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Those monsters get bonuses to disguise checks, not automatic surprise rounds. Disguise checks are opposed by Perception, and around we go ;)
Whoaaa nelly. I'm not saying anyone gets automatic surprise rounds by this method (the only way i'd allow that is a ghost popping out of the walls or something) But surprise VIA deception (disguise or bluff) is perfectly valid.
But someone that see's a cloaker is aware of it. They're aware it's there. They just don't know that its a danger. So they get a perception roll and if they fail they're surprised.
How is that different than an assassin masquerading as peasant number 7 on a crowded street? They're aware it's there. They just don't know that its a danger. So they get a perception roll and if they fail they're surprised.
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How is that different than an assassin masquerading as peasant number 7 on a crowded street? They're aware it's there. They just don't know that its a danger. So they get a perception roll and if they fail they're surprised.
Yes, this is my position as well. 'Why' you are unaware isn't really relevant.
Though I do stipulate that this must have been considered a corner case by the rules. They simply don't seem to cover it very well at all.
Yeah a ghost popping out of a wall and attacking someone right near it would be surprise. As long as they weren't moaning a lot, the wall was complete and didn't have holes to see the ghost closing. Actually a dm ran this in a game I was in, the ghost got surprise (it ate our feet).
Another one was an umber hulk hidden in an area above a door, with a drop chute so he can fall on a person approaching the door. Players approached, didn't check for traps or make a perception. Character leapt forward at the door, umber hulk stepped off fell about 12 feet and splattered the adventurer. The drop and weight of the fall was an attack in the surprise round, the drop was a readied action (hulk had crawled up there when it heard the other hulks being killed).
Player alas should have cautiously advanced, checked for traps/made perception, found the hole in the dark dungeon ceiling by directing their torch/search again. Corner cases do come in, especially if some foes are intelligent or quick to anger.
Your character may be surprised by the attack, but it doesn't happen in a surprise round. The rules are clear on that.
So, what you are saying is that the attack came as a surprise but didn't occur during the surprise round. Meaning say a stealthing rogue leaps out at passer-by and then pauses as the passer-by is shocked by this. Waits just long enough for the surprise to wear off and attacks. This then causes initiative to be rolled etc. How is that surprise then? We are talking about surprise and not delayed surprise or delayed shock reaction are we?
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Don't know the enemy is there; enemy gets a single action in the surprise round.
Knows the enemy is there, but the enemy beats you on initiative; flat-footed.
Flat-footed is plenty adequate IMO. If you have invested lots of dex and a feat into initiative, you have superhuman reflexes and react in less than a second, which means "suddenly combat" is common fare for you.
Giving surprise to someone who is visible = breaking the rules, and kicking game balance in the groin. If I plat a lv9 rogue that is allowed to not only get a surprise action off, but then compete for initiative, I could freely deliver 5d4+25d8+whatever (quickdraw daggers on surprise, one Sneak attack, +4 attacks on my turn) before the other dude even got to react. If I was a fighter, 8d6+60 (Vital strike, then two attacks). If I was a wizard, the entire encounter would be won. How is that fair?
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To me, making checks ISN'T part of playing the character. Getting into character, roleplaying, and making decisions IC is part of playing the character. The checks are just background noise detailing where you succeed and where you fail. "I'm totally sense motiving this guy" is so jarring to me. Speaking super casually might have a -5 or -4 penalty, speaking normally might be a -2, speaking slightly cautiously would probably be +/- 0, and focusing solely on that person would probably be a +2. But again, the character isn't making a check. The check is happening Out of Character to determine whether or not the character notices.
That's my take, as well.
The Player directs the character to do something.The Character attempts it, to the best of their ability.
NOT to the best of the Player's ability (and that applies regardless of whether the Player would be better or worse).
If the Player is inexperienced, shy, dyslexic, or embarrassed about roleplay, does that mean their CHA 22 Bard with maxed out social skills in a dozen languages must also be assumed to speak in a halting monotone?
If the Player is a genius, does that mean they can dump the mental stats of every PC they play, since they can count on the GM adjudicating all skill checks in their favor, based on the quality of the Player's metagame decisions and (over-)detailed description of their PCs action?
The player has already made an investment (or not) in their PC's mental stats, in skills such as Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and any knowledge skills relevant to the creature being interacted with, and/or the subject being discussed. He already has modifiers for Favored Enemy, Stern Gaze, or other traits.
All of these choices, despite being made out of session, during character creation, or while levelling up, are signals to the GM, of how that PC carries themself, how they choose to interact with others, as a typical, default, way.
Whatever his Diplomacy bonus, is how diplomatic he is, at all times.
Whatever his Bluff bonus, is how convincing he is, at all times.
Whatever his Intimidate bonus, is how intimidating he is, at all times.
Whatever his Sense Motive bonus, is how cautiously suspicious he is, at all times.
Whatever his Knowledge bonus, is how much he knows about the subject in discussion.
As such, all those skills are considered to be default values, and are always 'switched on'. There is no need to 'activate' them, or 'initiate' them, or 'declare' them.
The player already telegraphed his intent to use all of the above, when he announced he is entering into conversation with an NPC.
Someone with a bonus to any of those skills, presumably practices them off-screen whenever they can; that's how they got the bonus. As such, is it a stretch to assume they will default to such behaviour, when the spotlight is on them in a game session?
Another one was an umber hulk hidden in an area above a door, with a drop chute so he can fall on a person approaching the door.
If the umber hulk can hear the party coming then the party could theoretically hear the umber hulk coming down the pipe or shuffling around up top. There's a lot of penalties, but that's still stealth vs perception.
Players approached, didn't check for traps or make a perception.
Players shouldn't have to ask for a perception roll. If there's something they can spot you're supposed to give it. The DM is the players only portal into a world that exists mostly in the DM's head, withholding information
Its an open chute the size of an umber hulk, the perception check for something that big is -1.
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To me, making checks ISN'T part of playing the character. Getting into character, roleplaying, and making decisions IC is part of playing the character. The checks are just background noise detailing where you succeed and where you fail. "I'm totally sense motiving this guy" is so jarring to me. Speaking super casually might have a -5 or -4 penalty, speaking normally might be a -2, speaking slightly cautiously would probably be +/- 0, and focusing solely on that person would probably be a +2. But again, the character isn't making a check. The check is happening Out of Character to determine whether or not the character notices.That's my take, as well.
The Player directs the character to do something.
The Character attempts it, to the best of their ability.
NOT to the best of the Player's ability (and that applies regardless of whether the Player would be better or worse).
If the Player is inexperienced, shy, dyslexic, or embarrassed about roleplay, does that mean their CHA 22 Bard with maxed out social skills in a dozen languages must also be assumed to speak in a halting monotone?
If the Player is a genius, does that mean they can dump the mental stats of every PC they play, since they can count on the GM adjudicating all skill checks in their favor, based on the quality of the Player's metagame decisions and (over-)detailed description of their PCs action?The player has already made an investment (or not) in their PC's mental stats, in skills such as Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and any knowledge skills relevant to the creature being interacted with, and/or the subject being discussed. He already has modifiers for Favored Enemy, Stern Gaze, or other traits.
All of these choices, despite being made out of session, during character creation, or while levelling up, are signals to the GM, of how that PC carries themself, how they choose to interact with others, as a typical, default, way.
Whatever his Diplomacy bonus, is how diplomatic he is, at...
+1
Also, just to add, there is a section in Sense motive just for this situation:
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.
The DC is 20 for a "hunch"
But someone that see's a cloaker is aware of it. They're aware it's there. They just don't know that its a danger. So they get a perception roll and if they fail they're surprised.
How is that different than an assassin masquerading as peasant number 7 on a crowded street? They're aware it's there. They just don't know that its a danger. So they get a perception roll and if they fail they're surprised.
forum tip: check out the "How to format your text" for how to quote somebody.
I agree it is very similar. The situations are a bit different though. In one case, by failing your perception check you fail to notice that a creature is present. You think the creature is an object. In the other case, you know a creature is there and are likely paying attention to the creature's movements. You simply aren't aware that he is about to hit you.
Incidentally, though it probably doesn't follow the rules, these trap-like creatures are probably best run as haunts. They would go on their initiative in the surprise round by default and anybody who passes a perception check vs. their disguise could also go in the surprise round.
Whatever his Diplomacy bonus, is how diplomatic he is, at all times.
Whatever his Bluff bonus, is how convincing he is, at all times.
Whatever his Intimidate bonus, is how intimidating he is, at all times.
Whatever his Sense Motive bonus, is how cautiously suspicious he is, at all times.
Whatever his Knowledge bonus, is how much he knows about the subject in discussion.As such, all those skills are considered to be default values, and are always 'switched on'. There is no need to 'activate' them, or 'initiate' them, or 'declare' them.
The player already telegraphed his intent to use all of the above, when he announced he is entering into conversation with an NPC.
They are not always 'switched on' at all. Your character is not constantly spamming bluff or knowledge checks, you choose when you make those, for bluff who you are trying to trick, seduce, feint.
If you love the rules so much, you can tell me where it says "As such, all those skills are considered to be default values, and are always 'switched on'. There is no need to 'activate' them, or 'initiate' them, or 'declare' them."
Really, you never have to declare a bluff, intimidate, sense motive or knowledge check? A character never has to say what they are doing, declare it, declare which of their skills they are trying to use specifically, or to what ends?
On the skills, the checks and the bonus and how good they are, you forgot something.
"Whatever his Bluff bonus, is how convincing he is, at all times."
You forgot what the random rolls says about how skilled or convincing or perceptive they are. It really varies from situation to situation, when the checks do come up.
On making checks you've also forgotten, that making checks takes actions and time. Searching for traps, watching really carefully for enemies, stealthing, trying to recall what you know about an area, place, thing, people, plant, dungeon etc, and scrutinizing the motives of all those around you for any hostility, that will really slow you down. That is a large number of checks your always switched on character is trying to do simultaneously. You can not do all of them in a round. You can not do all of them and move--make a perception, stealth, bluff and sense motive and a knowledge: nature check (all knowledge checks at the same time as well?) while in the wilderness, and move? No. They are not all switched on, players must declare what they are doing, they can describe it, and roll the relevant skills. They must activate them, except for some in specific circumstances, which they get as a reactive check. When you get a reactive check, say a perception to pick up a stealth, you don't also get a sense motive, and a relevant knowledge, and a stealth of your own, and a bluff. Because they are not all on, all the time.
You say given, I say they take it--they make it.
By trying to do something, they are declaring their actions, making actions. The names of the skills can be renamed remember? You can call bluff manipulation or cunning. When your character is using their cunning, making a bluff, they make their check. Their bluff is not on all the time.
If their bluff was on all the time, who are they using the bluff on? How? Why? It makes no sense. Diplomacy isn't on if you are quietly going through the woods, solo or in a team where no one is talking. "C'mon ranger buddies love me!" "Shhhhhhh."
"If circumstances dictate that he should be able to perceive something is off in another person (most often when they are using the bluff skill, though there are other circumstances as well) he is GIVEN a Sense Motive roll."
I don't argue with the sense motive to counter bluffs. That isn't what my argument is. What I was saying now, after finishing my prior argument that surprise is possible in unusual circumstances, is that while some checks are reactive to a specific other check, bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate, and all the knowledges are not 'switched on' all the time. The character would not be able to move anywhere, lost in thought and observations The players get the choice on which one they are using, and yes, they might describe it out more and then make the relevant check. You can roleplay it, you can describe it, you can declare it--one of these still has to be done to use a skill not reacting to another skill.
To the example of knowledge. A character passes an old dungeon wall carving, some writing. Now if he has a relevant knowledge, he can stop, check it out, ponder, make the knowledge check. This takes time and focus (there may be a lot to take-in, read, decipher, perhaps with linguistics and knowledge together). If the player doesn't stop and check that out, they can't get much information. If they continue they can't make their check as they move away from it and out of visibility. They can't make the check while stealthing forward and making perceptions on the tunnel ahead. Five or ten or twenty skills are not on simultaneously.
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To the example of knowledge. A character passes an old dungeon wall carving, some writing. Now if he has a relevant knowledge, he can stop, check it out, ponder, make the knowledge check. This takes time and focus (there may be a lot to take-in, read, decipher, perhaps with linguistics and knowledge together). If the player doesn't stop and check that out, they can't get much information. If they continue they can't make their check as they move away from it and out of visibility. They can't make the check while stealthing forward and making perceptions on the tunnel ahead. Five or ten or twenty skills are not on simultaneously.
To go with this example, what triggers the character to know that they have the relevant knowledge skill to even want to stop to check it out?
This is a case where, because the character has the right knowledge skill, the GM needs to provide more info automatically, before the player states that he is stopping to check it out. Note, you do not have to tell them everything, just that something about that carving reminds them of something they read once.
For example, if that writing was an arcane symbol (we will say DC 15 kn check) a character with a bonus to knowledge: arcane of +14 should have some idea of what it is just be glancing at it. Heck any character with arcane knowledge should get some hint from the GM that this is a time to use it.
In the case of the speaker who is about to swing with "no warning". A character who is trained in sense motive, should have a hint from the GM to either A) roll it now, or B) the GM rolls it. Either way, the player has spent points into a skill that is part of their character. As a GM, not allowing them to use it, is taking away from the chance for the player to better role play out the situation.
As I said, I would be tempted to either use bluff vs. sense motive, or use the "hunch" part of sense motive (and as a GM roll in secret) to see if the PC gets a spike of intuition.
Yeah for sneaky attacks from the front, it is normally sense motive to pick up their deception--bluff. Normally.
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
How can you be unaware of a person you know is there, you are looking at, you are talking to? And if your interpretation of aware is knowing they are hostile, then ambushes are kind of broken. Why stealth when disguise or bluff is just as good? Does it really make sense that someone in full view attacking you gets a free shot the same as if they were sniping you? I don’t think so. And using that reasoning, wouldn’t sense motive checks be required to start almost every battle? Besides, talk about an impossible bluff check – please ignore the whole attacking you thing... I’m totally friendly dude.
Because you need cover to stealth and those skills have other uses. Sure bluff and disguise are substitutes for stealth in many scenarios where stealth is not feasible, but keeping people unaware you are there is not one of them. I mean if your opponent isn’t aware of you how exactly could you bluff them? And yes when stealthed disguise is irrelevant.
I just don’t see how ‘logically’ you can disguise or bluff your way past the obvious (obvious as in you can see and hear it happening) fact that a person is attacking you. You can see it coming vs. you can’t see it coming is just cut and dry for me. It happens in movies goes both ways. Badasses dodge sucker punches, that is how you know they are badass ;P.
No it's because they made their sense motive check ;P (Or perception in the case of Disguise)
Fair enough.
But, I have to sense the motive behind your fist traveling toward my face? I don’t think so. And what does it matter if I think you are my mother or a demon? An attack is an attack. I may react differently depending on who I think you are, but that is not the same as not seeing it.
That's the thing, by the time you see it, it's already coming at you if you didn't already know they were going to swing in the first place.
Yes, of course. Not disputing that at all. You don’t see it coming until it is coming. It is a matter of how quickly you act – which is precisely the purpose of the initiative mechanic.
By the time you see it (assuming you failed to perceive their threat) they already have made (or are currently making) their attack roll. At least in my games, initiative is rolled after everyone is aware of a fight.
This is the sticking point. So how does everyone become aware of a fight? Successful sense motive checks or free suckerpunch, whichever comes first – is that right? Bluff can be used untrained, so why don’t intelligent opponents use it all time (at least every time they are not ambused by the party the old fashioned stealthy way)? I mean it seems they would right? What reason is there not to if it gives them a free chance at a surprise round? There is literally no drawback because if they fail the bluff, they just don’t get a free attack and things play out exactly like they would have without the bluff check.
Nothing wrong with y’all doing it the way you prefer, I houserules things too, but this is in the rules questions forum. And the rules state aware of your opponent, not aware of a fight.
Because you need cover to stealth and those skills have other uses. Sure bluff and disguise are substitutes for stealth in many scenarios where stealth is not feasible, but keeping people unaware you are there is not one of them. I mean if your opponent isn’t aware of you how exactly could you bluff them? And yes when stealthed disguise is irrelevant.I just don’t see how ‘logically’ you can disguise or bluff your way past the obvious (obvious as in you can see and hear it happening) fact that a person is attacking you. You can see it coming vs. you can’t see it coming is just cut and dry for me. It happens in movies goes both ways. Badasses dodge sucker punches, that is how you know they are badass ;P.
D&D isn't the movies though. The logics are quite different, some of the tropes are the same, but the hero is not guaranteed to win, survive or save the day in a dnd game. That orc can crit them at first level. They can have a horrible day rolling and snuff it.
On the surprise rules. Good to see them up here. Yep, surprise can happen. There are multiple sentences on it. Not aware, blamo! Most of the time you will get sense motive, or perception. Sometimes not possible, or, on massive penalties as determined by the dm (the assassin finally tracks you down, mid-way through your post-dungeon celebratory bash--while you are dressed up as an orc shaman, disguise check of -3, and drunk).
Not aware, no going on the surprise round, alas they get that one attack (or you do, whatever the situation). Then initiative.
"And the rules state aware of your opponent, not aware of a fight"
Being aware someone is the opponent is crucial. Do you have an opportunity to identify them as an opponent?
On bandit ambushes. A troop of rogue/bards with a great bluff and a poor stealth could use bluff to set up their ambushes instead. Pretend to be fixing a wagon, act friendly, assault the party or lone traveler with mallets and whatever they could get into their hands without being too suspicious.
Troubled adventurer: and before I knew it, these friendly traveling musicians, were all over me, beating me with mallets and lumps of wood. Then the worst part? They started singing, and kept wailing on me!
That's my conclusion too. Now if they were really cautious about npcs, and they said this, yeah, they haven't lowered their guard.
Course really making a lot of sense motives on everyone could actually start a brawl.
NPC: what are you looking at?
When Han shot Greedo, was it a surprise round or the first round of combat?
surprise round.
NPC: what are you looking at?PC: *punches NPC* Surprise round!
npc casts spell. PC fails save. Instant death. New character starts being genned.......
Lol.
NPC: what are you looking at?PC: *punches NPC* Surprise round!
Yeah, they could indeed get a surprise round. Course if someone is really watching them, getting themselves ready for hostility, it may not be surprise. The npc is identifying a possible combatant after all.
The Han Greedo thing is more typical to me. They were looking at each-other, they knew s%%~ was going down, one was making threats. That is more initiative to me. Han wins, Han gets sneak. Greedo doesn't get to his turn.
Now imagine Han was talking to Obi-wan, Greedo walks over and punches Han straight in the face mid-sentence while Han is talking about his ship. That is surprise. :)