Can use scrolls / wand instead of Prepared spells to craft items?

[wayavas]

Lets say I dont have the spell fox cunning, but i have some scrolls. Is it possible to craft an item using scrolls? I know the RAW answer to this is no, since it specifies that you need to spell prepared, but still...using scrolls is a logical choice since its the same as the spell, you would only need something like read magic/use magic device.

[StabbittyDoom]

I was under the impression that the answer is "yes", BUT you must use a 'cast' (or in this case, scroll) for every day spent crafting. I don't really have a RAW justification for this, though.

It's better that you add +5 to the DC and skip the spell entirely (though this doesn't work with scrolls, wands or staves).

[wayavas]

StabbittyDoom wrote:

I was under the impression that the answer is "yes", BUT you must use a 'cast' (or in this case, scroll) for every day spent crafting. I don't really have a RAW justification for this, though.

It's better that you add +5 to the DC and skip the spell entirely (though this doesn't work with scrolls, wands or staves).

Thank you! I did not think about that (:

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

From PHB:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

[Kazejin]

I'm pretty sure you can use spell-casting items to craft other magic items. But you need to have at least one instance of the spell per day required to craft. So if you spend 5 days crafting, that means you'd have to consume at least 5 scrolls (one each day), etc etc.

That being said, it's also legal to have someone else who can cast the spell assist you in the item creation; but doing it this way means the person must be willing to work alongside you each day of crafting. If that person misses a day, you can't get anything done that day either.

Keeping the above point in mind, a more effective route (when possible) is to buy one scroll and have the party wizard learn it and add it to his spellbook (if he didn't already know the spell). Then he can assist you in the item crafting without needed extra scrolls (unless he manages to botch the roll to learn the spell in the first place).

Edit: Got ninja'd by TCG.

[AerynTahlro]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

From PHB:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

^This^ is the answer, with one HUGE caveat:

You cannot craft Spell Completion or Charged items unless you have the spell prepared. So you can't convert 50 Scrolls of Fireball into one Wand of Fireball. But you can use a Scroll of Cat's Grace to craft a Belt of Incredible Dexterity (one per day of crafting iirc).

Of course, this is where the magic creation rules start getting screwy... you can use 1 scroll per day of crafting, or simply add 5 to the DC and not consume any scrolls/wands/spell slots. Paizo really needs to stop working on siege weapons and start fixing base rules.

[Midnight_Angel]

Hmm... the variant my GM is using (receive the +5DC for supplying the required spell from external sources, such as a wand, scroll or another caster; crafting without the spell is actually impossible) works quite nicely, as well.

[Kazejin]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Hmm... the variant my GM is using (receive the +5DC for supplying the required spell from external sources, such as a wand, scroll or another caster; crafting without the spell is actually impossible) works quite nicely, as well.

So... your GM has houseruled that having someone assist in the item creation by providing the spell makes it harder to craft? I could understand houseruling that using it from magic items might make it harder. But another caster? That's kinda laughable. Assuming the other caster is actually physically competent and mentally capable, an extra set of hands and eyes should only ever make the process easier; which is why we have assist rules. Extra help should never hurt, unless the helper is intentionally trying to derail the project.

"Hey GM, this 20th level wizard has agreed to help me make this item."

"Oh? Despite how apparently knowledgeable he would be on the required spell, the applications of the spell, and similar factors, and even though he is helping you with the full intent of success, and not to try to hurt the item at all... I'm gonna rule that your item somehow got harder to craft anyway. Don't think about it too much, just 'roll' with it!"

[Midnight_Angel]

Oh, if he actually helps me crafting, things do get easier. (yes, we use the optional 3.5 rule of Aiding another giving more than just +2 if the help is competent enough)

However, if all he does is casting the spell at the appropriate point of my crafting, it is still I who has to weave the magic into the gadget. A magic that is not my own, and thus significantly less familiar to me.

[Kazejin]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Oh, if he actually helps me crafting, things do get easier. (yes, we use the optional 3.5 rule of Aiding another giving more than just +2 if the help is competent enough)

However, if all he does is casting the spell at the appropriate point of my crafting, it is still I who has to weave the magic into the gadget. A magic that is not my own, and thus significantly less familiar to me.

Eh. I understand the logic, my cynicism was more towards defeating the purpose of the assist/aid mechanic. Technically, the persn casting the spell needs to spend his 8 hours with you while you work on the craft that day. If in that length of time, he cant pass enough knowledge onto you to offset the inherent logcal difficulty... there's a conundrum here.

If he is spending that time, he might as well aid another while he's at it. So you get your +2... but oops. The houserule still puts you behind by 3 because of the heightened DC. End result: his help made it harder. This is why logic, magic, and game rules don't always mix well.

[AerynTahlro]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Oh, if he actually helps me crafting, things do get easier. (yes, we use the optional 3.5 rule of Aiding another giving more than just +2 if the help is competent enough)

However, if all he does is casting the spell at the appropriate point of my crafting, it is still I who has to weave the magic into the gadget. A magic that is not my own, and thus significantly less familiar to me.

Technically, I believe you need the Cooperative Crafting feat in order to assist in the creation of magical items. Otherwise I could see the logic of:

"Yes, you're supplying the spell from elsewhere so you don't need it on a scroll/wand, but the person from whom you're receiving the spell isn't trained in assisting your crafting process, so it still makes things difficult."

In the case of that logic, perhaps the DM could agree to the difference of the situations, where the other caster is doing Aid Another (+2 check), but you don't have the spell (+5 DC), so you're effectively raising the DC by +3 instead of +5.

[David knott 242]

AerynTahlro wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

From PHB:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

^This^ is the answer, with one HUGE caveat:

You cannot craft Spell Completion or Charged items unless you have the spell prepared. So you can't convert 50 Scrolls of Fireball into one Wand of Fireball. But you can use a Scroll of Cat's Grace to craft a Belt of Incredible Dexterity (one per day of crafting iirc).

That must be a misquote -- as written, spontaneous casters would be unable to make spell completion items. I believe that they can, if they have the proper feats and spells.

[StabbittyDoom]

AerynTahlro wrote:

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Oh, if he actually helps me crafting, things do get easier. (yes, we use the optional 3.5 rule of Aiding another giving more than just +2 if the help is competent enough)

However, if all he does is casting the spell at the appropriate point of my crafting, it is still I who has to weave the magic into the gadget. A magic that is not my own, and thus significantly less familiar to me.

Technically, I believe you need the Cooperative Crafting feat in order to assist in the creation of magical items. Otherwise I could see the logic of:

"Yes, you're supplying the spell from elsewhere so you don't need it on a scroll/wand, but the person from whom you're receiving the spell isn't trained in assisting your crafting process, so it still makes things difficult."

In the case of that logic, perhaps the DM could agree to the difference of the situations, where the other caster is doing Aid Another (+2 check), but you don't have the spell (+5 DC), so you're effectively raising the DC by +3 instead of +5.

I believe the purpose of that is to share other pre-requisites as well, such as alignment or feats and to ensure that you get two people worth of output (normally you would assist and spend 2 people's time for 1 persons output).

Also, the +2 circumstance bonus would stack onto normal aid another (which you should already be able to do, especially with mundane Craft).

[Kazejin]

StabbittyDoom wrote:

I believe the purpose of that is to share other pre-requisites as well, such as alignment or feats and to ensure that you get two people worth of output (normally you would assist and spend 2 people's time for 1 persons output).

Also, the +2 circumstance bonus would stack onto normal aid another (which you should already be able to do, especially with mundane Craft).

^^^This^^^

Cooperative Crafting was created to allow two people to double the crafting speed, and to allow either person's statistics to apply to the craft. It's not needed if the other person is just assisting your spellcraft check, or if he's just providing a spell for you.

Hence, my concern about that houserule. Since the helper must be present for the entire work period anyway (and is therefore perfectly capable of aiding the required Spellcraft check that makes the item magical in the first place), I'd say there's enough reason to assume that the DC need not increase; a capable caster is overseeing and helping you work the spell into the item. Unless he was especially incompetent, there's no reason to make the DC higher.

But hey, houserules are houserules. If that's how they roll in their game, more power to them.

[AerynTahlro]

David knott 242 wrote:

That must be a misquote -- as written, spontaneous casters would be unable to make spell completion items. I believe that they can, if they have the proper feats and spells.

Sorry, but it's no misquote. Refer to the Magic Item Creation rules here.

d20pfsrd wrote:

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends)

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.

[Kazejin]

Aeryn, he's referring to how you stated the "spell must be prepared" without including the "or must know the spell in the case of sorcerer or bard" piece. Which isn't so much a misquote as it an incomplete one.

If someone took your original message to the most literal extent, it would imply that spontaneous casters are hosed on item crafting. But we all know (or should know) that isn't the case; so I'm still not entirely sure why he bothered to call it out.

[AerynTahlro]

Kazejin wrote:

Aeryn, he's referring to how you stated the "spell must be prepared" without including the "or must know the spell in the case of sorcerer or bard" piece.

Ahhh, I see