How important is an attribute bonus to you?

[Shuriken Nekogami]

this thread was inspired by a debate with Vodoomike

here are my questions

1; how important is an attribute bonus to you? try to answer for both one synergistic to your class, and one you don't care about

2; how many/how high of attribute bonuses would you desire before giving up a level?

3; if you had to give up only a single level and take on a +1 level adjustment to take the advanced creature template, would you, Why?

4; do you beleive attributes are the only thing that matters when optimizing? are they even the primary thing? what about when you reach the point where you have so many other bonuses to play with?

5; what does a lost class level mean to you?

6; do you really think i'm a powergamer? do you mean it as a compliment or insult?

[kyrt-ryder]

1: Relatively important. I want a character who is decently well balanced (nothing under 10 unless it's a racial penalty at 8) with good scores in their focal areas.

2: That's a difficult question to answer, and varies depending on the campaign, DM, and other players. In general attributes aren't worth a level unless there's a lot of them.

3: I might, depending on how high a level I expected the campaign to go, what point buy we were on, and a few other factors. For a Monk in a 15 point campaign (or 3d6) the Advanced Template (if available) would practically be a level tax to give you a chance of actually functioning.

4: Hell no. 'Attributes' as a whole don't mean anything to optimization. Optimizing is about working with what's available to you. Now having usable stats is essential to optimization. A primary caster starting with less than 16 in his primary stat, for example, is usually a poor choice. An 18 [17 if the campaign is starting above level 4] works pretty decently, while a 20 [or 19 in the above example] is ideal.

If by Attributes you mean total available though? Pffft, an optimizer can get by on 15 point buy easily. Choose a SAD class (Wizards are the easiest) and go crazy.

5: It means fewer feats, lower BAB, weaker and fewer class abilities, lower level spells, potentially fewer hit points, lower skill ranks, later entry into prestige classes/upper tier feats, potentially fewer skill points total, and a host of other issues that just really suck. Sometimes it's worth it for a character, but that doesn't make it suck any less.

6: You're not a powergamer Neko. You're a concept gamer. You come up with wacky (and perhaps slightly disturbing) concepts that are frequently anime (especially magical girl) inspired and try to make them work in the game. Sure you try to make your stuff strong, but the strong survive while the weak die off, that's the law of the jungle. I don't see you deliberately trying to overpower a party.

Personal Note for Nekogami:

Did you switch MSN's or something? I haven't seen you in a while. No I'm not signed in right now.

[Shuriken Nekogami]

For Kyrt:

i haven't checked MSN in quite a while

Edit; Thank You Kyrt. i also see myself as a concept gamer and try to make them work. which requires some optimization skill. some people tend to see my concepts as disturbing. but you are right, i don't deliberately seek to overpower a party.

[Jezai]

1. Depends on the class. I feel melee classes benefit more from the extra average damage and armor and health and what not then a spellcaster benefits from a higher DC (they can often get those high DC's through other ways, use control instead, etc.)

2/3. Again, depends on the build. But one level for the advance template for a MAD class like a paladin or a monk is worth it completely in my opinion.

4. Obviously they matter 'less' when you have more bonuses but they are still large enough contributes that they are of vital importance.

5. Depends when you loose the level. The level three feat is usually a lot more important to a character build then a level 11 feat. A spellcasting level is always huge.

6. Knowing what the heck you're talking about doesn't make you a power gamer. Never did.

On another note though I would rather do away with the six stats altogether and split them into their individual parts. Would fix a lot of problems (like rogues doing more damage when focused on strength, MAD classes, some stats not being as good as others etc.) But that is a a whole different discussion.

[45ur4]

1 - Attributes are everything to me, independently from the class I play these are my personal guidelines:
§ have an 18 in the highest (BeforeRacialModifiers)
§ have a 10 in the lowest AfterRacialModifiers
§ The more the better

2 to 3 - if I were allowed to take the advanced template I'd take it everytime it would be possible for two reasons: 1) I find more possibilities in having higher attributes that in having new or upgraded class abilities and 2) I'm a patient one, I'm going to wait for the next level to have the class ability if I really care (and for most of the capstones I don't bother losing them)

4 - No, they are not the only thing that matters, unless a competition is involved. From an optimization point of view, everything matters and all pretty much at the same level. To say it in a better way, Leave nothing to chance.

5 - From one to three lost levels, I consider them a fair trade.

6 - I like the avatar you have chosen. The word Powergamer was born to depict people in a negative way. Still, I like that word, so I have a positive inclination towards its meaning when I use it.

[wraithstrike]

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

this thread was inspired by a debate with Vodoomike

here are my questions

1; how important is an attribute bonus to you? try to answer for both one synergistic to your class, and one you don't care about

2; how many/how high of attribute bonuses would you desire before giving up a level?

3; if you had to give up only a single level and take on a +1 level adjustment to take the advanced creature template, would you, Why?

4; do you beleive attributes are the only thing that matters when optimizing? are they even the primary thing? what about when you reach the point where you have so many other bonuses to play with?

5; what does a lost class level mean to you?

6; do you really think i'm a powergamer? do you mean it as a compliment or insult?

1. I think they are important, but I also don't dump more than on stat if any below 10 if I can help it. The stat I don't care about can still be drained/damaged by some evil monster, but even without that nothing goes below an 8.

2 and 3. I would do it depending on the class. Casters no, but melee types mostly yes. It would also depend on what level the game was expected to end at also.
4. No, they are not the only thing. I can do pretty well with a 15 point buy if I have too. The stats for me are like the foundation of the character, because they determine what feats, spells, saves, and so on I get access to. Flexibility to build the character like I want to is what is most important to me.
5. It sucks, but I always try to have a high fort save. If you mean trade a class level for other features then I expect a lot in return.
6. I have never seen any of your builds so I can't say. As for the word it depends on how it is used. Different people use it differently. I prefer to call myself an optimizer.