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Alright, so I’ve been kicking a bard archer idea around in my head for a bit and wanted to lay out some plans here and get some feedback / learn some new tricks from some of the people here. Remember, we’re dealing with Pathfinder Society here so 20 point buy, max level 12, few other oddities that I’ll address as needed later if I feel a choice needs more explanation.
Basic idea: A very socially adept skill monkey bard with excellent buffing abilities and very respectable ranged damage abilities. What he won’t be is a save-or-die spell slinger or a melee combatant.
Race: While I like Halflings and Elves, given the very limited scope of feats in PFS play, it’s a human for me for the feat and skill point bonus. Floating +2 is always appreciated.
Ability Scores: 20 point buy results in:
Strength: 14
Dexterity: 16 (after racial +2)
Constitution: 12
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 14
Some explanations: Strength for damage and because I don’t plan to take arcane strike (explained in greater detail later) so I’ll need the damage boost here. Dexterity should be self-evident. Constitution because a bonus to fort saves and hp is always nice (and I plan on taking skill points for the favored class option). Intelligence because he’s a skill monkey. Wisdom I didn’t want to drop below 8 because in Pathfinder, failing will saves pretty much always sucks. Finally, Charisma is 14 because I plan on boosting it at levels four and eight to get a proper 16, then enhance it with a +2 Charisma ioun stone for the 18 I need to keep a bonus level 4 spell (the highest level spells I’ll get to in PFS play).
Skills: With the favored class bonus as a skill point, this character is looking at 10 skill points per level. Over the first four levels, I plan to get at least 1 rank in each knowledge skill, and over time build up to about 6 ranks in Arcana, Nature, Local, and Planes so he will be competent at all knowledge checks and very likely to identify and know something valuable during creature encounters.
Other than that, versatile performances will include Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive)at level 2 and Comedy (Bluff, Disguise) at 6, with Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) kicking in at level 10.
Headband bonuses will cover perception and, eventually, escape artist. Other than that, I intend to follow linguistics (character flavor and forgery for fun), stealth, and UMD closely. Odd choices I intend, skip intimidate, and have only 1 rank in climb (activate class skill) and 1 in spellcraft (with the intention being to have a wand of identify on hand if I need to start doing item identification). Oh, will also have a trait for ride as a class skill and should have a +17 or so modifier to it around level 10.
Feats:
Level 1: Point Blank
Human Bonus: Rapid Shot
3: Precise Shot
5: Deadly Aim
7: Skill Focus (Oratory) – WHAT, I know, I know, why isn’t arcane strike here. Remember, the idea here is a party and skill focused character, and this means +3 to my perform check (nice for distracting song if my party is befuddled by illusion as well as day job rolls) and bonus to two very important PFS skills, diplomacy and sense motive. That this increases to +6 at level 10 just about seals the deal for this concept over a +2 (+3 at level 11) increase in damage on each arrow. If this wasn’t PFS, arcane strike for sure, but that’s the reason I’m skipping strike (also, my BAB isn’t high enough for manyshot yet).
9: Manyshot (duh)
11: Now level 11 has all kinds of interesting options for feats, and I haven’t decided yet. Arcane Strike is of course very tempting, but consider a few other options as well. At this point his UMD skill is +21, so he can make many checks without much difficulty already, but skill focus in this would just seal the deal. Then, I noticed the prodigy feat, which gives +2 (+4 with 10 ranks) in any two craft, profession, or PERFORM skills. …….. oh BABY, another +4 to two perform skills in addition to diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, and disguise? With that you’d be looking at a +31 perform oratory and +25 perform dance at level 11. The extra damage from arcane strike would be sweet, but oh man is that tempting, and please throw out some other ideas I may not have considered (mounted combat is always interesting, and he’ll have a trait to make it a class skill and quite high by level 10 with plans to use a phantom steed).
Spells: I won’t go into exhaustive detail here, but some at each level I’m most interested in for skill/party aid benefits include:
Level 1: Grease, Innocence, liberating command, saving finale. Feather step and invigorate (and their mass versions) I like more as a scroll option.
Level 2: Glitterdust (stupid useful spell), honeyed tongue, mirror image, silence.
Level 3: Haste (of course), good hope (remember it stacks with inspire courage for hit and damage though not saves as that’s a moral bonus as well), glibness (oh yeah), phantom steed, and terrible remorse (depending on how cheesy I’m feeling even after the errata).
Level 4: Dimension door (cause rings of freedom are EXPENSIVE), freedom of movement
There are others I’m interested in but this makes up a list of spells I consider central to this character concept. Also, I plan on supplementing this with a freaking battery of scrolls across many classes, wands (mainly level 1 options), and plenty of potions.
Other thoughts: That lays out most of my plans so far, so here I thought I’d toss in some extra tidbits I was thinking of that just seem cool:
1. So I get a composite shortbow early in life, woohoo. Since I’ll likely skip arcane strike, my damage isn’t anything to write home about, but hey, lesser bracers of archery get me that longbow proficiency I’m after, and while that is only a slight bonus to damage output, the icing comes from using UMD to invoke scrolls of gravity bow. Now, instead of 1d6 damage on my shortbow, when I need it I’m rocking 2d6 per arrow damage on my gravitated long bow for a minute at a time. Won’t be always, but that’s a nice damage boost I should be able to swing more often than not.
2. Oil of weapon of awe: 3 minutes of +2 sacred bonus to damage on each arrow and target is auto shaken on a critical hit. Not bad for when I have a moment to prepare for combat.
3. Giving some thought to possibly doing the Animal Speaker archetype from Ultimate Magic since it doesn’t give up inspire courage (though you do lose lore master, inspire competence and well-versed). The gain is quite nice, though, and offers some fun options that might be worth the trade since I’m capped at level 12 here.
Wrapping it up: There are quite a few other ideas I’ll get to later thanks to UMD opening up all kinds of options, but let me leave this garbled mess here for now and see what discussion and ideas come about because I’ve been looking forward to playing a face/skill-based character and am quite interested in new ideas that we generate here.
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You are not going to get Perception from a Headband in PFS. Your headband of alluring charisma +2 takes that spot for 4K and eventually you will want the +4 version for 16K. While you may be able to upgrade from +2 Charisma to +2 Charisma +2 Intelligence, I don't think you can then upgrade to +4 Charisma, so you will not have a headband of intelligence.
I would take Precise Shot before Rapid Shot, I think it's more important to avoid the -4 penalty than to get an extra shot at an additional penalty when you can take a full round action.
My experience with PF bards has been that Versatile Performance is great when you can create a higher level character, but it forces you to either shortchange skills while you work towards the appropriate versatile performance or you waste skill points to be somewhat competent now although they will be lost once you attain versatile performance.
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Excellent, I love being able to discuss this with experienced bards!
First on versatile performance, my intent would be to activate the class skill bonus with a rank in some of the later versatile performance skills (like bluff and acrobatics) and retrain those points when I reached the level where VP kicked in. My defense of such rests in this thread.
Should that be shot down, then guess I'll suck it up and tough it out those levels.
Now with Charisma, I actually plan on skipping the Headband of Alluring Charisma (sacrilege, I know). The plan is to kick off with a 14 Charisma, boost it at levels 4 and 8, and then top it off to 18 with a +2 Charisma ioun stone (8k), there by freeing up my headband slot for one of the intelligence variety (likely up to +4) so he really covers a massive variety of skills.
Why would I want to that? Primarily because the 18 gets me a bonus spell at each level through my highest by max level, while staying the most cost effective as there are many other magic items I'd like to buy and I can't be sinking vast amounts of gold into a two-stat headband item. Also, I don't plan on slinging spells at enemies unless I can use them in ways that don't allow saves or are painful on successful saves (a la silence, terrible remorse, stone call scrolls, etc) because even with dirge of doom, getting my DC high enough saps more gold than I'd like to use, hence the focus instead of party buff spells.
As for precise shot, it's a toss up but 2 rolls at -6 (or -2 sometimes) vs. 1 roll at +0 (all before Dex, BAB, etc), since at such low levels I feel luck of the die makes the most difference in connecting or not so might as well roll twice.
Think I'm missing out on much tanking intimidate, sleight of hand, and spell craft (well, somewhat on this last one) or are these alright choices for skills to neglect?
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You are talking about a PFS character, so barring an official ruling to allow Bards to retrain skills, you are out of luck. I know more than a few PFS bards, so it's a viable class, but you may as well design your character with no hope of retraining.
Not maximizing Charisma affects your saving throw DC's, which may not be an issue. However, it also affects the number of rounds of bardic music per day. I think you will want lingering song at some point. I suspect that you will find that you never use half of your skills, but I see where your going with it.
Without precise shot, you are looking at a minimum of -4 when firing into melee. Your Dex isn't great, you don't have improved initiative, so you will have that penalty most of the time, even if you can't make a full-round attack action. But that's up to you.
Someone else will likely cover intimidate. Sleight of Hand is regularly used for missions for some factions, so as long as you pick a faction which is more displomacy oriented, you should be fine.
I still don't like archers with short bows. Is there a trait (half-elf racial) or otherwise to get you longbow proficiency? You are already planning on skill focus, so going half elf would not affect your total feats.
Since PFS caps at level 12, there is some room for you to multiclass to pick up longbow.
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I'd go for the 18 Dex / 12 Int / 7 Wis route, to improve life in general. Otherwise stats look right.
If you really want good skill points consider an instrument. They can be mastereworked, getting you a 100 GP +2 bonus to diplomacy/bluff/intimidate skills, without the skill focus.
In PFS without that skill focus you'll make any Diplomacy / Sense motive skills (especially with honey tongue)( you'll already be +20 or so, far more than necessary. Circlets of persuasion are cheap. I'd keep feats improving your archery skills, you already get too few.
Remember, announcing stupidly high #s on skills may seem cool, but once you can consistently 20, it's going to get you max effect.
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Good stuff!
Mike: Very right on that, and a lesson I take to heart (lesser bracers of archery for my longbow proficiency instead of blowing a feat on it for example). Yes, the circlet is very much in this character's immediate future.
Thalin: I was considering that build, but in the end the skill points and slightly less tanked will save won out for me (however, I do quite like that build option as well).
Now about the instrument, everything I've read regarding versatile performance indicates that equipment bonuses (ie. masterwork instruments) do NOT apply when using the versatile functions of each perform skill, and that instead equipment modifiers to that skill specifically win out (ie: boots of elven kind for acrobatics via dance, but not the instrument). Is this incorrect?
On skills, I do agree with you (I do feel some skills need ever-higher bonuses, like sense motive, bluff, and acrobatics), though aside from arcane strike I seem to be taking just about all of the archery feats I can really make effective use of. Did you have some recommendations (aside from some of discarded like vital strike, snap shot, far shot, and improved precise (only because I don't have the BAB for it)?
Sieylianna: Now there is a lot of good advice there, thank you! That's tough on skill ranks in versatile performance skills, but such is life, at least I know to expect it!
The heads up on sleight of hand is appreciated, thankfully, I love Qadira and they seem firmly diplomacy / bit of bluff focused.
Ah, now on the longbow I'm a step ahead of you! Check points 1 and 2 under "Other Thoughts" in my original post and see if you approve of my plan for tackling that particular shortcoming!
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Well, if you're perform oratory is 10 ranks there is a feat at 11 (Discordant Voce) that makes your bardsong deal d6 sonic damage (making it +3/+3+d6) which is the "no brainer" 11. For PFS I would actually multi to fighter for that and cluster shot at 11; bard 11 and 12 really doesn't gain a lot.
So for 7; dunno arcane strike is the superior option; focusing on archery seems fine, you're not really casting VS opponents or summoning, and you're going to be great on your skills... I'd stick with making your archery keep up personally. It's like weapon spec, that gets better. In fact, it's almost strictly better than deadly aim, which you were already picking up.
I'm currently leveling an Evangalist, and for him arcane shot isn't an option. In his case at 7 I am making him be able to standard action (figure drop d3 lantern archons, bardsong, and aura of glory all in a round is a good way to stand out :)). I am picking up discordant voice at 11 still though.
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Mike: Very right on that, and a lesson I take to heart (lesser bracers of archery for my longbow proficiency instead of blowing a feat on it for example).
Bracers of Archery, Lesser ... +1 competence bonus on attack rolls with proficient bows. 5,000gp
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (cracked) ... +1 competence bonus on attack rolls. 4,000gp
Inspire Courage ... +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
(None of these stack.)
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Advice for archery-focused, high-DEX bards: Have some means of dealing with "unwanted" melee -- because you will find yourself in it, and your bow will be useless if the monster is adjacent to you waiting to opp you. (If you have no melee ability whatsoever, and little ability to boogie out of Dodge by any means other than a Withdraw action, you're cruisin' for a bruisin'._
I have a halfling rogue/paladin who is in much the similar situation; I've decided to go switch-hitter with him, and Piranha Strike with an Agile weapon. I've also decided that magical bows are money-traps until you're "settled" on what your final STR score is going to be, so he's using a MW until I flat-out buy an Oathbow.
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Thalin: Now there are a couple fantastic ideas, and a welcome heads up on discordant voice and clustered shots as I had not noticed them! With that in mind, I'm rather liking dipping fighter at level 11 to take discordant voice and clustered shots, but looking again I'll likely get Bard 11 for level 12 simply because it gains me a couple useful spell castings and I need it to cap inspire courage off at +3 (if only that kicked in at level 10!).
Great advice, though, I thank you for it and please do throw in any more thoughts you have. Actually, given I'm considering being an Animal Speaker and thus will have all the summon natures ally spells, that voice feat will just be icing on the cake!
Hang on, if I don't take Bard 12, I'll miss out on Soothing Performance. I'm not sure about this Thalin, trading out an incredibly circumstantial and very likely worthless ability for two fantastically useful feats, a slew of new class skills, and a fort save bump, you drive a hard bargain, but I might just go for it, grudgingly of course...
Mike: You will, I think, highly approve of how I plan on using those exact items you mentioned!
Lesser Bracers of Archery: The competence bonus is only for bows I can already use, but I'm ditching that short bow and using the bracers to get me free long bow proficiency (no competence bonus then, but as you indicated, that's what inspire courage is for).
Pale Green Ioun Stone (cracked): Forget the competence bonus to attacks, I'm snagging that wondrous cracked beauty for its alternate ability, a +1 competence bonus to saving throws (I really, really hate failing will saves)!
Inspire Courage: Is now clear to buff me like crazy, and with luck toss in a gravity bow enhanced long bow for 2d6 + strength base damage when the stars align.
Luckily just caught you newest post! Good points there, my plan will be acrobatics to keep me out of melee early on, then at 10 acrobatics gets a massive boost courtesy of perform dance plus I'll pick up dimension door as one of my spells. Other then that, though, you are correct in that melee range will be a weakness for me, thus if you have some other good ideas beyond what I laid out earlier please do tell!
Heh, I'm right there with you on magic bows! Little buggers are tough to pick, and as far as special ones go, Oathbow was looking like the one for me as well, specially since it's a +2 composite already!
As mentioned before, there's no retrain skills.
One rank in a lot of skills is a good idea, so you can make the rolls.
Don't overdo the investment inI social skills. With good Cha and class bonus, you will be fine. How hard do you think these diplomacy checks are?
Have you thought about elf? You get longbow, which is worth a feat, and your stats will be very close (calculate and see). Better vision is big for archers as well.
Don't forget the other spell lists with UMD. A scroll of entangle is cheap, and disables charging over a huge area. Might even stick someone...Likewise align weapon and bless weapon.
Don't forget a melee option. I would go spiked gauntlet and arcane strike personally.
Finally, put the bonus in HP, not skills. If you can't get there with 9 skill point a level, the problem is your expectations.
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Pale Green Ioun Stone (cracked): Forget the competence bonus to attacks, I'm snagging that wondrous cracked beauty for its alternate ability, a +1 competence bonus to saving throws (I really, really hate failing will saves)!
Then you'll especially enjoy tucking an Incandescent Blue Sphere Ioun into a Wayfinder for its resonance ability.
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Don't forget the other spell lists with UMD. A scroll of entangle is cheap, and disables charging over a huge area. Might even stick someone...Likewise align weapon and bless weapon.Excellent advice -- activities like these are often much more useful than plinking with a bow.
Don't forget a melee option. I would go spiked gauntlet and arcane strike personally.
Given that this is PFS, and there will be some deadly high-level mods, I'd advise a multi-class dip if it doesn't cost you significant casting ability (and it doesn't for a bard). I'd also dump stats that serve little use in the long run -- and plan for the long-term in PFS. Avoid MAD.
STR:07
DEX+17 bump 4th
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:10
CHA:16
half-elf - ancestral arms
traits: Reactionary, Armor Expert
01 figh1 01 [unbreakable][Endurance][Diehard] Weapon Finesse, EWP:wakizashi
02 bard1 01
03 bard2 02 Two Weapon Fighting
04 bard3 03 DEX>18
05 bard4 04 Piranha Strike
...how it works:
* 1st: Ancestral Arms grants EWP; we take a light melee weapon that doesn't suck. Our STR is pathetic, however, so we will spend levels 1-5 disarming and tripping with whips in melee, and otherwise buff the party.
* When using a finesse weapon (such as a whip) to perform a combat maneuver, calculate CMB using DEX rather than STR.
* ...Unbreakable fighter archetype (besides granting medium armor proficiency which we'll need) addresses a bard's biggest long-term short-coming: horrid fort-save and low HP (learn to laugh as those mods that want to cook you or freeze you first to soften you up).
* 6th/7th-ish: we have enough Fame to begin buying +1/Agile weapons. First a wakizashi (to deal with adjacent opponents you cannot 5' back from to use your whip), then a scorpion whip. Recommend two wakazashis eventually.
* Arcane Strike is a trap (one of the most massively nerfed feats 3.5 < Pathfinder) -- Take Improved Initiative at any point in the build AS seems like it might be useful there.
Armor: mithral breastplate
Personally, I would keep strength at 10, and keep arcane strike.
Mike's opinion is different, and that's fine.
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I keep a wand of honeyed tongue on my summoner; he is +15 at 5th and hasn't failed anything (+1 trait +6 Cha +5 ranks +3 class). The highest I have seen is a 25... regularly he "taps it" (15-20 range).
And that fighter 1 / Dex build was everything he's not looking for; very weak (to the point of doing nothing) at low levels,fighting hand-to-hand, and putting off bard abilities for a full level early (he wants fast train to 7 for the bardsong/haste rounds).
One thing you can do is still keep your feat flexible at 7 but take arcane strike instead of Deadly Aim. This would let you drop strength to 12 (I wouldn't go lower, you do want at least +1 damage from stat) to get Dex to 18. -2 +4 damage VS just +2 damage; the latter is preferable simply because you're already not full BAB and want to maximize chances to hit. And later you can get keywords (acid etc) on your bow instead of extra +s; this amounts trading 1 to hit for 2.5 damage.
The summoner build is better done as a cleric Evangalist (bards can't get swift-action summons, and unlike summoners their summons don't stay on level... at 7 you can only summon ally / monster III).
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Wow, lots of good feedback here!
rkraus2: I did knock around the idea of playing an elf, but since I value skill points so highly for this character, the +1 skill point for being human became a de facto +2 int for him, which thus made swinging the elf option a bit too expensive stat-wise for my taste. I'm very fond of elves (my wizard is one), but it just didn't quite work for this character, and since I'm not spending a feat for longbow proficiency anyway (buying bracers for that), the lost bonus feat for being human would really hurt.
I'm with you on the melee idea, good call, especially since Thalin has me considering arcane strike in place of deadly aim.
On the skill vs. hit points, it's a flavor call, but so you know I'm not getting too crazy, I did keep the 12 con for that bonus hp each level, and will likely pick up a +2 con ioun stone at some point to further fill in the gap.
Oh, and UMD, I'm so with you on that. Like point 2 on other ideas for using a paladin spell (forgot I can simply have a scroll of that as well), I plan on carrying a silly number of scrolls and low level wands to make wide use of this wondrous skill.
Mike:: Dead on about ioun stone slotting, worth getting an ebon wayfinder right there (though I may just slot one so I can keep darkvision, something rkraus2 would approve of as he correctly identified vision being important for archers).
The melee build just isn't my thing for this character. I did get a feel for this type via Treantmonk's very nice bard guide, but it just didn't strike a chord with me (though I appreciate the idea).
Sieylianna: Whew, that's actually about what I was expecting in terms of DC's I'd be looking at, primarily with diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive checks, so guess I'm glad I'll be up in that range at later levels. Thanks for the heads up so I can plan accordingly.
Thalin: Thalin, I am quite liking some of your ideas. Honeyed tongue is a great looking spell, though I'll debate taking it as a spell known vs. a wand option (depending on what I can fill that slot with vs. having it on hand all the time and being able to enhance it via silent and extend metamagic rods).
Now dropping deadly aim for arcane strike is an idea I find myself quite liking. You are correct that with the -2 already from rapid shot, tacking on another -3 (at BAB 8) is going to really start cutting into my chances to connect. This idea also covers me if I'm later using an Oathbow and mess up slaying an oath foe and the bow then behaves as a masterwork bow for the rest of the scenario so I can still do magical damage. I'm liking that versatility a lot (also applies to spiked gauntlet blows in worst case scenarios).
Now the summoning part you're right on (my wizard is conj specced and adores summons), but with all these bonuses and this gem discordant voice, I'll be giving serious thought to picking up monster summoning 4 as my last level 4 spell as the synergy with all the buffing is just gold.
general thoughts and questions: This topic is proving very valuable to me in terms of both how to develop my bard and things to look forward to, so thank you!
Flipping deadly aim for arcane strike should fit very nicely in here, great addition!
The fighter dip to open up both discordant voice and clustered shots is exactly the sort of idea I was after.
Going to making all kinds of use of UMD, though with my low wisdom I'll be emulating that score for some scrolls which I assume will be a challenge likely all the way through to level 12.
Aside from my ideas on gravity bow and weapon of awe, does anyone have any other ideas for further boosting arrow damage for this guy?