RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Question: what happens when a wizard casts magic missile, intending to hit the minor image that a rival has cast of herself? Would it make a difference if, say, the second wizard has fasioned the minor image to look like herself, and has also cast invisibility, hiding, unbeknownst, within range of the magic missile?
For example, would you rule that the first wizard would immediately know that the minor image is a figment, since the spell would abort? In the second case, would the spell understand that the wizard wanted to hit "that wizard over there" and hit the invisible person?
you clearly have missed the point that I'm trying to make.
That in my oppion there is room for debate on this subject and I'm belive that it's not so black and white as other believe
I linked both spells. There is no debate. The spells clearly out line what happens. Magic missle doesnt have an attack roll and there fore has no interaction at all with mirror image.
Question: what happens when a wizard casts magic missile, intending to hit the minor image that a rival has cast of herself? Would it make a difference if, say, the second wizard has fasioned the minor image to look like herself, and has also cast invisibility, hiding, unbeknownst, within range of the magic missile?
For example, would you rule that the first wizard would immediately know that the minor image is a figment, since the spell would abort? In the second case, would the spell understand that the wizard wanted to hit "that wizard over there" and hit the invisible person?
He would not know the image is an illusion.
Even if the wizard is in the room, but hiding the wizard(victim) would not be hit by the attacker. You can't target someone with total concealment is the reason.
As to whether the spell(magic missile) just fails to activate or is wasted is up to the GM.
I see , deleted the post because it was not relevent to the question. thank you for correcting me :P
Edit - i think it would react normally with minor image. You cant hit the real thing because he has total concealmant but nothing in the spell description prevents you from hitting the minor image as long as you dont disbelieve it.
The only reason it doesnt work with mirror image is because the mirror image spell specifically says that it doesnt.
As to whether the spell(magic missile) just fails to activate or is wasted is up to the GM.
Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.
Spells also fail if your concentration is broken and might fail if you're wearing armor while casting a spell with somatic components.
Meh not so much -- spell is wasted.
you clearly have missed the point that I'm trying to make.
That in my oppion there is room for debate on this subject and I'm belive that it's not so black and white as other believe
There's zero room for debate. The text of mirror image is absolutely clear.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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It seems pretty clear to me that since the Mirror Image spell says it only affects attacks requiring an attack roll, and Magic Missile doesn't require an attack roll, the Magic Missiles would hit the real wizard and not disrupt any of the illusions.
There do seem to be some grey areas regarding things like the Barbarian readying an action to hit the wizard struck by the magic missiles, or cleaving through the illusions. I think the real answer here is that it comes down to what the GM rules on the matter.
And I think that the question the GM should ask him or herself is: Is this good for the game? Is it more fun to have the Barbarian Great Cleave through a bunch of illusions, or to have his attack fail because he chose the wrong target? Personally, I would probably vary my ruling depending on how often the Barbarian player got to use his Great Cleave that he spent two feats on (probably not very often), how difficult the fight was up to that point, how badly injured the Party is, etc.
Remember, the point is to have fun! The only way to lose is to not have a good time!
I agree that in melee it works fine i think the thing that is bothering me is could a caster use magic missle to pick out the real target amonst the fakes?
so could a party barbarian run up to an evil spell caster who has cast mirror image and then wait for his own mage to cast magic missle then just clobber the one that gets hit by the spell?
They can't pinpoint you because the images constantly shift.
Edit: Whoops that is what they did in AD&D, and I just looked it up on on PFSRD. There is no text saying the images shift. Still I haven't left alot of AD&D conventions, even after 10 years of playing. I always played it like the images shift around you, so even if you hit the caster, the images reshuffle around him.
It seems pretty clear to me that since the Mirror Image spell says it only affects attacks requiring an attack roll, and Magic Missile doesn't require an attack roll, the Magic Missiles would hit the real wizard and not disrupt any of the illusions.
There do seem to be some grey areas regarding things like the Barbarian readying an action to hit the wizard struck by the magic missiles, or cleaving through the illusions. I think the real answer here is that it comes down to what the GM rules on the matter.
And I think that the question the GM should ask him or herself is: Is this good for the game? Is it more fun to have the Barbarian Great Cleave through a bunch of illusions, or to have his attack fail because he chose the wrong target? Personally, I would probably vary my ruling depending on how often the Barbarian player got to use his Great Cleave that he spent two feats on (probably not very often), how difficult the fight was up to that point, how badly injured the Party is, etc.
Remember, the point is to have fun! The only way to lose is to not have a good time!
My objection to allowing the Barbarian to hit the mirror imaged caster is that the purpose of the spell is SPecifically for martial defense. If I was a player, and you allowed a barbarian to hit me, I would have to fight this.
There is a problem with applying logic to illogical spells. Spells are by their nature rules breaking. They give a benefit by bending a rule somewhere. In game I imagine magic just breaking physics.
If a spell offers a defense against a particular attack, I don't think exceptions should be allowed. As the GM ofcourse you can do whatever you want to the encounter, but doing that to a PC would surely cause an argument.
You can strike many adjacent foes with a single blow.Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
The wizard is the only foe -- the images are not foes, simply copies of the foe -- as such you can't target the images with great cleave. What's more you can't target the wizard more than once because great cleave specifically states you can't.
The images are also targets of the attack, A.K.A. foes. You don't actually target the images, the mirror image spell causes you to target the images.
No it doesn't -- you can't target the images -- you target the mage -- read the spell:
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
You never roll to hit the images -- you only roll to hit the mage -- if you hit the mage then you check and see if an image is hit.
So it's attack the mage -- if hit then check for image or not.
The images aren't foes, you can't target the images because they aren't foes, you can only target the mage, as such you cannot great cleave the images.
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If a wizard cast magic missile (5 missiles) against a wizard with 4 images, then I think all the combatants, including the caster of MM, would seem to see 25 missiles hit 5 targets - each target would appear to be hit by 5 missiles. The missiles would not be fooled by the images, but the caster of the missiles would be fooled. The mirror image caster and the 4 images would all react in exactly the same way.
At least, that's my thought. As anyone reading these messageboards can attest, I have often been wrong.
You are not reading the spell correctly. The spell clearly says that whenever the caster is targeted, there is a possibility that the attack targeted an image instead. If you hit the AC of the caster, you roll randomly to see if you targeted the caster, or an image. If you targeted an image (and hit), you can use great cleave to attack another target in reach. You try to target the caster. If you hit the caster's AC, you roll randomly to see what you really targeted. Etc.The fighter might try to target the caster, but because of the mirror image spell they are rolling randomly to see what the actually targeted. It says that right in the spell description.
You are not reading cleave correctly.
First of all an image is not a foe which is a requirement of cleave. An image is figment that looks like the foe, and cleave requires foes to activate not images so great cleave does not work. Swinging for the caster(foe) and hitting an image(not a foe) does not work.Every time you swing you are going for the caster which is attacking him. The fact that you missed does not mean you did not attack him, and the feat states you can only attack a certain foe once per attack action.
Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike many adjacent foes with a single blow.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
You are not reading the spell correctly. The spell clearly says that whenever the caster is targeted, there is a possibility that the attack targeted an image instead. If you hit the AC of the caster, you roll randomly to see if you targeted the caster, or an image. If you targeted an image (and hit), you can use great cleave to attack another target in reach. You try to target the caster. If you hit the caster's AC, you roll randomly to see what you really targeted. Etc.The fighter might try to target the caster, but because of the mirror image spell they are rolling randomly to see what the actually targeted. It says that right in the spell description.
You are not reading cleave correctly.
First of all an image is not a foe which is a requirement of cleave. An image is figment that looks like the foe, and cleave requires foes to activate not images so great cleave does not work. Swinging for the caster(foe) and hitting an image(not a foe) does not work.
Whatever is targeted is a foe. If this were not true, all sorts of silliness would ensue. For example, you could not use training dummies when using great cleave, because they are not truly combatants. Of you could use great cleave to detect illusions, just target the suspected illusion with great cleave, and if the DM does not allow it (because it is not truly a foe), you know its an illusion.
There is no formal definition of 'foe' in pathfinder. So it just means 'something you are fighting'. If you target it, you are fighting it, therefore it is a foe.
Targeting something does not make it into a foe, any more than not targeting something makes it an ally. It makes it the target of the attack.
In the absence of a game-terms we go with the real life definition. If you look in the equipment section not everything is defined. Does that mean we just don't use those items?You can swing at an illusion, but it is not a foe, and in most illusions you should get will save when your sword has no affect on it, but that has nothing to do with mirror image and cleave because mirror image says you must target a foe not the normal attack rules.
Now the rules don't cover every possible situation so it only makes sense that if a goblin has a clone(illusion) beside him that you get your will save.
PS: I got to thinking that this has to have come up before.
I'll give it a shot, though...
The images created by mirror images shift and move about. You can't specifically target a single mirror image any more than you can specifically target the real thing that's protected by mirror image, and thus you wouldn't be able to use Cleave or Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack to specifically target the images.
Mirror image does not grant you extra attacks if you use one of these feats. If you attack a target protected by mirror image while using Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack, you interact with the spell in the same way as if you were just attacking a target with a normal attack.
You are not reading the spell correctly. The spell clearly says that whenever the caster is targeted, there is a possibility that the attack targeted an image instead. If you hit the AC of the caster, you roll randomly to see if you targeted the caster, or an image. If you targeted an image (and hit), you can use great cleave to attack another target in reach. You try to target the caster. If you hit the caster's AC, you roll randomly to see what you really targeted. Etc.
The fighter might try to target the caster, but because of the mirror image spell they are rolling randomly to see what the actually targeted. It says that right in the spell description.
Where are you even getting that you can target the image independently?
Think about this -- you don't know which is the image therefore you can't pick the image to attack. Each image is the mage or at least the possibility of the mage. What's more you can't independently pick out an image -- if you could you would simply ignore the images as a whole and simply attack the mage!
You are not reading the spell correctly. The spell clearly says that whenever the caster is targeted, there is a possibility that the attack targeted an image instead. If you hit the AC of the caster, you roll randomly to see if you targeted the caster, or an image. If you targeted an image (and hit), you can use great cleave to attack another target in reach. You try to target the caster. If you hit the caster's AC, you roll randomly to see what you really targeted. Etc.
The fighter might try to target the caster, but because of the mirror image spell they are rolling randomly to see what the actually targeted. It says that right in the spell description.
Where are you even getting that you can target the image independently?
Think about this -- you don't know which is the image therefore you can't pick the image to attack. Each image is the mage or at least the possibility of the mage. What's more you can't independently pick out an image -- if you could you would simply ignore the images as a whole and simply attack the mage!
You don't choose to target an image independently, the spell causes you to target either an image, or the real mage.
A quote from the spell:
"Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead."
So if you roll that the spell causes you to roll such that the attack targets an image, it does, and that image is your foe. If you destroy the image, you can target another foe within range.
A figment is as much as enemy as the darkness from a darkness spell is since both are just spell affects. Would a GM allow you to attack the darkness for the purpose of cleave?
If you hit the image then you failed to hit your target (the mage) and therefore cannot swing again.
If you hit the image then you failed to hit your target (the mage) and therefore cannot swing again.But the mirror image spell specifically says that the target was not the mage, but an image.
No it didn't -- it said if you hit the mage then you roll to see if an image was hit instead -- if something other than your target is hit you missed the target. By default if you hit something that isn't what you were aiming for then you didn't hit what you were aiming for.
You were aiming for the mage -- that's why you rolled to hit the mage, but you didn't succeed, you hit an image, therefore you failed to hit the mage.
Which means you are done making attacks against the mage with cleave and even more so against anyone else since you missed the target.
This is abundantly clear if you read the next sentence which states:
If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.
Yes -- which wasn't your intended target -- as such you missed your intended target.
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.
In short if aim for the caster(that is who the "you") is referring to an image might be destroyed.
Aiming for an image does not destroy an image.
Now since the only way to destroy an image is to attack the caster, and you can only attack the caster once per the wording of the cleave feat then cleave does not work.
You roll to hit -- if you hit you roll to see if you hit the mage or the image -- if you hit the image you plainly did not hit a foe, if you do not hit a foe you don't get to swing again -- if you hit the foe you may not swing at him again.
In both cases you still don't get another swing.
Yes -- which wasn't your intended target -- as such you missed your intended target.Intention does not have anything to do with what the target of the attack is. If the great cleave user hits the target of their attack, they can attack another (non-targeted) adjacent opponent. Since the caster was not, in fact, targeted, and since the caster is adjacent to their image, the great cleave user can try to target them. Of course the great cleave user might not end up targeting the caster due to the mirror image.
If you attack the caster and miss then you still attacked the caster. Otherwise nothing happens since the spell is based off of attacking the caster. When the caster is attacked either he is hit or an image is popped.
If you miss the caster then you can't even target the images to get a result because the spell says when the caster is attacked a random roll is made to see who is hit.
If you hit the caster then cleave prevents you from targeting him again, and once again targeting an image gets no results.
Put another way: The spell states that to pop an image you must attack the caster so obviously the intent for the spell is to protect against attacks made against the caster.
In case you missed it:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.
There is no way around that. It does not say when you or an image is aimed for/attacked. You may think we are being too literal, but if so just hit the FAQ button but I am sure you will get the same answer James Jacobs made.
lol... This sounds like the kind of merry-go-round discussions I have to listen to when I attend those meetings at work.
Magic Missile always hits the target, bypassing Mirror Image every time.
One cannot Cleave/Great Cleave an image. As stated above, you attack the caster by rolling your d20. If you score a hit, then roll d5 (or whatever) to determine if you hit the real caster or one of his images (for us 1 is ALWAYS the caster). If by chance you hit the real caster, then you can use Cleave to hit another enemy (say the enemy cleric) in an adjecent square. If you hit an image, you effectively miss the caster, but dispel one of his images. End of turn.
Ultradan
Yes -- which wasn't your intended target -- as such you missed your intended target.Intention does not have anything to do with what the target of the attack is. If the great cleave user hits the target of their attack, they can attack another (non-targeted) adjacent opponent. Since the caster was not, in fact, targeted, and since the caster is adjacent to their image, the great cleave user can try to target them. Of course the great cleave user might not end up targeting the caster due to the mirror image.If you attack the caster and miss then you still attacked the caster. Otherwise nothing happens since the spell is based off of attacking the caster. When the caster is attacked either he is hit or an image is popped.
If you miss the caster then you can't even target the images to get a result because the spell says when the caster is attacked a random roll is made to see who is hit.
If you hit the caster then cleave prevents you from targeting him again, and once again targeting an image gets no results.
Put another way: The spell states that to pop an image you must attack the caster so obviously the intent for the spell is to protect against attacks made against the caster.
In case you missed it:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.There is no way around that. It does not say when you or an image is aimed for/attacked. You may think we are being too literal, but if so just hit the FAQ button but I am sure you will get the same answer James Jacobs made.
It does in fact say that the image is the target of the attack. The target of the attack is your foe. Therefore, if you hit the image, you can target something in reach that you didn't target.
Not only is this interpretation following the letter of rules, it is also the best for...
The person you attack is the person you aim for. The fact that you miss them does not make it not an attack on them. If you have the blink spell up, and you "blink out" so the a spell I cast misses does that mean I did not attack you. Let's say I have the bouncing spell feat attached so it goes to one of your party members after missing you.
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You can think of Mirror image as a variant on blur, but with a variable miss rate.
At the lowest level you have just about an 83% chance to miss the target.
The big advantage to the attacker for mirror image is that it is easier to get rid of then blur (if you at least hit the casters AC or if you miss the caster AC by 5 or less, you lower the miss percentage).