Melee Summoner Advice

[Qik]

Hi All.

I've been contemplating a melee-oriented summoner build, and I wanted to see if I could get some advice on the idea. My biggest issue is where to place my focus: on boosting the combat viability of the eidolon, or on the summoner himself. If the former is the goal, I could see switching Toughness and Extra Evolution, for instance.

The PC will begin at level 1, and would be for a PbP campaign, meaning that progression will be relatively slow, which in turn places an exceptional emphasis on levels 1-5 (which I could feasibly be at for a year+).

Here's a very brief outline of my thoughts thus far. I'm definitely planning on having strength be my primary stat, with charisma relatively deemphasized (I don't plan on using spells with DCs, or my SLA, much at all). The bully trait is there more for flavor, and could get switched out for something else. I'm planning on taking the half-elf racial FC bonus for the extra evolution points. I did consider taking a weapon proficiency with a one-handed weapon, and picking up a shield - with a MW shield, I could avoid the ACP. I'm open to the idea of taking a quadruped over a biped - maybe I'm undervaluing pounce vs the higher strength of the biped.

Thoughts? I'll also say that I'm open to the idea of executing this general concept (i.e. melee fighter with pet/buddy) with another class, save the ranger, as I'm already playing one in another game.

Many thanks.

half-elf
summoner

Str: 18 (10) +2 racial
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 10 (0)
Cha: 13 (3)

Racial Traits:
- Ancestral Weapon: Fauchard

Feats:
- Toughness (lvl 1)
- Extra Evolution (lvl 3)

Traits:
- Anatomist: +1 to confirm crits
- Bully: +1 Intimidate, Intimidate as CS

Spells:
- 0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Light
- 1: Shield, Lesser Restore Eidolon

Skills:
- Knowledge (Arcana) +4 (1 rank), Intimidate +6 (1 rank)

Eidolon:
- Biped:
- Evolutions:
----1: Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Skilled (Perception) (1)
----2: Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Ability Increase (Strength) (2)
----3: ?
- Feats:
----Power Attack (lvl 1)
----Weapon Focus (Claws)? (lvl 3)

[Thalin]

Druids do the melee + pet better than summoners. Basically any class can do it; all it really takes for a front-liner 1-5 is power attack and a weapon. At 6 your lack of AC and a 2nd attack will be felt; and unlike Druids/rangers if you fall, so does your pet (he dismisses). It just gets worse as you go up, especially as you get more spells and realize you're better buffing the monster / party instead of actually trying to do damage yourself.

You have the stats right generally though (I assume a hatred of dump stats?). I'd wield a longspear so if someone wants to fight you they at least take an AOO. Make your eidolon a bite/tripper with reach, and pick up Arcane Strike at 5, extra evolution is good but not as good as your half-elf.

[Qik]

My main concern was the lack of HP/AC, especially with me spending the FC bonus on the 1/4 evolution point. Point taken on druids - I find the eidolon's customizability very attractive, and the fact that it can be more of a beast than the druid's pet, but there are definitely some downsides.

I'm not necessarily adverse to dumping a stat, just don't see any real need/viability for it in this instance. 8 in Int would put me down to a single skill point, which sucks; dumping Wis hurts my Will, which is helped by the class, but still, I'm not sure the extra 2 points will be worth it. I don't need to start off with the 14 in Cha - maybe a 15 in Dex? Dropping Wis to 7 is a bit too extreme for me.

The fauchard is a reach weapon, with 18-20 crit range, which is why my inclination is to opt for that. Trip sounds good.

[Kazejin]

I've always had two issues with the biped vs quadruped thing.

1) You can compensate for a slightly lower strength score by improving your feat and/or evolution selection. But there's no realistic way to truly compensate for it not being able to pounce; and the more attacks it gains, the larger the difference becomes. I'd rather have access to pounce than not have access to it, especially when the strength difference isn't very large.

2) You can ride a quadruped, which would essentially let you pounce along with it, though investment in mounted feats may be required. Cast Enlarge Person on the eidolon, and bam, now its a size category larger than you right out of the gate. (And yes, you can use Enlarge Person on your own eidolon because of the benefits of Share Spells). And the mount evolution only costs 1 more point.

As much as I'd hate to advocate one type as being the dominant choice over everything else... it kinda is in this case. Pounce is quintessential to the maintenance of DPR, especially against mobile and/or clever opponents, or in large battlefields. But, as with everything else, experiences vary from one person to the next... your GM may have a gameplan that makes stationary fighting easier than the people in my gaming groups expect. If this winds up being the case, pounce is less needed. Either way, I prefer to be prepared; as having an option is generally preferable to not having one.

tldr: when it comes to keeping up DPR, quadrupeds have some advantages built-in that bipeds will have a hard time compensating for, by comparison.
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As for the issue of who's the bigger focus between the summoner and the eidolon, the damage potential of the eidolon is a lot better than the damage potential of the summoner who called him. So, personally, I'd generally focus a little more on the eidolon. That said, you'll still have to put a good amount of effort in the summoner as well; but I'm sure you know that.

Edit -- got ninja'd a little. Druid is indeed a valid option if you're not set on being a Summoner. But I'll refrain from any extensive comparisons of the two for now.

[Breiti]

Qik wrote:

My main concern was the lack of HP/AC, especially with me spending the FC bonus on the 1/4 evolution point. Point taken on druids - I find the eidolon's customizability very attractive, and the fact that it can be more of a beast than the druid's pet, but there are definitely some downsides.

I'm not necessarily adverse to dumping a stat, just don't see any real need/viability for it in this instance. 8 in Int would put me down to a single skill point, which sucks; dumping Wis hurts my Will, which is helped by the class, but still, I'm not sure the extra 2 points will be worth it. I don't need to start off with the 14 in Cha - maybe a 15 in Dex? Dropping Wis to 7 is a bit too extreme for me.

The fauchard is a reach weapon, with 18-20 crit range, which is why my inclination is to opt for that. Trip sounds good.

Don't take Extra Evolution. 1 evo point is not worth a feat. Trip with a 3/4 base and without improved trip is hard. So i would go...

1. Toughness
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus

For spell consider enlarge person. Good as a buff for you eidolon and for yourself with your reach weapon. 15 ft. reach while in second line behind you eidolon helps a lot with weak ac/hp

[Breiti]

Kazejin wrote:

You can ride a quadruped, which would essentially let you pounce along with it, though investment in mounted feats may be required.

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. So i hope you didn't mean you get a full attack by "let you pounce along with it"

I currently play a caster/summoner and my damage output is not the best but still very good. And never forget rule one "Eidolons don't die!! Fighters do!" Even biped eidolons get a poor mans pounce. Dimension Door!
Eidelon delay, summoner casts DD, eidolon full attacks.

My med biped Eidolon can wear a hat of disguse so he can come with me to a tavern, castle or whatever..

At least in my eye pounce is very good but still over hyped around the board...

Breiti

[Kazejin]

Breiti wrote:

Don't take Extra Evolution. 1 evo point is not worth a feat.

Are you sure? I could point out several 1-point evolutions that are superior to a lot of feats. If you spending a feat means the difference between having and not having certain a certain evolution, I'd say it can be worth it. The real question is whether or not you can (or are willing to) spend a feat, versus waiting a few levels to get more points the normal way.

Edit -- Dimension Door isn't a "poor man's" option though. That's a spell or similar resource burned whenever you need to move + multi-attack versus just spending 1 evolution point and calling it a day.

On the mounted combat thing, I was thinking about certain specific builds... which aren't of total relevance because of the things involved in doing it, so I should have left that part out. My bad. Instead, let's pretend I replaced that with [insert charging damage strategy here]!

[Thalin]

For stats, mechanically you can go 19/14/14/7/7/14, be ready for a 20 @ 4th . For Int if you truly want that skill point back you can use your favored class bonus; for will save you can use the half-elf form (+2 will) and a longspear (-1 crit range, effectively 1 damage) to trade out. So relative to above, we've upped your save and spellcasting and lost 1 crit range on your weapon. And given you options for even more hp if you can live with 1 skill/lvl.

So feats:

1) Combat Reflexes
3) Weapon Focus
5) Arcane Strike
7) Power attack

At 7 you'll be +10 to hit (+1 weapon) for d8+15. Not too shabby. You'll also have plenty of AOOs.

As to bipedal va quads > pounce rarely goes off, never with large form. When you get large form a bipedal gets reach on all attacks, which will lead to more AOOs and full attack opportunities. This is on top of the permanent +1 to hit / damage. So biped unless you want to ride it.

[Qik]

I think both Thalin and Kazejin make good points on either side of biped vs quadruped - I think it comes down to whether you prefer the constant advantage of the former or the home-run potential of the latter. I tend to lean towards the former, but K's argument is a provocative one. However, I'm not interested in going the direction of a mount with this one, so I'm leaning towards bipedal.

Taking Dual-Minded and dumping Wis seems viable; I always have the eidolon for perception checks. I've always wanted to play a character with a low Wis, but have been scared off by the penalty to will saves; maybe here's my chance.

[azhureheart]

If you really want to focus on combat, you can try the synthesist build from the Ultimate Magic book. You could have 6 attacks and a 40-50 something strength by the time things are all said and done.

[Qik]

The Synthesist is good at what it does, but I'm more interested in a character with a companion.

[Kazejin]

Thalin wrote:

As to bipedal va quads > pounce rarely goes off, never with large form. When you get large form a bipedal gets reach on all attacks, which will lead to more AOOs and full attack opportunities. This is on top of the permanent +1 to hit / damage. So biped unless you want to ride it.

Gonna reiterate my point of "experiences vary."

Reason being, my large eidolon pounces multiple times almost every encounter. Not sure where the "pounce rarely/never goes off" theory is coming from, unless every single encounter you fight in is loaded with particularly difficult terrain and/or obstacles everywhere. Which doesn't sound like a fair assumption to me... regardless though, there's quite a few ways to make an eidolon fly over such problems.

For the naysayers who advocate not having a large eidolon... large size isn't that hard to accommodate. And in the occasion where it could be, there's this neat little utility spell called Reduce Person. The really neat thing is that the large evolution bonus to strength is much larger than the reduction penalty, meaning the eidolon still has a net gain to strength when using this tactic.

[Elyza]

If you are going to melee as a summoner, use your best buddy as a flanker, and optimize for it.

Original race and stats: good
Ancestral Weapon: good
If you are going to single class, take the Arcane Training racial trait to squeak out a little more from wands and scrolls.

Feats:
- Combat Reflexes (lvl 1)
- Precise Strike (lvl 3)
- Extra Evolution(level 5)
- Power Attack (lvl 7) Any earlier, and it is only generating 3 damage. The Precise Strike gave you +3.5 damage and +2 to hit (because you have to flank) instead of -1.

The PbP you are in already has higher than normal HP, which for the summoner class is equal to the Toughness feat for free. And since PbP is so slow, you can think and optimize your attacks a lot better than at a table top game. And the eidolon has significantly more HP than normal. In other words, HPs are not a problem.

Traits:
- Dirty Fighter: +1 to all flanking damage. Plan on using the eidolon as a flanker. Optimize for that. The Anatomist you had would only have been effective if a crit had been close. Not likely with your weapon having a larger crit range to begin with.
- Bully: +1 Intimidate, Intimidate as CS. Good fluffy fun.

Spells:
- 0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Acid Splash or Jolt
Light is a spell you can replace permanently for 75 gp. Don't waste a precious spell slot for it. Even if they summoner gets a very poor selection of cantrips. Second level, add Read Magic. By that time, you will be receiving and affording several scrolls, and you don't want to be using spellcraft checks to read them.

- 1: Shield, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon
It is 60/40 as to if I would go with Mage Armor before LRE. The normal eidolon, unlike they synthesist, can be healed by your cleric's channel energy bursts. So, healing is not as hard to come by.

Skills:
- Knowledge (Arcana) +4 (1 rank), Intimidate +6 (1 rank)
I would go with Spellcraft before Knowledge Arcana.

Eidolon:
- Quadruped:
Make sure acrobatics is a chosen class skill. Intimidate and Sleight of Hand are also good skills to take for if you ever want to specialize in them for a level or two.
- Evolutions:
----1: Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Skilled (Perception) (1)
----2: Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Reach(Bite)(1), Skilled(Acrobatics)(1)
He can dance his way through a crowd of mooks and avoid all the AoO's with the Acrobatics die roll of 3. Or keep the Perception if he is the party scout.
----3: Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Reach(Bite)(1), Trip(2) or the two skills
- Feats:
----Power Attack (lvl 1)
----Precise Strike (lvl 3) You had to wait until both the summoner and eidolon qualified to take it. That is how Power Attack got defaulted to the first feat.
----Improved Overrun (lvl 5) +12 to overrun, an effective +7 to knock prone while doing it

The Pounce evolution can be taken later in the career. It is a burst damage that is nice, but not needed at the lower levels. Most of your fights are going to be Summoner moves into position and readies to attack once the critter is flanked. The eidolon moves into position, ready goes off, summoner attacks with flank, eidolon attacks with flank. Next round 4 attacks with flank. Critter dead.

Remember, if you take Pounce too early, you tend to do one round kills and make the game boring for the rest of the folks. You are mostly taking quadruped to have a flying buddy at fifth level. The extra freedom of working in 3 dimensions is worth giving up the STR bonus and large extra reach of the biped.

Before the summoner spends money to enchant his weapon, spend 5,000 gp on a +0, Shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists for the eidolon. Then it is doing base die + d6 shock + d6 precise + STR + power attack.

-SK/Arianna over in the PbP