Not really, some people just don't want guns messing up their fantasy, others think it's ok and third love it. It's the approach.1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.Doesn't make "1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy." a good generalised rule though, does it? Especially not in reference to Pathfinder, which explicitly does contain such elements.
I don't much like vancian casting, but you'll not catch me saying "1} No one should ever bring a vancian casting (or "vancian wizards") into Pathfinder fantasy."
:-D
I rarely agree with ZN, but this is awesome!
I am a very nice and reasonable person. I just go to great lengths to hide it sometimes ;)
You fool me all the time! :D
#ForeverAlone
Meh I'm good with Sidhe, the others... sure I can go with you on.One of my pet peeves, more in fantasy fiction than in gaming:
If it looks like an elf, talks like an elf, and is sparkly like an elf, then call it a frakking elf.
I've read too many fantasy stories, whether written by friends or by published authors, where they describe a tall (or very short), slender, pale-skinned (or black-skinned), pointy-eared being--normally who lives in the forest and is at one with nature and/or really good at magic--and then they proceed to call them a "sidhe" or a "sylvan" or a "smeerf" or what have you.
Dude. It's fantasy. It's an elf. If you're ashamed of using elves, DON'T USE THEM. If you're not ashamed of using elves, then don't try to change the name and hope nobody will notice (or will praise you for how "different" you're being). Not to mention, elves come from a lovely portion of northern European mythology and it's not like you're violating someone's IP by using them.
I know this isn't quite the kind of complaint you were looking for, but it pops up in newer attempts at high fantasy a lot and it's annoying as hell.
I am okay with Sidhe, especially if the setting is celtic(irish) inspired.
I am also okay with sith, but generally only if it is Celtic scottish inspired.
Well, based on mythology, I see sidhe (Irish, IIRC) and elves (Nordic) as different creatures, but that's nitpicking.
My point was less the specific term chosen and more the "don't call a rabbit a smeerf" thing. If you're going to use a recognizable fantasy creature in your book, don't give it a different name and be pretentious enough to think that your readers believe you made up a whole new race.
Regarding the "don't use contemporary language" debate---I've been experiencing an interesting thing. I'm writing a fantasy novel for fun, sharing it chapter by chapter with my writing group. A lot of times they will catch words and phrases that seem anachronistic. Sometimes they make a legitimate catch (and I'm glad they do!). But sometimes they circle a word or phrase that is, in fact, traceable to Renaissance or Medieval literature (which was my focus when I got my Master's degree in English, so I'm pretty confident of my sources). Not to mention, my world is way more advanced than medieval (though I appreciate trying to set the right tone for a fantasy novel regardless of the setting's advancements). It's fascinating to see what people--educated people who are excellent writers in their own right to boot--think of as "old" sounding versus "contemporary" sounding. I was reading somewhere... I can't remember the source, sadly, but one historical author called it the Tiffany Syndrome; i.e., "Tiffany" is a name with ancient roots but you could never name a character that in a historical novel because your readers would think you didn't know what the hell you were doing.
Tolkien most certainly based his elves on the Sidhe. It is especially noticeable if you read the Lost Tales. One of Tolkien's goals was to expand British folklore. The elves retiring to a magic island in the west is a reference to Avalon.
But I do agree that using commonly used terms is better than inventing new ones for everything. A few exotic words in moderation is ok. But if I need a giant glossary to read your book, you've gone too far.
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I had to read the article over, because I wondered if China Mieville just threw the book out on all of this a decade ago.
First, Bas-Lag is a world in the throes of an Industrial Revolution, but without the level of economic sophistication we have. Mass-scale production and standardized products are common in the world, but if you look at how it's all funded, it gets really nebulous. Magic has been heavily industrialized, with thaumaturgic engines being a regular item. I could easily see people working as professional calibratrices for New Crobuzon, dedicated to ensuring measurement precision for magical energies.
But economically? There are nearly no discussions about finance. Even employment seems to be a term hard to understand for the average Bas-Lag native; most either make a living by trying to ply his or her own wares and/or skills and talents, or are, in essence, pressed into service, like the denizens of Armada. Only the dockworkers of the Gross Tar seemed to function like employees, but since their revolt was put down by the New Crobuzon military, there is a further element of government-mandated service, there, as well. Bas-Lag seems, for the most part, to be mercantilist at best with a huge black market economy, and quite inefficient from modern standards.
Thus, the question of what is modern vs. what is old remains in flux.
Now, it's quite possible that we can simply state that Bas-Lag isn't epic fantasy, but the fact remains--it's fantasy, it can be whatever it needs to be to tell the proper story that needs telling.
The wierd thing is the concept of something being anarchronistic was not thought of until the renissance by Lorenzo Valla. So saying that something is anachronistic is anachronistic if based in the middle ages.
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
You're wrong! Because my opinion is just as valid as yours I win because my post is newer.
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...
And you would be wrong also.
Does the bread magically make you full after 2 bites, does it give you the visions of the dead whose bones were used to make it? No, then call it bread dot give it a special name unless it is special.Is perhaps one of the best ones for aspiring writers.
Not sure I entirely agree.
If the bread has special social significance, or is a regional variation, different from the normal bread ...
Nash loafs, which are an unleaven bread, made for holy days, or sophan, a regional soda bread, with poppy seeds and sun dried tomatos, ...
I think your point is his point :) (my emphasis)
I think your point is his point :) (my emphasis)Does the bread magically make you full after 2 bites, does it give you the visions of the dead whose bones were used to make it? No, then call it bread dot give it a special name unless it is special.Is perhaps one of the best ones for aspiring writers.Not sure I entirely agree.
If the bread has special social significance, or is a regional variation, different from the normal bread ...
Nash loafs, which are an unleaven bread, made for holy days, or sophan, a regional soda bread, with poppy seeds and sun dried tomatos, ...
Different kind of special in this case. Not special magical, not special fantastitc. Just special in the same way freshly cooked naan is special, straight from the tandoori is special. *mouth waters*
Does the bread magically make you full after 2 bites, does it give you the visions of the dead whose bones were used to make it? No, then call it bread dot give it a special name unless it is special.Is perhaps one of the best ones for aspiring writers.Not sure I entirely agree.
If the bread has special social significance, or is a regional variation, different from the normal bread ...
Nash loafs, which are an unleaven bread, made for holy days, or sophan, a regional soda bread, with poppy seeds and sun dried tomatos, ...I think your point is his point :) (my emphasis)
Different kind of special in this case. Not special magical, not special fantastitc. Just special in the same way freshly cooked naan is special, straight from the tandoori is special. *mouth waters*
While fresh naan is wonderful (I <3 Naan as well), maybe not special. But yes I would include communion wafers and other culturally significant bread in my list of special; BUT only in the context that the author is describing the cultural event that that bread is associated with. if you are having a flat-bread with a meal in the book I actually prefer to leave it that vague then I can fill in the details of is it Naan, or Pita, or Tortilla, etc. I would also be curious why you are writing about a meal until you bring in the plot or dialog breadcrumbs, and grumbling about making me hungry while I am reading.
While fresh naan is wonderful (I <3 Naan as well), maybe not special. But yes I would include communion wafers and other culturally significant bread in my list of special; BUT only in the context that the author is describing the cultural event that that bread is associated with. if you are having a flat-bread with a meal in the book I actually prefer to leave it that vague then I can fill in the details of is it Naan, or Pita, or Tortilla, etc. I would also be curious why you are writing about a meal until you bring in the plot or dialog breadcrumbs, and grumbling about making me hungry while I am reading.Does the bread magically make you full after 2 bites, does it give you the visions of the dead whose bones were used to make it? No, then call it bread dot give it a special name unless it is special.Is perhaps one of the best ones for aspiring writers.Not sure I entirely agree.
If the bread has special social significance, or is a regional variation, different from the normal bread ...
Nash loafs, which are an unleaven bread, made for holy days, or sophan, a regional soda bread, with poppy seeds and sun dried tomatos, ...I think your point is his point :) (my emphasis)
Different kind of special in this case. Not special magical, not special fantastitc. Just special in the same way freshly cooked naan is special, straight from the tandoori is special. *mouth waters*
I first read berlin game, by Len Deighton, when I was 17.. i'm 28(almost 29) now. I still have sense memories of a description of roast beef from that book.
Similarly I was I think 10, when I first was read a redwall book, and my memories food described in those books remain amongst my most vivid childhood memories.
I've heard other people describe how they have the same experience of the smell of still suits.
Good description, even off otherwise unimportant details helps make a book live in the readers mind. Food is such an important element of our lives, that its description can carry with it, many times its own weight in information. A description of home grown wine, dry, but fruity, easy to drink by the bucket load, al dente pasta with think slowly cooked bolognes, flavored with, fresh oregano and bassil, and a little to much garlic, plus fresh warm bread, eaten at a tressal table under vines on a hot summer day, carrys with it ideas and senses not just about the food, but the culture of those preparing it. It triggers ideas about the conversation thats happening "off screen", about the atmosphere of the meal, and about what the protagonists will be feeling.
Food is a great short hand. One of the best in literature.
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...I agree as well.
I also think that psionics has no place in fantasy. Sci fi yes, but not fantasy.
I did not like gunpowder in medieval oriented settings. I remember refusing to play shadow run for more or less the same reasons. however let's do some mental gymnastics:
1) one can always change one's mind2) it's technically FANTASY. Check the word in a dictionary for a rigorous definition. Fantasy comes out of our minds so there should not be anything that has no place in it. Golarion is a world were you can easily set games with 100% Arthur and Merlin flavour, Tolkien-like races, ancient Egypt-like realms or even far east themes. If we dislike gunpowder because of it's modern quality we shoul also despise warships and galleys because they were developed pretty much at the same time than muskets and the like.
Excuse the rant but this is only my way of accepting figures such as the gunslinger (which I really find interesting).
Pd. By the way in warfare history you normallyhave one technology at it's peak being surpassed by a better counterpart. Such I the case of the European gothic full plate. T was the best you could get for personal protection... Around the 15-16th century, but it was rendered useless by the nascent fireguns. So if we follow this train of thought the gunslinger turns out to be not only not out of place, but also coherent.
I'm going to try and do all these things anyway and STILL be the epic awesome f#$+ing shiznit.
First,.....I summon a big demon and put him to work on the farm.
I call him my Hay Balor.
Not really, some people just don't want guns messing up their fantasy, others think it's ok and third love it. It's the approach.1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.
I'm KIND of in the 2nd catagory.
For the most part, I think the idea of cowboys side by sides with knights is ridiculous. In 1890's ravenloft, I'm all gung-ho to play a cowboy.... in standard fantasy... not so much. I don't think they have any place.
Then one of my friends asked 'What about pirates?'
THAT changed my mind. Pirates without flintlocks and cannons just seem WRONG somehow. Pirates absolutley belong in a game like this... and NEED their guns.
I'm ok with guns in fantasy. If I am in someone else's game, I'm ok without them.
But I have to say, there have been pirates for as long as there have been boats. Julius Ceaser was kidnapped by pirates. You can definitely have pirates without guns. You can have pirates in space. You can have pirates anywhere.
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...
Well, if that the definition of "heroic fantasy", then Dungeons and Dragons is not heroic fantasy. Since it's had guns (and other things, like spaceships and laser rifles) in it before it was even published (i.e. the Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns).
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
A legion of 1,000 mithrilclad ogre mage ashigaru beg to differ.