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Im just gonna say Rule 0 this and leave the FAQ to the RAW rule-lawyers.
so have fun everybody
You go ahead and Rule 0 out several interesting possible characters. I prefer being as lenient as I can be without increasing power. And trust me, this ruling does not allow any note-worthy power increase.
In fact, in my mind, it's just as much as "keep it simple" rule as anything. You have two styles: Normal and TWFing. Declare which you use, then use its rules. Done. No need to determine what does and doesn't count as two-weapon fighting mid-full-round with that.
ok 1st: I didnt say whether or not i was gonna rule with or against it. I was actually gonna let my players give arguments to what they believed it should be and see they can give good arguements.
P.S. I am lenient on those cases as my buddies lvl 1 wizard with a bonded wand of magic missile can attest to.2nd: if i do go the way i said how am I ruling out several possible characters?
3rd: Before I posted that I talked to my group and they read this forum and a lot agreed with me especially the 3 that will at some point make TWF characters. In fact they like it my way as it makes it more challenging.
EDIT: It is a Wand of Evocation(or what ever school Magic Missile belongs to) that has 100 charges that can be used to cast any level 1+ spell from that school at a cost of charges equal to the spells level.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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On the whole greatsword/dagger TWF thing:
Keep in mind that the GM is - even outside of "Rule 0" - the final arbiter of how many free actions you can take in a turn. Release, quickdraw, grab, release, quickdraw and grab is a lot of free actions in a turn.
So although any given part of it is legal, the whole package is getting big enough that the GM would be well within the rules to put the brakes on.
On the whole greatsword/dagger TWF thing:
Keep in mind that the GM is - even outside of "Rule 0" - the final arbiter of how many free actions you can take in a turn. Release, quickdraw, grab, release, quickdraw and grab is a lot of free actions in a turn.
So although any given part of it is legal, the whole package is getting big enough that the GM would be well within the rules to put the brakes on.
We do know you can use Quick Draw to draw as many weapons as you have attacks because it mentions using it with thrown weapons.
Other than that, my ruling is definitely a house rule since there isn't a specific rule that disallows the attacks. So long as something isn't game breaking, I'm all for supporting coolness.
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On the whole greatsword/dagger TWF thing:
Keep in mind that the GM is - even outside of "Rule 0" - the final arbiter of how many free actions you can take in a turn. Release, quickdraw, grab, release, quickdraw and grab is a lot of free actions in a turn.
So although any given part of it is legal, the whole package is getting big enough that the GM would be well within the rules to put the brakes on.
We do know you can use Quick Draw to draw as many weapons as you have attacks because it mentions using it with thrown weapons.
Other than that, my ruling is definitely a house rule since there isn't a specific rule that disallows the attacks. So long as something isn't game breaking, I'm all for supporting coolness.
I say you could as long as it was different BAB levels. though I dont remember where exactly I read you can only take 1 or 2 free actions in a row.
If it is 1 then the draw-&-throw attack is viable but not the situation stated. If it is 2 then the situation is viable as the attack, release(F), draw(F), attack, grab(F), attack, etc.
I say you could as long as it was different BAB levels. though I dont remember where exactly I read you can only take 1 or 2 free actions in a row.
If it is 1 then the draw-&-throw attack is viable but not the situation stated. If it is 2 then the situation is viable as the attack, release(F), draw(F), attack, grab(F), attack, etc.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
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I say you could as long as it was different BAB levels. though I dont remember where exactly I read you can only take 1 or 2 free actions in a row.
If it is 1 then the draw-&-throw attack is viable but not the situation stated. If it is 2 then the situation is viable as the attack, release(F), draw(F), attack, grab(F), attack, etc.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
I think limiting the free action for switching handedness when you should be mid-swing on the relevant weapon is a perfectly reasonable limitation that falls under that last sentence.
I think limiting the free action for switching handedness when you should be mid-swing on the relevant weapon is a perfectly reasonable limitation that falls under that last sentence.
I say you could as long as it was different BAB levels. though I dont remember where exactly I read you can only take 1 or 2 free actions in a row.
If it is 1 then the draw-&-throw attack is viable but not the situation stated. If it is 2 then the situation is viable as the attack, release(F), draw(F), attack, grab(F), attack, etc.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
In the game you effectively ambidextrous. The weapon itself is not changing hands. You are only changing which one you want to attack with. It is not like the player is helping himself. He would be better off dropping the flavor and two-handing a weapon.
Now here's a crazy question: Do you have to be wielding two weapons at the start of the full attack action in order to use TWF? Can I start with a two-handed greatsword, make two iterative attacks with the appropriate penalties, then drop the sword, quick draw a dagger with my 'off-hand', and throw it as an off-handed attack? What if it was a double-weapon instead, or a one-handed weapon with the other hand free?
Yeah, those are rather edge cases- I would rule against allowing the two-handed, but for the double-weapon drop-and-throw. I just can't find a consistent justification for why I would call those differently.
I would say that if you declare that you are going to be using the two-weapon fighting rules, then how you go about that is up to you so long as you have a primary and off-hand attack.
So in your example, you could attack with the greatsword for your "primary" attack and throw the dagger as your "off-hand" attack. Remember that your attacks need to go from highest to lowest. So you would attack with your greatsword, throw your dagger, then if you have any remaining attacks you would use your greatsword. If you have extra off-hand attacks, you would simply alternate between the greatsword and throwing your daggers. You will need quick draw to pull this off. You also shouldn't have to drop your greatsword. You can carry it with one hand, but you need two to wield it.
This is how I see the attack going (let's give you a +11 BAB and improved two-weapon fighting):
+9 Greatsword (release 1 hand as free action)
+9 throw dagger (quick draw)
+4 Greatsword (grab, attack, then release 1 hand as free action)
+4 throw dagger (quick draw)
-1 Greatsword (grab, attack)Your dagger would deal 1/2 Strength and your Greatsword would deal 1.5 Strength. And remember that you can take a 5-foot step in there too.
I make it as:
+9 Greatsword (release 1 hand as free action)
+9 throw dagger (quick draw)
+4 throw dagger (quick draw)
+4 Greatsword (grab, attack)
-1 Greatsword (grab, attack)
Which would still be highest-to-lowest, but without quite so much swapping back and forth.
My final decision, supported by the 'reasonable limit' on free actions, is that it is impossible to change grip on a weapon in the middle of an attack action, except to drop or quick-draw a weapon. That still permits free use of a two-handed weapon and unarmed attacks like kicks and headbutts, and I'm fine with that.
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In the game you effectively ambidextrous. The weapon itself is not changing hands. You are only changing which one you want to attack with. It is not like the player is helping himself. He would be better off dropping the flavor and two-handing a weapon.I think limiting the free action for switching handedness when you should be mid-swing on the relevant weapon is a perfectly reasonable limitation that falls under that last sentence.
I say you could as long as it was different BAB levels. though I dont remember where exactly I read you can only take 1 or 2 free actions in a row.
If it is 1 then the draw-&-throw attack is viable but not the situation stated. If it is 2 then the situation is viable as the attack, release(F), draw(F), attack, grab(F), attack, etc.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
You misunderstand, I'm only referring specifically to the case where a person wants their "main" hand to be a 2-hander, and their "off" hand to be a quick-drawn weapon that they use once and drop to use the main-hander again. This means they're using the same arm twice within the same BAB pair, which is something I don't think is necessarily okay. Especially considering it takes 4 free actions per BAB pair to pull off (loose hand, quick draw, drop, set hand).
A 2-hander and kick? I'm perfectly fine with that, because you're not using the same limb twice in one pair.
EDIT: To be even more clear, I'm referring ONLY to using TWFing to do the above in the same pairing. A character with +6/+1 could do the 2-hander as the +6 attack, then loose_hand-quick_draw-attack with another weapon as the +1. However, if you have a +6/+6/+1/+1 from TWFing, I'm not okay with doing the 2-hander as a +6, then using the same hand again for the other +6. This is because I view each pair in the TWFing scheme to be a nearly simultaneous movements (or at the very list non-trivially overlapping) rather than sequential.
I say you could as long as it was different BAB levels. though I dont remember where exactly I read you can only take 1 or 2 free actions in a row.
If it is 1 then the draw-&-throw attack is viable but not the situation stated. If it is 2 then the situation is viable as the attack, release(F), draw(F), attack, grab(F), attack, etc.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Quick Draw allows you to draw and throw weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Personally, I don't think the PC is getting much out of this tactic. I'm just saying that it's supported by the rules. I think there are much better tactics.
You misunderstand, I'm only referring specifically to the case where a person wants their "main" hand to be a 2-hander, and their "off" hand to be a quick-drawn weapon that they use once and drop to use the main-hander again. This means they're using the same arm twice within the same BAB pair, which is something I don't think is necessarily okay. Especially considering it takes 4 free actions per BAB pair to pull off (loose hand, quick draw, drop, set hand).A 2-hander and kick? I'm perfectly fine with that, because you're not using the same limb twice in one pair.
EDIT: To be even more clear, I'm referring ONLY to using TWFing to do the above in the same pairing. A character with +6/+1 could do the 2-hander as the +6 attack, then loose_hand-quick_draw-attack with another weapon as the +1. However, if you have a +6/+6/+1/+1 from TWFing, I'm not okay...
If the situation were legal (and I'm actually leaning on the side of No in regards to that - just about all other rules make a limb off limits once using it to make attacks with), the character would be taking AoO's for every off handed attack they make. Without some form of investment to prevent AoOs from ranged weapon, they are still in melee range with someone, they are making a ranged attack with an off handed weapon and cannot use the 2h weapon to defend themselves. Even with a fighter who has a bucket of feats, specing for 2h weapons and Twf is going to be intensive and becomes a MAD build.
If the character is spending feats to prevent the AoO I'd almost be willing to let it slide, unless something else gets thrown into the mix, it is far from broken and well within the realm of "fantasy" combat with a bit of flavor.
Personally, I don't think the PC is getting much out of this tactic. I'm just saying that it's supported by the rules. I think there are much better tactics.
I'm with Bob_Loblaw. There are MAD, money, and weight issues with trying to "cheat" the system this way. Quite frankly it's been cheated for a long time, see Spiked Armor and Improved Unarmed Combat (plus a number of supplement weapons). If you are looking to do this every round of combat you have carry all those secondary weapons to begin with, which is weight, which is a high strength score (again). You also have to eventually enchant them to be effective in higher level combat. Lots of weapons, lots of GP expenditure on non-"christmas tree" items. If you are throwing them there is chance the NPCs you are fighting could pick them up and throw them back, or just use them... Ya for arming the Mooks!
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If you wanted a "Fix" to this issue I'd hard code a change to TWF. "Primary" weapons "deal up to your strength bonus" while all "Secondary" weapons "deal 1/2 strength bonus".
This would have the effect of immediately nerfing the 1.5x Str bonus off a 2-handed weapon and any feats/abilities that increase that strength modifier to damage. This is essentially the Double Weapon category of exotic weapons, but with slightly large damage dice on the primary instead of on the secondary. Likely the same feat tax to make it viable too.
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If a player really wants to carry 1000 swords(knives) into battle with him, that's his choice. On the Powergamer end of the field he can feel free to nerf himself with "style" all he likes. It's also a nice novice game disrupter trap. Anyone thinking this is actually a "powerful" or "broken" way to get more damage is going to fall through some rotten floorboards in the system very quickly.