I recently tried running a session for my home brew campaign with some new ideas pertaining to encounter design. I got my information from this article. It is a lot to read and to sumarize the main point I took from it is that for every 20 encounters 10 of them should equal the APL, 6 should be 1-4 CR below the APL, 3 should be 1-4 CR above the APL and 1 should be 5+ above the APL.
My party is APL 7 and four members. every time I threw multiple lower level enemies at them the party completely dominated, but if I pitted them against one higher level enemy they were severely hurt. For example at one point I had the party fight 6 dire apes which would equal out to a CR of 8 if I did my numbers correctly (if not please correct me) and it was over in three rounds with very little damage done to the group. Earlier however there was a glass golem with a CR of 8 which was tearing the party up and probably would have killed one of the party members if I had not forgotten about the bleed damage for a round. Earlier that session the party faced a dire crocodile CR 9 which nearly TPKed.
One point that I noticed is initiative is a big deal. In the ape fight specifically the party got high initiative and killed two of the apes before they even got to go. Some helpful information to have would be that my party has put little to no money into increasing their AC (I think there is one ring of protection between all of them). There is a switcher hitter ranger, a unarmed monk, a Spirit of the Beast wildshape based druid, and a gunslinger 1/rogue 6. Anything that anybody could add would be great.
|
First of all, check whether they have enough loot. It sounds silly, but a party with less money per level than they should have is less likely to succeed against high-level foes than low-level foes (whose ACs don't require the PCs to have magic swords, for instance).
Another thing is that you don't seem to have an arcane spellcaster, and your divine caster seems focused on combat. And because most of these are 3/4 BAB classes, they're going to have trouble hitting high-level and high-AC enemies. And d8 classes aren't going to be able to take a lot of damage. I can see how a golem and a crocodile could really hurt them. Try putting them against high-level spellcasters instead--low ACs and more DCs than to-hit attacks.
Also, try varying the terrain. Ranger should be able to get favored terrain bonuses, let the monk use his slow fall and high jump to his advantage, make it so the druid's ability to fly or climb or swim in wild shape gives him an advantage over the enemy, give the gunslinger partial cover. You need to give the players a way to showcase their specific talents.
Hope this helps! Sorry it's long.
That was not long by my standards and very helpful too. Since the party did not have an arcane caster I have actually been doing the opposite by not pairing them up against a lot of magic, but I will give it a try. The bit about terrain is helpful, it just gets to be a lot of planning for a home brew campaign.
I agree with malebranche. I think the makeup of your party is having a major impact on what kinds of enemies they're effective against.
You don't have anyone in the party who can say, "Save or lose!" every turn, which is a solo monster's greatest weakness. Even against a Glass Golem (which is about as magic resistant an enemy as you'll find) a the level wizard could cast Acid Pit (or one of the lower level pit spells) and have an 80% chance to win the fight with a single spell.
A single spell wouldn't end the fight against 6 dire apes. In fact, in a party with Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard it's possible that one ape would rush each party member, doubling up on two, which could be a major problem for an unprepared Wizard or Sorcerer!
If you use a grid map, I have a suggestion that might help with "planning" terrain. Instead of planning it out in advance, just make yourself a set of movable terrain on paper or cardstock. They can be as pretty as you like, or just disks and blobs cut out of printer paper. When a battle begins, arrange them in whatever way seems fitting or fun. (If you want a little more "fairness through randomness" you can put a number on each terrain piece and roll a die to see what gets placed.)
This is starting to make a little more sense to me, I just found it peculiar that everywhere I look on the boards if there is one thing people can typically agree on its that due to the action economy a solo monster is not an appropriate challenge and I was having the exact opposite results. The bit about terrain is helpful and I think I will try it out. So let me go ahead and list all the roles that I think my party covers
Tanks- Druid and Ranger + their animal companions
Skill monkeys- Between the Ranger and Gunslinger/Rogue nearly all of the skills are covered the only ones lacking are social skills.
Face - Though the ranger is the self proclaimed leader, the party has the social skills of a barbarian with a combined Int and Wis score of 5, seriously lacking in the "social skills" as well
Strikers - So far the Ranger is the biggest damage dealer, in a few levels I am looking for the gunslinger/rogue to surpass him when he can get off SA. I am hoping that the druid and monk can match the ranger down the road, but it isn't looking good.
Casters - The druid isn't dedicated to casting and its a first time player, but its the best the party has. I am trying to have her focus on battlefield control and long term buffing. Also talking to the gunslinger/rogue about getting a few arcane wands, they are cheap and extremely versatile though not a substitute for an arcanist by any means.
Healing - Ranger and druid have both been using CLW wands, not much else needed.
Those are all of the *important* roles that I can think of. If anybody has anything to add or any corrections to make it would be greatly appreciated.
*healer*
|
|
Sounds like you have a party who can dish out moderate damage if they hit, or many small amounts of damage, but they don't have high to-hits or high ACs and don't deal mega damage blows. So they can deal with low AC creatures effectively but come the slug fest with a high AC creature or DR and they get beat on and can't hit it often or do enough damage in single blows to get far through DR. The healing also comes from the front liners so they can't fight and heal at the same time making them less efficient.
They are not a combat optimised party so avoid high AC and DR opponents. Also pick enemies who dish out many small amounts of damage rather than fewer large blows. Probably also avoid bleed damage as the party has no channeling cleric.
The reduced the dire ape encounter to CR 7 before the apes got to act so it is not a good comparison. Dire Apes dish out only moderate damage per round unless they get full attacks or they mob someone. Also they need to use good tactics to live up to their CR - and it is harder as a GM to manage multiple creatures effectively than it is to handle one creature.
Also they sound like a high mobility party so getting full attacks against them may be harder and the effective CR of creatures who rely on full atacks are thereby reduced.
That was very informative and added a lot of insight ZomB, thank you. I will try out some of the lower AC and DR opponents, this coming week one of my players won't be able to make it so I am taking this time to run some simulation encounters with my party. Any suggestions on which monsters I should try out?
|
|
That was very informative and added a lot of insight ZomB, thank you. I will try out some of the lower AC and DR opponents, this coming week one of my players won't be able to make it so I am taking this time to run some simulation encounters with my party. Any suggestions on which monsters I should try out?
Suggest you download the spreadsheet from the pathinder PRD and filter out blank DR.
Dragons look promising:
CR8 Young green dragon
CR9 Young Blue Dragon
CR10 Young Red Dragon
Will do, thanks again for the help.
I recently tried running a session for my home brew campaign with some new ideas pertaining to encounter design. I got my information from this article. It is a lot to read and to sumarize the main point I took from it is that for every 20 encounters 10 of them should equal the APL, 6 should be 1-4 CR below the APL, 3 should be 1-4 CR above the APL and 1 should be 5+ above the APL.
My party is APL 7 and four members. every time I threw multiple lower level enemies at them the party completely dominated, but if I pitted them against one higher level enemy they were severely hurt. For example at one point I had the party fight 6 dire apes which would equal out to a CR of 8 if I did my numbers correctly (if not please correct me) and it was over in three rounds with very little damage done to the group. Earlier however there was a glass golem with a CR of 8 which was tearing the party up and probably would have killed one of the party members if I had not forgotten about the bleed damage for a round. Earlier that session the party faced a dire crocodile CR 9 which nearly TPKed.
One point that I noticed is initiative is a big deal. In the ape fight specifically the party got high initiative and killed two of the apes before they even got to go. Some helpful information to have would be that my party has put little to no money into increasing their AC (I think there is one ring of protection between all of them). There is a switcher hitter ranger, a unarmed monk, a Spirit of the Beast wildshape based druid, and a gunslinger 1/rogue 6. Anything that anybody could add would be great.
A grappler should not have been a TPK, but if he grappled someone that character might die.
Since it was a big dumb animal a spell that forced will saves should have worked. Having a damage focused guy should have helped also, and if he could be buffed that only makes it better.
What is in the party, how well they are built, how well they play, and what you used against them all factor into the situation.
In general single monsters don't fair so well.
The party consists of:
A half orc gunslinger/rogue whose first priority is always to try and snipe with his rifle from a distance, weakest from the start, but he is starting to come along. Second most experience in pathfinder
Spirit of the Beast style half orc druid, usually takes the form of a tiger or bear and rarely throws out spells if she does its usually a fog cloud to force ranged enemies to close the gap or resist energy of some kind. Has a tiger animal companion, also died in the fight. Little experience in pathfinder
Switch hitter half elf ranger uses a greatsword and a longbow. Bow on round one (if at all) then charges into battle. Has a wolf animal companion, most experienced and most optimized of the group, strategically challenged.
Human Monk uses unarmed strike primarily and carries a few shuriken. First pen and paper rpg, but very creative and original.
The party does have some bad strategy but they are improving. They play well together and all have above average builds (even the multiclass imo).