Give the dragon a mate. Seriously. Single enemy encounters are almost never a good idea. Give the dragon some younger dragon offspring, or some minions, or some ice golem guards, anything. Just dont leave the dragon alone in an enclosed space against SIX pcs. Baring act of dice gods, this will be a disappointing fight. You have an APL 8 party of 6 players. Thats pretty much APL 10 vs a single CR 11 monster. They will crush this thing with the action economy even if they arent particularly optimized characters.
If i could have a signature on these boards it would include 'Single monster [boss] encounters are never a good idea, if you want a fight to matter, put more then one monster in there.'
It doesn't True Strike with claw, it does it with a Power Attacking Vital Strike on it's bite.
Spam its fog cloud ability - the 20% miss chance, will help it against the PCs while not affecting its breath weapon. The party has line of sight blocked while the dragon's senses tell it exactly where the party is. Maybe swap out one of its feats for Quicken Spelllike Ability so it can throw out fog clouds every round. You really want to give it as many extra actions as it can to overcome the party's outnumbering it 6-1
Perhaps let it bull rush some of the players off a cliff or into a pit, if the local terrain allows it. Improved Bull Rush would be cool but requires swapping out another feat.
Cleave would be a nice feat -- true strike/power attack, then bite two players. Again, action economy. Definitely swap out weapon focus, it won't matter with true strike.
Consider swapping out shield for a more battlefield controlling spell, like grease.
In an ice cavern the dragon can use its ice walking ability to cling to the walls and ceiling, maybe making it harder for the melee PCs to approach it,and perhaps allowing it to use its reach to bite the PCs while staying out of their reach on the wall. Also from the ceiling it's breath weapon can cover the maximum ground area at the far end of its cone, and if it hides in the fog, then breathes, then moves, the PCs won't necessarily know where to aim their first counterattacks.
If the dragon cannot fly, have you considered using the terrain to its advantage in other ways? They have "snow shape," which means the battlefield would be at their beck and call given a little time to work. The dragon could turn the area into a maze of corridors and pits, then fill the entire thing with a bunch of castings of "fog cloud." Ghost Sounds and Dancing lights could be used to distract/separate/freak out the party. If you want to be really mean, make the entire area icy terrain. The dragon has icewalking, but the party will be needing to make constant acrobatics checks or fall on their faces.
Also, while the economy of action is on the side of the players, the dragon is not a slouch. Its six attacks can rip a level 8 character to shreds. And don't forgot to include power attack! It basically doubles the damage output. 50hp isn't much when the first bite deals 2d6+24, and there are 5 attacks still to go.
If you want to be epicly mean, have the dragon use its abilities to sneak behind the party and take out the cleric and sorcerer first. You want memorable? How about a dragon bursting through a snow wall and eating all your artillery while you stumble around in ice and fog?
Give the dragon a mate. Seriously. Single enemy encounters are almost never a good idea. Give the dragon some younger dragon offspring, or some minions, or some ice golem guards, anything. Just dont leave the dragon alone in an enclosed space against SIX pcs. Baring act of dice gods, this will be a disappointing fight. You have an APL 8 party of 6 players. Thats pretty much APL 10 vs a single CR 11 monster. They will crush this thing with the action economy even if they arent particularly optimized characters.
If i could have a signature on these boards it would include 'Single monster [boss] encounters are never a good idea, if you want a fight to matter, put more then one monster in there.'
^^^This^^^
Dear lord, this.
Seriously this should be stamped on every DM guide there is.
I know it sounds like a good idea to have the players vs a dragon. it is not.
Minions, some kind of minion.
They will crush this thing with the action economy even if they arent particularly optimized characters.
Seconded, the fact that they are getting 6 turns for the dragon's one REALLY makes it easy for the players.
About half a dozen 4rd level kobold warriors worshiping it should make it more challenging.
I ran a similar encounter and in 3 rounds the party had beaten the dragon. especially with the paladin in the party at level 8 no less, that dragon will drop faster than my GPA after i started playing dnd.
Have the dragon use terrain to its advantage. It has reach, right? Caverns tend to be jagged places full of ledges and pits. Makes for difficult terrain in most cases. Have the dragon hop from ledge to ledge using its reach advantage (and spells) and staying away from the PC's who struggle to maneuver across the broken, icy ground.
Plenty of other good ideas posted already, too, but wanted to mention that the dragon should use its environment wisely.
As a quick aside, I ran a CR 8 dragon against a party of 6 5th-level PC's (APL 6) and came within a hair's breadth of it being a TPK. Being able to soften up the PC's as they approach within fighting range is nice. Now you have a paladin in your group and I did not, so that's a point in your PCs' favor. Good luck!
Have you considered adding the Advanced simple template? +4 to all abilities will give you +26 hp and a couple extra level 1 spells/day in addition to the obvious stuff like +2 hit/damage.
Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less).
I also like the idea of it hiding on the ceiling and opening with a full attack on a squishy at the rear of the party (preferably the cleric... it does have INT 12 / 16 with Advanced so it's plenty smart enough to kill the healer first).
I have little to add, other than to agree about making the whole place "difficult terrain" so the PCs have to exhaust a lot of movement just to get around. It could either be slick ice, or covered in big chunks of ice. Has he had time to befriend a couple of particularly ill-tempered Yeti? (Yetis? Yetai?)
I understand he has no loot because of what's happened in the story, but I'd be pissed if I helped kill a dragon and he didn't have a hoard anywhere. Any chance he has a hoard elsewhere and the PCs could learn of its location?
Any way he could prepare any type of "trap"? Maybe a thin layer of ice over a chasm or a pit?
Also, even though the party has a wand of Gust of Wind, any round in which a PC has to use it is pretty much an otherwise wasted round for that PC. (Isn't it a Standard Action to use a wand? I forget). When you start weighing economy of action, this could be a factor.
I ran a very similar fight once.
One thing I found--once combat began, it was hard for me to remember to apply the effects of fog cloud in the area (some of which were up before the party got to his cavern). This was a stupid (but easy) thing for me to forget because it helps block movement and line of sight for the party, which is essential to make the fight challenging, especially since you're limiting its ability to fly. Make sure you have the effects of fog cloud written out clearly where you can reference it (and the party can too) and take the time to note where the area of effect is on the battlemap clearly. And the fight WAS too easy because I forgot to do this (also because I let the paladin get an AOO when I shouldn't have, but that's another story).
I agree with the suggestions to be clever with terrain, especially since he's got ice shape. Make the ground slippery, make the terrain shaped in ways that it will be hard to flank him even if he ends up on the ground.
Kolokotroni's right that single enemy boss fights are weighted in the party's favor. Even a few very weak enemies alongside (little wyrmlings or ice mephits or something) can help improve the challenge and give you more prep time. The weak enemies should be easy to blow through--they should be about being speed bumps and making it harder for the party to get into an ideal tactical position to beat the dragon.
If you DO really want to keep it to a single monster, then don't limit the dragon's ability to fly too much, he's going to need that advantage.
Oh, yeah. If he's smart he will have left himself an escape route. If it starts looking like it is going to be an easy victory, have him escape. (Maybe he could burst through the ceiling into the open sky (or huge cavern?) above. Very cinematic. Let him get away and lick his wounds and plot a rematch with the PCs to happen on *his own* terms! (Players hate that! In a good way, I think). I like the occasional recurring bad guy. It is nice to have a nemesis. When they finally do track him back to his treasure-laden hoard, the victory will be all the sweeter!
ETA: Oh! And the PCs have to make some difficult reflex saves to avoid some big ass falling boulders of ice and rock---just for funsies.
The dragon can effectively swim through the ice, beneath the feet of the PCs. And there is no reason why he doesn't just stay there for a minute or two (10-20 rounds). He can buff whilst hidden as the PCs buffs wear off. Think of the tension as you go through a round or two with the dragon not appearing back out of the ice... Or maybe it simply remains hidden as the breath weapon recharges. Perhaps it leaves a small hole send its spells through.
And even if the PCs can work out where it is, can they do anything about it? If they can, that's cool - they'll feel very clever. Let them use up resources doing so. If not, let the tension build. Continue to track rounds. The PCs might split up to avoid another breath weapon attack. Spring up behind one and bite/grapple/drag beneath the ice. (Okay, that might be too evil, just the bite or breath if you can hit more than one.)
And don't forget Frightful Presence. Perhaps one PC will roll low enough... Will save DC 18.
Obviously, your biggest concern is that the dragon lose its 172 hp in one or two turns (which given the party, might very well happen if they get the opportunity to make full attacks).
Since the dragon is trying to escape, and isn't protection anything of interest to itself, then it really shouldn't be interested in risking it's own life if it can be avoided.
I think Oberon's suggestion of making use of burrow is a great way to go. As it hides in the ice, the players need to think outside of plain attacking the monster in front of them, and the tension is prolonged.
I would consider making a slight change to it's flyby feat, allowing it to be used with the burrow ability. Suddenly you will have the dragon swimming through the ice, jumping up and either cast a spell/make an attack/use breath weapon and then return to it's icy haven all in it's own turn. With this strategy, the players have to start thinking in readied actions, which will remove those harmful full-attacks.
Apart from this, the Ice Shape ability can really be your friend in making the encounter interesting. Being able to shape 25 cubic feat of ice, will allow it to change the battlefield quite a bit. And if you use it from beneath the ground, the dragon can open up tunnels beneath one of the characters to get a one-on-one fight. This might lead to dramatic situations where the characters have to jump through holes in the ice to help their comrades.
I would consider making a slight change to it's flyby feat, allowing it to be used with the burrow ability. Suddenly you will have the dragon swimming through the ice, jumping up and either cast a spell/make an attack/use breath weapon and then return to it's icy haven all in it's own turn. With this strategy, the players have to start thinking in readied actions, which will remove those harmful full-attacks.
Spring Attack will do that nicely. Personally, I would swap-out Improved Initiative for Spring Attack.
Apart from this, the Ice Shape ability can really be your friend in making the encounter interesting. Being able to shape 25 cubic feat of ice, will allow it to change the battlefield quite a bit. And if you use it from beneath the ground, the dragon can open up tunnels beneath one of the characters to get a one-on-one fight. This might lead to dramatic situations where the characters have to jump through holes in the ice to help their comrades.
Totally awesome idea!
Remember that the dragons create their lairs in specific areas because it is an area where they have the absolute advantage, and this idea of opening up a tunnel for a one-on-one slaughter of a PC is a perfect example of why.
I am quite interested in this thread, and I've thought about it a lot, because my players are about to face a white dragon (or two or more). Trouble is, we have so many campaigns going, and I've been busy with RL, that my campaign has been paused for the moment. Still, that means more time for planning.
Just wanted to dot this; some very awesome advice.
Here are some thoughts:
First, your dragon can grapple. Grappling can be very nasty, especially if you grapple key party members. You can all but shut them down entirely. If I'm not mistaken, attacks aimed at a creature in a grapple have a chance to hit whatever they're grappling as well, causing for extra mayhem.
If your monster has the space, one of the nastiest things you can do is grapple someone and fly away with them. You can really test your party's preparedness by dropping people everywhere! This is a place where those minions you ought to have will come in handy ^_~. They can provide AoO against any pesky spallcasters that try to use Feather Fall to save your poor victim's life. It's really quite humorous. And let's not forget that you can always use your Vital Strike / Bite attack. While several hundred feet in the air. It's really quite wonderful.
Time is not on your dragon's side, especially if that Sorcerer has fire spells. Get some source of Resist Fire, if possible, for Scorching Rays. Two empowered Scorching Rays pretty much ends the battle.
Avoid using Flyby Attack or casting True Strike (even pre-combat, breath is better starter) because that won't contend with the damage the ranged attackers can do and the Cleric can heal nearly as fast.
Your main goal is for it to full attack before the PCs, and have that wounded PC reconsider staying around to full attack back. With Power Attack, it should be able to dish out enough damage to ruin somebody's day. Anybody losing half their h.p. in one round MUST reconsider.
Vital Strike isn't enough, and should only be used when he's forced to a single attack option AND has no breath to use.
If you can make it so it's getting full attacks while denying/limiting PC full attacks, then you're in business. Having it use its reach from up high is a good way to do that.
Time casting 'Fly' is time not spamming fire damage or using Gust on the Fog Clouds.
Odds are, with so many PC's they will fear the amount of AoE damage of the breath weapon and charge in, or at least separate. So put some lightly covered pits in place. CR 1 or 2 will do. Maybe with lids. :)
And maybe a CR 8 cave-in that splits the party/hits the middle. If you want some death.
For minions, it can take Leadership and keep the same CR. A counterspeller/wall-caster would do wonders for it.
(Ready action, cast 'Wall of Ice' when opponent begins casting. Oops, only the back lines got hit by Haste (or Fireball) :).)
Fog Clouds to block line-of-sight from archer/casters. (Don't bank on the miss chance, it's too small.) If it qualifies, maybe swap a feat for Quicken Spell-Like Ability. (I'm working off of memory, so unsure.)
Cave-in can do same, w/ line-of-effect as well.
Icy floors: But not so icy until in the dragon's lair (or they'll precast Fly). This will kill the 5' steps of PCs.
Dragon Full Attack, 5' step back. PC uses 10' of movement to go 5' feet (provoking AoO), gets single attack. Repeat.
What's horrible (a.k.a. great) about this is it's hard for the Cleric to get to wounded PCs.
So dragon best case scenario:
Pre-cast: Buffs & Fog Clouds completely in unseen area. (Wide, wending corridors, with pits scattered about.)
Surprise Round: Breath & Quickened Fog Cloud to block line-of-sight to rear characters. Distance from enemy, 10' (or 15' if they have reach). Fog Cloud spills out of broken wall as well.
Round 1: PCs close across icy terrain (or it delays until PCs close) w/ single attacks (taking AoO). Dragon Full Attacks (another Fog Cloud if last one Gusted away.) 5' step back, deeper into Fog.
Round 2: Injured PC withdraws to Cleric (or Lays Hands on self). Sorcerer still has to Gust. Other melee PC gets mauled (or brave PC gets to edge of death). Dragon steps 5' back again. (Even with Gusts, he'll eventually get back into an un-Gusted Fog Cloud, spending another round of the sorcerer). Cleric occupied healing, not casting Flame Strike or buffs.
Round 3: Healed PC hurries back to help ally, falls in pit when attempting to flank. Fear ensues...
Repeat, until attrition kills dragon, or dragon gets upper hand.
PC's may play coy, so blast with breath and burrow, aiming to come up under non-melee PC on next round (especially if PC separated from group, and perhaps using last saved Fog Cloud so PCs don't see the grappling pain unfold...just hear the screams...)
Or, if somebody's in a pit, come out alongside them, mano y dragono.
Most every dragon comes with intelligent use of terrain worked into their MO, even the dumb White Dragons. Lose any guilt over 'unfair terrain' and have at it. It's unlikely the dragon will win, but it should be a blast and quite memorable.
JMK
Point...
The dragon could be tipped off by the presence of a paladin is the group, which the Fanglord doesn´t have in his retinue. On way or the other, the paladin should be the prime target, i assume that an "old hand" in the business will recognize one, when it sees one.
PS: and a dwarven cleric
Heres a scenario:
Pre-battle, the dragon makes a pit filled w/icy brine covered with a thin layer of ice.
Round 1: dragon drops whoever stands on the pit into the drink.
So far it just looks like a trap
Round 2: Seal the pit with ice shape, trapped ones are drowning and sealed separately from battlefield.
Okay- a magic trap
Round 3: Dragon opens w/ ice breath, pulling the survivors into a battle and away from a rescue attempt.
Or, more simply: Use Ice shape to entomb PCs without exposing the dragon to open air.
The problem here is, it means the clever dragon can avoid the whole encounter entirely! I didn't realize that.
That don't need to be a problem. As I read your setup, the dragon is pretty much desperate to avoid be captured by Fanglord. This means it need the group no matter what. It might even prefer being killed by someone else, so the bad guy don't eat his heart (and probably soul, which would stop him from going to draconic afterlife).
If they are friendly, then all is well for the dragon as he got a possible way out.
If they aren't the helping kind, then the dragon might use them anyway. I have visions of the dragon picking up one of the characters and throwing him within range of the ghost. If they start a fight with the ghost, he can just retreat until they solved his problem.
As for your specific dragon, given that he has been subjected to poisenous fumes for some time, you might want to custimize it in that theme.
I might really make the players ask questions if the breath weapon suddenly is poison gas or acid instead of the standard cold breath of a white dragon.
While it shouldn't make him unable to fight, you might have him hallucinating, or just making random premonitions about the characters.
Perhaps the dragon really thinks it needs a hoard, so it attacks the PCs hoping to use their wealth to be the foundation of its new hoard. Maybe it knows that the Fanglord is still a few minutes away so it has time -- if it wins, it gets a new hoard, if it loses, at least the Fanglord didn't get it.
But that is stretching it. Honestly, I think a dragon in this situation would likely just run away real fast... That gives it its life, after all.
Give the dragon a mate. Seriously. Single enemy encounters are almost never a good idea. Give the dragon some younger dragon offspring, or some minions, or some ice golem guards, anything. Just dont leave the dragon alone in an enclosed space against SIX pcs. Baring act of dice gods, this will be a disappointing fight. You have an APL 8 party of 6 players. Thats pretty much APL 10 vs a single CR 11 monster. They will crush this thing with the action economy even if they arent particularly optimized characters.
If i could have a signature on these boards it would include 'Single monster [boss] encounters are never a good idea, if you want a fight to matter, put more then one monster in there.'
4th'd or whatever. Our level 16 RoTRL party killed an Ice Linnorm in a surprise round, but nearly got murdered by 3 Juvenile Blue Dragons basically because there where 3 of them and they used tactics and terrain to their advantage. Presenting a smart creature as a meat popsicle for your PC's will lead to ... well... meat popsicles
For the situation you've described, I'd play up three things:
1: The dragon's oracular abilities. It knows the Fanglord is out to kill it, and has minions in the area. It knows there's a group of adventurers showing up that might kill it or might save it. It knows random bits of possible future that are wholly irrelevant to the current situation, but may occasionally be distracting to it or others. And it will just keep ranting about whatever happens to come to its attention - whether that's complaining about the fanglord, or wondering why this group of minions is so much tougher than the previous ones, or complaining that the "heroes" it foresaw ought to be here by now, or muttering about the price of silk in some port halfway around the world...
2: The damage the dragon has taken from being exposed to these poisonous vapors. Most importantly, I'd make it blind (or mostly blind) - and obviously so, as well as looking thin and sickly. Give it the blindfight feat, and between that and its natural blindsense, and it should function just fine in combat without its vision (or just upgrade it to have blindsight instead; oracular abilities are a good excuse for that sort of thing anyway). But this gives an explanation for why it thinks the PCs are just more random minions; have the dragon act surprised when they don't die from a single breath weapon attack. When it starts losing, have it just burrow down & not come back up, while telling the PCs that they're fools, the coming heroes will kill them all before the fanglord even gets there...
3: Terrain & mobility. Play up icewalking and the burrow speed. Maybe have it burrow into a wall or ceiling. Never have it hold still for a fighter to full attack; always give it some degree of cover from being halfway burrowed into the ice; that sort of thing.
Dragons are tricky. It's very easy to simply wipe out the party if they stand and fight. If a dragon uses flight (particularly the hover mechanic) and their long reach with a high-damage bite (Power Attack + Vital Strike), they can quickly drain a party without really getting into melee.
A truly smart dragon will avoid melee until one of two things happens:
* The dragon is about to die and has absolutely no way to escape, so it's a last ditch attempt to kill their enemies. This is highly unlikely unless the party greatly prepares for the dragon, basically outsmarts it, or the dragon is limited/hindered (as in the scenario the OP provided).
* It's mop-up time. The strong enemies are dead and the ones weakest to melee are left. (Not a good thing for your party to see.)
Most of the time the dragon will escape to fight another day. They have too many escape mechanisms and defend themselves too well.
I personally hate the dragon mate/minions approach. A dragon is meant to be an encounter all by itself. I'm too old school to add many dragon minions. Most dragons (particularly the reds) feel they don't need to hide behind an army of anything. . . they *ARE* an army. But if you must do minions, immunity to cold should be a primary concern. Secondary concern is liberal dispel magic use.
In general, yes, I would rethink the restrictions you've put on the dragon. You *CAN* do what you want here, but I'd lower the CR. A "trapped" dragon is pretty weak without their standard escape mechanisms.
But as meabolex notes, a dragon should be an encounter all by itself. A dragon should be a memorable boss, alone, without needing a mate or a bunch of minions. If 3.x/PFRPG does not support this very well, then that's a deep hardwired flaw in 3.x/PFRPG.
It isnt a hardwired flaw, it is an example of what cannot be done without dissociative mechanics. If you have a 6 v 1 situation, either the one gets overwhelmed, or the one is too much of a threat to any one of the 6 to be reasonable.
The only way to pull this off is by having a different set of rules for the 1 then the 6. The rules lose their grounding in the game world when you do stuff like that. This isnt a design flaw, it is a failure of our own perceptions to understand that something like this cannot be done without fundamentally disconnecting the game rules from the game world.
You could argue that dragons are special, and they have always been solo monsters, but they have also always been PC killers, you can always make the dragon stronger with templates up the wazoo so that it isnt overwhelmed, but then it is going to have a damn good chance of wiping your party.
There is literally no way to do this unless you have a 'solo monster' set of rules that are added to a monster ONLY if it is alone. So the dragon gets more actions, and maybe an advantage against save or lose effects (or even immunity), maybe more hitpoints or what have you. But then, in 5 more levels, the same dragon cant have those abilities if they are not meant to be a solo encounter. So a mature white dragon follows different rules when its by itself then if it is among its family. You cant build a coherent system like that.
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If you let it have a couple of scrolls of summon monster V then it can summon minions while hiding behind the ice wall. It can have a little peephole up high to let it see where to drop the monsters. Then after it uses the scrolls it busts through the wall.
Also a mature dragon has access to third level spells. Haste is a wonderful thing and so is displacement and mage armor and other stuff.
Alternately you could just let it act twice a round with the new Act Twice a Round Template someone else on the boards made up. The template lets it act twice a round.
About to run my first dragon v. PCs combat. Dragon is a Mature Adult White, CR 11. APL is 8 but there are 6 PCs, so this shouldn't be terribly hard.Dragon description is here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- white/white-dragon-mature-adult
Encounter setup is a large underground ice cavern where the dragon is lurking behind a false wall, a thin scrim of ice. The dragon is a recently escaped prisoner (long story). It has no magic items or allies and only limited room to fly. On the plus side, it knows the PCs are coming. So it will have rounds to buff and will get a surprise round against any PCs who don't make a DC 35 Perception check.
Party is barb, paladin, sorceror, dwarf cleric, shadowdancer, zen archer monk. So they've got pretty much all roles covered -- the paladin and barb dish out melee damage, the sorceror and cleric throw spells, the archer flurries a bunch of magic arrows, and the shadowdancer hangs around looking cool.
-- It does look like this will be over pretty quickly. The dragon can cast Shield (AC 34) and True Strike (on one claw attack, so it can crank up its Power Attack), and maybe cast Fog Cloud, but that's it for buffs. AC 34 and SR 22 should keep it alive for a few rounds, but the problem is, it just doesn't do that much damage. One breath weapon -> average 35 points of cold, save for 1/2, 1d4 rounds to recharge; everyone has at least 50 hp and the cleric can heal those who fail their saves. (Average 26 points with a Cure Serious, or average 14 to everyone with a burst heal.) The encounter is in a large ice cavern with limited space to fly, and anyway the party sorceror can spam fly spells. With 6 to 1 odds the economy of action is really weighted against the poor dragon.
N.B., this is a pretty straightforward combat -- I *KNOW* that I'm already nerfing the dragon a bit by not giving it magic items, etc. The dragon was a prisoner, something just wiped out its captors, and it's trying to escape. It thinks the PCs...
As a person who has recently run not one but two dragon fights, and have just prepared to run two more dragon fights, I have to tell you that with an APL of 8 and six players, a CR 11 is an EASY fight. If you want to make this more of a challenge, you will need to increase the CR, to roughly that of an OLD White Dragon. With this increase the dragon will acquire some beneficial abilities to better challenge the party. First, take advantage of it's special abilities. Set the freezing fog in front of the players first round forcing them through it slowly and taking damage with limiting vision, have the dragon on the other side as they exit and breathe, then HOVER just off the ground producing the 60' blinding zone against the players, then just move around taking greater improved vital strikes on one of the fighter types damaging him enough to retreat for heals, but, oh yeah, no one can see! then it is just a matter of picking and choosing whom to do a fly-by attack on, land, then another greater improved vital strike. move into a spot for a full round (preferably on the cleric) attacks (claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail slap)and watch the faces of your players as they move to pick up their jaws from the ground as the dragon just whipped them up. Once they regroup, then (if you don't want to kill them) take it easy as they begin to move in and attack.
that is how I would run it, it should take about 12 rounds to fully surprise the party and allow them to get over the shock.
If you let it have a couple of scrolls of summon monster V then it can summon minions while hiding behind the ice wall. It can have a little peephole up high to let it see where to drop the monsters. Then after it uses the scrolls it busts through the wall.
Also a mature dragon has access to third level spells. Haste is a wonderful thing and so is displacement and mage armor and other stuff.
Alternately you could just let it act twice a round with the new Act Twice a Round Template someone else on the boards made up. The template lets it act twice a round.
I cant find that template, can anyone link it?
I didn't read through all of this but have you considered bumping the dragon's cr by 2? It would increase the age of the beast, I don't know if that is an issue. I can't remember the post on the boards but someone had mentioned the dragons are about 2 cr less in Pathfinder. I know I would bump is up for my group as they are beasts themselves. I do also like the advice with terrain and minions in here.
Good luck!
SGH
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From d20 radio.
On the subject of flying dragons:
Flying dragons are boring, and far less scary. Your flying dragon just needs to roll a single 1 and they are dead (Any immobilizing effect ruins their day as the party surrounds and begins the stomping.) There are a myriad number of ways to bring down a size huge creature.
Then you hit an ancient white dragon like mine... in its lair.
A white dragon's lair is a hollowed out icy mountain (Read: Glacier). Consider that, now consider that they can ice shape and wall of ice at will. So all the floors are difficult terrain. Consider that they know the layout of their ICY MAZE OF MIRROR WALLS. Now consider they have Dimension door. Consider their icy maze in conjunction with teleportation. Now consider you should actually USE the dragon's ridiculous wealth (remember, dragons are generally by definition high fantasy and thus have SIX TIMES standard wealth for that CR, putting them in the realm of player wealth.)
Now consider you're working with an ice monster. There's this spell called simulacrum. It gives you a big dragon looking target that shouts SMITE ME. Paladins hate this trick. Then you move into the mega-size flyby room and let them burn all their tricks to stop it from flying.
Oh and if you ever get in trouble, you can summon a freaking blizzard and just have better-than-invisibility... once every 1d4 rounds. (Note that blizzards are windstorms and thus make ranged attacks impossible within their boundaries. And you have snow vision.)
Right before death, you defensively D-Door to the lair under your lair because WE NEED TO GO DEEPER. Oh, and because this lair is a maze with elixirs of heal and potions of restoration hidden in the walls where only your dragon knows where they are. And now we get to the part where the white dragon is scary.
White dragons have a burrow speed, and a stealth score of +16. You'll never see it coming when its head pops out of the wall and it starts breaking everything. It has a 15 ft reach, in a maze of mirrors, and it can break through walls at 20ft per move action... and then immediately fill that space with a wall of ice. Oh, and you can come from the ceiling and the floor. Players don't have z axis because battlemats don't usually have them. Disabuse them of this notion.
Lairs are SO much scarier than derping about in the air.
The above is how you run a dragon. It's an encounter in an encounter in an encounter. You play defensively, because you're a dragon and you can bide your time. Your powers recharge. You don't have weapons/armor they can sunder. And when you've finally played cat and mouse for 20 rounds, and the players have had their strength whittled down to nothing and had a GRAND time trying to not die... you remind them why dragons are scary in enclosed spaces, and wall them into a star wars garbage disposal style room (Icing into the room every round growing in the walls.) They either teleport away, or you break through the final wall and show them why breath weapons are scary when they're coming through a 2x2 ft opening in the ice (Ice shape) and entering a perfectly conical room.
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More D20 Radio from Steel Wind, (take the Ancient part down a few notches)
If you like the flying dragons....
An Ancient White Drake?
The thing has, by default, invisibility, true strike, Flyby Attack, Greater Vital Strike AND Improved Sunder. Base Damage of 2d8+16 on the bite. With Greater Vital Strike, that's 8d8+16 on the bite. And unlike with a charge, you can use a Flyby Attack and Greater Vital Strike in the same round. With a CMB of +34 and True Strike? It literally can't fail to sunder unless it rolls a 1. Average damage to the weapon is 52 points. SNAP
There are VERY few weapons in the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game that an Ancient White Drake cannot sunder to the destroyed condition in one shot -- and NOTHING IN THE GAME will survive a second sunder attack. A +4 Enhancement Bonus sword might survive the first sunder attempt. +3 enhancement bonus sword or less is auto *destroyed* on the first bite. (From surprise no less). With Flyby Attack, it's a matter of spooking the party (so they draw weapons), cast true strike (just to be sure), fly in from invisible MOVE 100 Feet - Vital Strike with a Bite to Sunder Most Powerful Weapon in the Party with a +54 to the CMB (insta win) (Watch weapon shatter to smitherenes in its icy maw) MOVE 100 Ft. *Laugh maniacally.*
In all probability, your tank just lost his +3 Kick Ass Flaming Bane Weapon of Doom on the surprise round. No save.
Your Barbarian's kick ass GreatAxe is similarly a Dragon hors d'oeuvre. I wouldn't hold back on doing it either. It's a DRAGON. There are no stops that are unfairly pulled with a dragon -- especially an ancient Drake.
Do a wingover to spook party into buffing up and then FLY AWAY at Mach for a few minutes. C'mon back in now that the buffs have died down and pick off another shiny weapon. Or just LEAVE. Try the heroes again in a few hours when they have let their guard down. The Dragon can be patient.
You might have a chance inside in its cave -- but where it can fly? Not looking good. A 12th level party can unleash hell if the dragon stick around and lands -- but it shouldn't be sticking around until it feels the time is right to lay down the smack. Landing early and going toe-to-toe is for idiots. It's Ancient. It didn't get to BE Ancient by being an idiot.
Nice!
(this thread has me wanting to run some dragons :)
Nice!
(this thread has me wanting to run some dragons :)
+1
It isnt a hardwired flaw, it is an example of what cannot be done without dissociative mechanics. If you have a 6 v 1 situation, either the one gets overwhelmed, or the one is too much of a threat to any one of the 6 to be reasonable.
But as meabolex notes, a dragon should be an encounter all by itself. A dragon should be a memorable boss, alone, without needing a mate or a bunch of minions. If 3.x/PFRPG does not support this very well, then that's a deep hardwired flaw in 3.x/PFRPG.
Depends on your definition of reasonable. If reasonable is "the party must have a coherent plan, execute it well, and have a little bit of luck", then sure it's reasonable. If reasonable is "walk in and smash the bad guy without a thought", then yeah, dragons can be pretty unreasonable as a single monster q:
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One little known feature of the hover feat:
If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).
Now, if I was a dragon who could hover I would make darn sure my lair had a bunch of loose debris around (all those coins lying around should probably work right?). Total concealment at 25 feet that can not be dispelled and has no real action cost is a pretty handy defensive ability. However, I almost never see anyone making use of this as most people assume that Hover, you know, just lets you hover.
And yes, I agree with the above suggestions that minions are key.