|
So, I was asking myself why the fighter was the best at being dirty in combat... and reading all those "Rogues suck" threads, I wondered how you could give a little something to the rogue/ninja as to make it a class every player would want in his group, whatever the campaign.
In roleplay/gaming terms, the Saboteur is a master at crippling ennemies, whether directly, or by hitting vital infrastructures ; and it quickly fills a debuffer/battlefield control role, including higher sneaky infiltration skills.
I hope you'll love it enough to play it or wish one was in your group, and if you feel like it, please evaluate and critique honestly ! :)
Saboteur
Some inconspicuous professionals don't rely on exceptional instinct and dodge skills to face danger. Instead, they deal with foes the quick and dirty way, putting luck on their side through every means available. These saboteurs are a destructive force to be reckoned with. Often paid by private forces to infiltrate strongholds or enemy camps to deal with guards and sabotage important machineries, saboteurs can skillfully scuttle the path to anyone lucky enough to have them on their side... even more so in an adventurers group, where their ability to make any fight easier through crippling low blows proves more valuable every day.
Sabotage (Ex)
At 2nd level, a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier (if any), a saboteur may attempt a Dirty Trick, Sunder, or Steal combat maneuver against an enemy hit by her sneak attack. This attempt doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Additionally, a saboteur may use her Disable Device bonus instead of her normal combat maneuver bonus when using these maneuvers.
This ability replaces evasion, or the ninja trick gained at second level.
Devastating Sneak (Ex)
At 4th level, a saboteur may apply the effects of two different rogue or ninja talents marked with an asterisk to a single sneak attack.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Cursing Sneak (Ex)
At 8th level, a saboteur may select one of the following witch hexes instead of a rogue or ninja talent whenever she gains a new talent : Charm, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Scar, Slumber, Unnerve Beasts. Once per round, the saboteur may choose to deal no damage during a sneak attack to inflict a hex to the target she hits as if it was a talent marked with an asterisk. At level 16, she may select one of the following major hexes in place of an advanced talent : Agony, Infected Wounds, Nightmare, Retribution.
The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier.
Using a hex during a sneak attack is a supernatural ability.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the saboteur archetype: befuddling strike, bleeding attack, distracting attack, offensive defense, powerful sneak, ninja trick and slow reactions.
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the saboteur archetype: confounding blades, crippling strike, deadly sneak, dispelling attack, and entanglement of blades.
Replacing the first time a class gets their Menu Choice Option (in this case, the ninja trick) is a nerf, since it means they can't get Extra Whatever until the next time. Are you sure that is deliberate?
I don't see the part where they are effective against infrastructure as well?
Oh, there it is. last line of Sabotage.
I think it should be 1+mInt too.
Cursing Strike is really...weird. I'm guessing you think the same thing.
If ever there's a class that should just straight up get abilities for free, it's the rogue.
My recommendations:
Still thinking about a replacement for the 8th level ability. I really don't see how hexes fit this, at all.
I love the idea and the framework you already have!
|
I read saboteur and thought bombs and alchemist. That might work better as a prestige class though.
I think Sabotage as written is largely broken. A second level fighter with an 18 Strength has a CMB of +6. A second level Saboteur with a Dexterity of 18 has a CMB for Sabotage of +9 (Dex, ranks and class skill). And that is without skill focus or other feats or traits to raise the skill value.
|
|
Wow, thanks for the review Cheapy, I always especially value your comments on game design. :)
Actually, I did this one out of boredom and inspiration surge close to 02:00 AM, and it is only when I got to bed that I suddenly saw all the mistakes, typos or editing oversights I could have made despite reading myself several times. And I saw a lot of them.
1) Replacing the ninja trick was deliberate, until I was trying to sleep, and I remembered that it basically didn't give them the class feature. I found the saboteur to be a flavorful archetype for both core and alternate classes, even though the ninja trades sheer sabotage skills for better infiltration...
I think I should make Sabotage a trick the ninja may select at level 2.
2) The vanilla rogue is already efficient against infrastructures or useful mechanisms thanks to the Disable Device skill and Trapfinding = these allow to sabotage something and have bonuses to do it. The saboteur archetype puts it further, by allowing the rogue to literally sabotage ennemies.
But I indeed thought about the fact a saboteur didn't seem to be better against infrastructures in themselves, maybe through Sunder or an improved form of Trapfinding... alas, including it involved to change other class features for design coherence, or didn't fit into the global archetype balance by giving too much. I generally tend to aim for low power but strikingly cool features at first. It should be incluable now through some modifications !
3) Cursing Strike is indeed a bit weird, but is supposed to basically give you the ability to "curse" an enemy with some kind of awful bad luck twice a round, thanks to the level 4 ability. It was fitting the concept of someone able to single-handedly deal with one or several foes by putting luck on his side, but should maybe still deal damage, since at first it was usable whenever possible. I could see a saboteur slapping a guard's head and "Charm" him by doing as if nothing happened or convinving him not to tell anything, or returning a hound master's dogs against their master.
Here are some changes to the archetype. Once I get the abilities right thanks to your help and a bit more personal reflexion, I'll post it again in full form. During this time, I'll write the Mime bard archetype I've been wanting to see...
Sabotage (Ex)
At 2nd level, a number of times per day equal to 1 + her Intelligence modifier (if any), a saboteur may attempt a Dirty Trick, Sunder, or Steal combat maneuver against an enemy hit by her sneak attack. This attempt doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
For the purposes of these three combat maneuvers, she gains a +1 bonus for every two sneak attack dice she possesses. This is whether she is using the sabotage ability or not.
Finally, the saboteur may add her Knowledge(engineering) ranks to any Disable Device check made to disable or hurt an object and to any Sunder damage roll, she may also substitute her Intelligence modifier to her Strength modifier when attempting a Strength check to break an object.
This ability replaces evasion, or can be selected as a ninja trick by a ninja.
Devastating Sneak (Ex)
At 4th level, a saboteur may apply the effects of two different rogue or ninja talents marked with an asterisk to a single sneak attack.
In addition, a ninja adds all rogue talents marked with an asterisk to her list of ninja tricks, and a rogue adds all ninja talents marked with an asterisk to her list of rogue tricks.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
No Witnesses (Ex)
At 8th level, a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier, a saboteur may draw a weapon as an immediate action, and deal full damage on a sneak attack made during the surprise round. She does not need to roll the additional damage of her sneak attack, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
|
|
I read saboteur and thought bombs and alchemist. That might work better as a prestige class though.
I think Sabotage as written is largely broken. A second level fighter with an 18 Strength has a CMB of +6. A second level Saboteur with a Dexterity of 18 has a CMB for Sabotage of +9 (Dex, ranks and class skill). And that is without skill focus or other feats or traits to raise the skill value.
Thanks for highlighting the problem. I think it isn't so bad in the original version though, since said fighter also has lots of feats and class features improving said maneuvers and a lot of others, including full BAB, good damage and several bonuses. Being good at it's own thing isn't so bad in my opinion, but I changed the class feature to follow the writting I did for the Dandy rogue archetype : +1 to CMB for every 2 sneak attack dices.
Basically, it makes you equal to a fighter while being one level late, but hitting flat-footed/flanked ennemies more often put you to the advantage.Still thinking about the free feat at level 6, I thought about making it the original level 8 ability and even though I could totally see how it is useful and every rogue would want the free candy, it maybe changes a bit too much from official archetypes by being "too" generous ?
(Also, I don't like prestige classes, and don't feel secure enough with balance to write one either. :p)
Ah, that's what you were going for with it! Charm does make sense then. Not so sure about the others.
As I implied, personally I think the rogue should be the best at something! If it's breaking non-bones (that's a job for AM BARBARIAN), that's great!
One thing I have seen is will save or be silenced when struck by Sneak Attack. Limited number of times per day, of course. It fits mechanically, but not fluffwise! I suppose you could use that jawbreaker feat? Or slit a throat of a flatfooted guy, so he can't raise the alarm? Well, he also couldn't raise the alarm since you disabled it :)
And thanks!
|
|
Alas, the lack of some silencing ability is indeed something I had to deal with, since it seems the most efficient way to deal with a guard is to silence him the definite way, or maybe through the Sap Master feats...
Getting back to this thread later. Now that I posted the Mime, I'll need at least some hours to refresh my mind. :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some changes applied :
- Sabotage is back to full BAB + bonus from sneak damage dice + full BAB for the purpose of feats like Greater/Quick maneuver ; thus allowing an early choosing of these feats, and making the saboteur equal if not better at low-to-mid levels for Dirty Trick/Sunder/Steal than a fighter.
- No Witnesses gives the option to silence greatly an enemy at the cost of bonus damage.
Sabotage (Ex)
At 2nd level, a number of times per day equal to 1 + her Intelligence modifier (if any), a saboteur may attempt a Dirty Trick, Sunder, or Steal combat maneuver against an enemy hit by her sneak attack. This attempt doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
For the purposes of these three combat maneuvers, she gains a +1 bonus for every two sneak attack dice she possesses and treats her saboteur level as her Base Attack Bonus, including for the purpose of qualifying for feats improving these combat maneuvers. This is whether she is using the sabotage ability or not.
Finally, the saboteur may add her Knowledge(engineering) ranks to any Disable Device check made to disable or hurt an object and to any Sunder damage roll, she may also substitute her Intelligence modifier to her Strength modifier when attempting a Strength check to break an object.
This ability replaces evasion, or can be selected as a ninja trick by a ninja.
Devastating Sneak (Ex)
At 4th level, a saboteur may apply the effects of two different rogue or ninja talents marked with an asterisk to a single sneak attack.
In addition, a ninja adds all rogue talents marked with an asterisk to her list of ninja tricks, and a rogue adds all ninja talents marked with an asterisk to her list of rogue tricks.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
No Witnesses (Ex)
At 8th level, a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier, a saboteur may draw a weapon as an immediate action, and deal full damage on a sneak attack made during the surprise round. She does not need to roll the additional damage of her sneak attack, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage.
The saboteur may choose to deal normal damage on this sneak attack to cripple that opponent’s mouth or throat, dealing normal damage, plus 1d4 points of bleed damage. Until the bleed damage ends, the target is unable to use its mouth to attack, shout, and employ verbal spell components. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible mouth is immune to the effects of this class ability.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
|
|
Note : the final version of the Saboteur archetype is accessible here.
Slight addition to the No Witnesses ability, and globally, the archetype fully formated.