your one and only immediate/swift action? Please.
I'm not saying you should become a rules guy. I'm just saying that until you do become one, don't pull off big rants. Sounds like the guys ranting against evolution because they don't understand the thing about half an eye. Only worse :P
Hmmm, what should I take at 3rd level, TOUGHNESS gives me 3 HP and an HP every level. Or, Dragon Style...?
If you want to honestly compare feats, you need to learn how to benchmark: You don't use a mediocre feat as benchmark - one you are doing wrong, by the way. You get 1 HP per HD, but at least 3. You don't get 1/level PLUS 3.
Compared to a mediocre feat, many feats look like the clear winner. That's normal. That doesn't make those feats too good. Just better than mediocre.
Not that Toughness is bad. But it's not a must-have super-feat, either. That's okay. Not all of them need to be MHSFs
I have such a low esteem for gaming rules.
And such low knowledge. That's a bad combination. If you want to rant about something without looking silly, you should know what you're talking about! :P
But then again you're one of those order types, they apparently love looking silly and being made fun of. Otherwise they wouldn't be order types. ;P
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That's fine my perfectly good analysis won't be noticed because it's the last post on the first page.
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Well lets actually look at....
That is a really strong post.
I disagree with your adverb "significantly" comparing Gr Fort with Dragon Style Saves. But I can see the argument for "significantly." +2 on ALL Fort Saves is better than +2 on 3 Save situations. Significantly? I dunno, I don't think so, but....
The thing that seems to broken is combining that (and the STR damage) with what's already a solid Feat: Ignore rough terrain on Running, Charging, Withdrawing and can charge through friendly squares.
That all by itself is a great Feat. Absolutely as good or better than Fleet, Improved Init, Weapon Focus, +2 Save, Skill Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack (w/out the chain). I'd consider it in a heartbeat along with lots of other Feats. But when you add the Saves and STR damage, it's too much, way too much.
The most I can see is an argument of different playstyles and encounter designers. As DM and as a Player in a number of different DMs' games in the last couple years, I've seen (and run) lots and lots of rough terrain encounters -- so that almost every session has at least one.
And I'll say this, in groups of lots with PCs, being able to charge through friendly squares is huge -- maybe not so much if there's only 4 PCs. That's a really big difference. (And the game is designed with 4 PCs in mind, afterall, not 6-9.)
Also if there's lots of 5' or 10' corridors, charging through friendly squares is awesome.
Without the Save bonuses and STR to damage I don't have a problem with the Feat. Otherwise, it's broken. But more or less so depending on the DM's encounter design and # of PCs.
Remember though it isn't just +1/2 strength bonus -- it's +1/2 strength bonus on unarmed strikes and only the first one of the round.
In that it's much more like furious focus... which sounds nice... but never has been taken at my table (scratch that it was once -- then it was retrained).
The charging thing matters... almost never from what I've seen most the time you can charge already and besides as a GM I'm just going to smile when you charge -- sure give me a free full attack with basically a +2 to hit and possibly an AoO as you run up on me. I'll take that in exchange for a single swipe by a player.
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Well, if you're not enough versed ...to judge Core Monks, you're not enough versed to judge feats.
I'm certainly not rules saavy enough to get in the real nitty gritty of optimizing Classes and builds -- that's not fun to me.
But I damn sure am DM and Player enough to know balance and imbalance when I see it at the table (recognizing different situations can happen in a high-powered game) and I'm damn sure DM and Player enough to judge Feats on whether they're balanced or imbalanced.
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Maybe the guys who did the playtesting were actually rules guys, so they knew they were talking about. And probably they didn't test everything with "uber stats".
I'd be interested to hear from gamers who did playtest the Feats in question with typical stats.
With Dragon Style the Ability scores just aren't an issue with the Feat, but the others,...
I wonder if a typical 16 DEX makes the Feats that different. I'll also, in the following sessions of our game, count the Monk's AoOs to see if there's more than 4 each round (1 + 3 DEX mod w/ Combat Reflexes in a more traditional game.) But I betcha he's getting 3 or 4 AoOs even with his 30 DEX, same as a standard point buy would get him.
I'm thinking crane and snapping turtle style will see more use.
Now for a master of many styles that does want to charge having panther style and dragon style is going to be nice... but then again you've got to be doing something to make up for not taking full attacks.
Also in a 'normal stat' game it's a lot harder to get the 16 dex, 15 str and have a good wisdom score to do anything else.
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I'm not saying you should become a rules guy. I'm just saying that until you do become one, don't pull off big rants.
Only worse :P
Ouch!
That does hurt, Chaos Boy!
Hitting below the belt, are ya?
;)
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All joking aside, that's another really good point. But I just don't see not being an expert on Rules optimization disqualifies me from ranting.
But I should be more articulate -- I know the rules. I know the rules well. What I can't stand up to in conversation is the amazing optimizers picking apart the minutae of dozens of different features and mixing them together. Because I choose not to; it's not fun for me. I can optimize pretty well, just not like a great many (including playtesters) on the Boards, here.
No biggie -- it's about the fun after all -- besides the developers state to take what works for your game: It obviously isn't going to for your game, so that's alright. I think over all these feats are fine (especially with their high prerequisites) but hey to each their own.
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Just a reminder -- about the Ability scores -- we're not talking about one PC with both the Dragon Style and the other group of Snake, and Master, etc.
The Monk in our game got lots of Immediate Action AoOs and seemed like he was getting more turns in the fight than any of the other 7 PCs.
Meanwhile, the Player running the Monk suggested that someone else (me) take Dragon Style for charging through friendly squares -- which charging may not be the wisest or most optimized thing, but it's what the low INT Pally does, provoking all kinds of AoOs just to get a swing at the toughest guy in the room. It's character, not strategy.
With a standard point buy a Monk could go Dragon Style, with a 16 STR and not worry as much about DEX and WIS -- cuz he's fighting like a dragon.
Or he could go Snake Style and get his 16 DEX, a more obvious build, and get his regular AoO and his 3 from Combat Reflexes.
I think the only thing our High Powered game does is allow a PC (not just the Monk) get more than one strong Ability Score ability.
But a standard point buy Monk should easily have a 16 DEX at 1st level. No problem. And get Snake Style at 3rd.
Also having more than one big ability score does a lot for the monk.
Again though the paladin isn't going to see too much use out of this feat so I'm good with him having it -- after all it's costing him 2 feats and 3 skill points and then he's only getting a small portion of its use if he's not fighting unarmed.
The save throw bonuses are nice for a paladin... but he's a paladin and unlikely to fail those to begin with (I would think at least).
Gross? I will admit it's somewhat useful, but eating a slot 4 spell levels higher is a pretty big price to pay.Yep, Quicken Spell is pretty gross, too.
In addition to the feat spent for it as well.
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With a standard point buy a Monk could go Dragon Style, with a 16 STR and not worry as much about DEX and WIS -- cuz he's fighting like a dragon.
Or he could go Snake Style and get his 16 DEX, a more obvious build, and get his regular AoO and his 3 from Combat Reflexes.
I think the only thing our High Powered game does is allow a PC (not just the Monk) get more than one strong Ability Score ability.
But a standard point buy Monk should easily have a 16 DEX at 1st level. No problem. And get Snake Style at 3rd.
The thing is, at low point buy, these do far less.
Yes, a 16 STR Monk can get Dragon Style and Ferocity. That extra 1/2 strength bonus comes to... 1 damage per attack. Not exactly game breaking. It will obviously go up with belts and tomes and level stats, but at most you are looking at Greater Weapon Specialization level.
A different monk could have 16 DEX. However, that means a lower strength. At third level, you are looking at maybe +2 or +3 attack on those AoO, and hitting for 1d6+1 or 2 damage. Concentrating on Dex will get you more AoO, but they will hit for very little. Extra Str will make the hits matter, but you will have less. See? Balance.
Super high ability scores throw everything off. The -2 attack from dual wielding means a lot with a 15 point buy, as do the stat requirements. But if you are going to have 30 in everything anyway, it is going to get very strong very fast. This holds true across classes, feats, and any other option. Since it is so far outside of what the system intends, you can't reasonably expect things to stay anywhere near balanced.
I have a feeling that most feats are just fine the way they are. Once a group changes the expectations from what the designers had worked with, then the power of a feat changes along with that. This goes for most of the stuff in the game, not just feats.
Having played around with the combat style feats a bit, I can see that with a 15-20 point buy character using Pathfinder points, these feats are not overly powerful at all.
One side-note regarding the +2 to saves vs sleep, paralysis and stunning: these only apply while the character is in the appropriate style as well. So while not in combat; or when ambushed or otherwise surprised; those bonuses to saves DO NOT apply.
Next, consider that each of the style trees is quite good, depending on what you want to do with your hero. But investing into more than one style tree is a very big step. The requirements are very rough; often include additional feats - and the styles are mutually exclusive: you can only use one at a time. Unless you spend *another* feat to make the transition between the styles easier (or you play the archetype explicitly designed to be a master of many styles). Doing just two
Then ask yourself; is the defensive ability of snake style on par, better or worse than having mirror image cast on you?
Then ask yourself; if you were a character hitting people with your fists. Would you rather take Dragon Style or Weapon Specialization (assuming either was available to you)?
Improved Unarmed Strike,
Stunning Fist,
Combat Reflexes,
Snake 1,
Snake 2,
Snake 3,
Dragon 1,
Dragon 2,
Dragon 3,
Style Master
- that is a really long list of feats to go through and represents a serious investment on a character; that is likely out-damaged regardless by a pure fighter.
I'm not saying you should become a rules guy. I'm just saying that until you do become one, don't pull off big rants.
Only worse :P
Ouch!
That does hurt, Chaos Boy!
Hitting below the belt, are ya?
As a rule, I don't do that.
The fun part about being chaotic is, of course, that you can ignore rules when he doesn't feel like obeying them. :P
Well this thread looks good and done. What horrific entity should I call forth to completely derail it into the realm of silliness and sock puppets?