They are taking risks and, thereby, society benefits through assurance that the money is available in the right place at the right time.
Nope. They arent in this business, banks are (or more exactly, should be).
They put money were it will reap the most for the least risk possible, not where it's needed. There is no long term planning in the financial world.
As for the Invisible Hand being fragile, tulip crazes are things we've known about for centuries. That's pretty solid evidence that the Invisible Hand can act wonky at times depending on outside influence. The Federal Government is one of those influences.
With high frequency trading, epilectic is a better term than fragile.
More seriously, the invisible hand leading the markets toward the best solution is a dead myth. There is no captain in that boat, and it goes crashing into icebergs after icebergs. Government regulation is the only way to steer the boat toward long term goals.
Full disclosure: yes I'm a keynesian. As the chinese.
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Here's the deal with these protests.
The protesters are mostly the usual left-wing agitators and if you want to talk about astroturf, check out the George Soros connection and Moveon.org connection to this "movement."
If you care to observe what is happening politically around these protesters, you can see what is really going on. This is a carefully calculated effort to try to make the Republicans in the House of Representatives look bad. All you have to do is check out the comments and reactions of the leaders of the Democratic party to see that this is either coordinated by, or encouraged by, Obama, Pelosi, Reid and their peers.
What is most hilarious about this effort is that the Republican Party, for all their efforts over the years, have NEVER REMOTELY been in bed with Wall Street the way this administration is. This administration is an administration of, by and for Wall Street bankers. It always has been. Just follow the money.
If you don't care to observe, or are incapable of understanding the undercurrents of politics, then your analysis will be just as meaningful as your babbling on a message board devoted to fantasy gaming.
Knock yourself out.
It can't *all* be a conspiracy.
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I was at Liberty Plaza on Thursday night, and I have to say, it is the real deal. Hundreds of people engaged in discussions, debates, making signs, talking to media, dancing, impressive music, and a whole tent city (without tents). I found the crowd diverse, and difficult to generalize. College students, professionals, hippies of all ages, crusty punks, minorities, etc. etc.
Oh yeah, and police.
Dozens, or perhaps hundreds of police. They have the park surrounded by metal fencing, and there are dozens of police cars, vans, scooters, and a mobile prison observation tower. I stood there and listened to a group of cops brag to each other about how they could "bring in some mounted units and clear the park in five minutes" as if that was some impressive feat. But that is what the protesters are up against. It is ridiculous, but it is no joke.
I've been going to protests and similar events in NYC since shortly after 9/11. I've see police trample peaceful protesters (who were sitting down) with horses. I've seen dozens of (fairly violent) arrests including the actions of the NYPD's Brute Squad- tattooed steroid freaks wearing nazi-style motorcycle helmets. I've seen police use undercover agents to start trouble, and infiltrate memorial rides for cyclists who were killed by cars. I've seen mass arrests of dozens or even hundreds of people (many of whom were just on the wrong street at the wrong time).
Back in 2004 I was arrested for participating in a monthly bicycle ride along with about 300 of my closest friends. I spent hours in "flex cuffs" and "daisy chained" to other arrestees. They brought us to Pier 57, a filthy former bus depot where we were put into dirty chainlink cages topped with coiled razor wire and held overnight. The next day I spent hours in cuffs waiting on a parked prison bus listening to someone in a bus nearby scream for hours that their hands had lost feeling from being in overly tight flex cuffs (turns out the cops didn't know how to put them on correctly). I was...
As a brooklyn cyclist, I had heard third and fourth hand stories of this, but I couldn't believe my ears. You are the first person I know of personally to have experienced this.
So the wallstreet folks need signs that say
"Help us Ron Paul, you're our only hope" every bit as much as the tea partiers do.
I Can find buns to wear on the side of my head but where am i going to find a white dress my size....
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Ever since the corporate media has started to pay attention to Occupy Everything, it's starting to get channelled into "How will this affect 2012?"
F&++ 2012!
I know, I've seen the Elizabeth Warren video, and she seems like a nice lady, but THIS IS HOW THEY GET YOU! If this gets co-opted back into the Democratic Party, then the movement was all for naught and I'm going back to getting high and reading cyberpunk novels.
The Democratic Party is the graveyard of social protest movements! Beware, beware, beware!
It goes without saying that the Republicans suck, too.
Ever since the corporate media has started to pay attention to Occupy Everything, it's starting to get channelled into "How will this affect 2012?"
F$%# 2012!
I know, I've seen the Elizabeth Warren video, and she seems like a nice lady, but THIS IS HOW THEY GET YOU! If this gets co-opted back into the Democratic Party, then the movement was all for naught and I'm going back to getting high and reading cyberpunk novels.
The Democratic Party is the graveyard of social protest movements! Beware, beware, beware!
It goes without saying that the Republicans suck, too.
Then what do you want to see happen?
C'mon, Freehold, you don't already know what I want? I mean, I may have an inflated opinion about my presence on these boards, but I thought all OTD regulars knew that I want:
INTERNATIONAL PROLETARIAN SOCIALIST REVOLUTION!
Then what do you want to see happen?
This, for starters. Like Anklebiter said, I'm hoping it won't be co-opted, and stay somewhat inchoate.
What's working for the 1% is not working for the rest. How do we fix it? There's no one simple answer. I'm one of those liberals who thinks dialogue matters. The more attention it gets, the more those in power will be forced to address it. Obama would have to do more than sympathize with the frustration. He might actually have to move his booty and do what he campaigned on.
So far, the power in NY has responded with cops and derision. The best outcome will be regular folks thinking about how it got this way, and demanding action and accountability from their "betters."
C'mon, Freehold, you don't already know what I want? I mean, I may have an inflated opinion about my presence on these boards, but I thought all OTD regulars knew that I want:
INTERNATIONAL PROLETARIAN SOCIALIST REVOLUTION!
But what manner of revolution? Do you want to see the rich tossed up against walls and shot? Do you want to have people talk things out peaceably? Would you prefer if noone could make more than a certain amount of money per year? Give me details, man, not just slogans!!!
Spoilered for possibly off-topic revolutionary socialist-ness
I want to see capitalism and imperialism extirpated and replaced with an international planned, democratically-run collectivized economy.
I want to see "the state"--the armed bodies of men that protect capitalist property forms, such as the military, the police and the courts--dismantled and the working classes armed.
I want to see "the rich"--and here I mean the capitalists, not those lucky enough to make, say, $150,000/year--keep one of their estates and, say, a couple million bucks and shut up and live their lives out to the end. I doubt this will happen. As Frederick Douglass famously put it: "Power concedes nothing without a struggle," but, still, it would be nice.
For starters.
I am going to Occupy Concord (capital of New Hampshire for geographically-ignorant Paizonians) today to argue for revolutionary socialism. I'm sure that will be fun.
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I'm gonna spoiler this- I want some genuine feedback, point by point. I'm sure people have seen this elsewhere, but I value opinions here.
1. CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act#Repeal .
2. USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.
3. CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.
4. CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.
5. CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.
6. CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.
7. CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.
8. ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.
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Are those your paragraphs, or cut-and-pasted from elsewhere?EDIT:--Woops, just found the link in Comrade Del Espada's post: never mind.
I think that I would support each and every one of those demands AS LONG AS it was understood that I consider that a "minimum program".
Other minimum demands I would add:
--Billions for a federal works program
--30 hours work for 40 hours pay (although that slogan goes all the way back to the 1930s and is, perhaps, outdated--maybe only 20 hours work)
--Free health care for all, including abortion and every other safe form of birth control
--An end to American occupation of Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay and everywhere else that American troops are serving on non-American territory
--Abolish the death penalty
And, of course,
--Legalization of weed! (and all other "crimes without victims")
[bubble bubble bubble]
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I'm gonna spoiler this- I want some genuine feedback, point by point. I'm sure people have seen this elsewhere, but I value opinions here.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think those are ALL reasonable demands.
This is a little long, but I think it makes the point:
Posted on Sep 29, 2011
AP / Louis Lanzano
By Chris Hedges
Editor’s note: Chris Hedges’ weekly columns usually appear here on Monday mornings, but Truthdig posted this week’s edition early, on Thursday, Sept. 29, in the wake of controversy about the pepper-spraying of participants in the Occupy Wall Street protest.
There are no excuses left. Either you join the revolt taking place on Wall Street and in the financial districts of other cities across the country or you stand on the wrong side of history. Either you obstruct, in the only form left to us, which is civil disobedience, the plundering by the criminal class on Wall Street and accelerated destruction of the ecosystem that sustains the human species, or become the passive enabler of a monstrous evil. Either you taste, feel and smell the intoxication of freedom and revolt or sink into the miasma of despair and apathy. Either you are a rebel or a slave.
To be declared innocent in a country where the rule of law means nothing, where we have undergone a corporate coup, where the poor and working men and women are reduced to joblessness and hunger, where war, financial speculation and internal surveillance are the only real business of the state, where even habeas corpus no longer exists, where you, as a citizen, are nothing more than a commodity to corporate systems of power, one to be used and discarded, is to be complicit in this radical evil. To stand on the sidelines and say “I am innocent” is to bear the mark of Cain; it is to do nothing to reach out and help the weak, the oppressed and the suffering, to save the planet. To be innocent in times like these is to be a criminal. Ask Tim DeChristopher.
Choose. But choose fast. The state and corporate forces are determined to crush this. They are not going to wait for you. They are terrified this will spread. They have their long phalanxes of police on motorcycles, their rows of white paddy wagons, their foot soldiers hunting for you on the streets with pepper spray and orange plastic nets. They have their metal barricades set up on every single street leading into the New York financial district, where the mandarins in Brooks Brothers suits use your money, money they stole from you, to gamble and speculate and gorge themselves while one in four children outside those barricades depend on food stamps to eat. Speculation in the 17th century was a crime. Speculators were hanged. Today they run the state and the financial markets. They disseminate the lies that pollute our airwaves. They know, even better than you, how pervasive the corruption and theft have become, how gamed the system is against you, how corporations have cemented into place a thin oligarchic class and an obsequious cadre of politicians, judges and journalists who live in their little gated Versailles while 6 million Americans are thrown out of their homes, a number soon to rise to 10 million, where a million people a year go bankrupt because they cannot pay their medical bills and 45,000 die from lack of proper care, where real joblessness is spiraling to over 20 percent, where the citizens, including students, spend lives toiling in debt peonage, working dead-end jobs, when they have jobs, a world devoid of hope, a world of masters and serfs.
The only word these corporations know is more. They are disemboweling every last social service program funded by the taxpayers, from education to Social Security, because they want that money themselves. Let the sick die. Let the poor go hungry. Let families be tossed in the street. Let the unemployed rot. Let children in the inner city or rural wastelands learn nothing and live in misery and fear. Let the students finish school with no jobs and no prospects of jobs. Let the prison system, the largest in the industrial world, expand to swallow up all potential dissenters. Let torture continue. Let teachers, police, firefighters, postal employees and social workers join the ranks of the unemployed. Let the roads, bridges, dams, levees, power grids, rail lines, subways, bus services, schools and libraries crumble or close. Let the rising temperatures of the planet, the freak weather patterns, the hurricanes, the droughts, the flooding, the tornadoes, the melting polar ice caps, the poisoned water systems, the polluted air increase until the species dies.
Who the hell cares? If the stocks of ExxonMobil or the coal industry or Goldman Sachs are high, life is good. Profit. Profit. Profit. That is what they chant behind those metal barricades. They have their fangs deep into your necks. If you do not shake them off very, very soon they will kill you. And they will kill the ecosystem, dooming your children and your children’s children. They are too stupid and too blind to see that they will perish with the rest of us. So either you rise up and supplant them, either you dismantle the corporate state, for a world of sanity, a world where we no longer kneel before the absurd idea that the demands of financial markets should govern human behavior, or we are frog-marched toward self-annihilation.
Those on the streets around Wall Street are the physical embodiment of hope. They know that hope has a cost, that it is not easy or comfortable, that it requires self-sacrifice and discomfort and finally faith. They sleep on concrete every night. Their clothes are soiled. They have eaten more bagels and peanut butter than they ever thought possible. They have tasted fear, been beaten, gone to jail, been blinded by pepper spray, cried, hugged each other, laughed, sung, talked too long in general assemblies, seen their chants drift upward to the office towers above them, wondered if it is worth it, if anyone cares, if they will win. But as long as they remain steadfast they point the way out of the corporate labyrinth. This is what it means to be alive. They are the best among us.
Oh, something else:
I am glad to see that Alan Moore has finally made his mark on the world, even if it is through the watered-down lens of that crappy movie.
Are those your paragraphs, or cut-and-pasted from elsewhere?
Oh no, this ain't me- it's just something some guy put up who is a part of the movement, although he isn't a mouthpiece or anything, just another concerned 99%er.
Are those your paragraphs, or cut-and-pasted from elsewhere?Oh no, this ain't me- it's just something some guy put up who is a part of the movement, although he isn't a mouthpiece or anything, just another concerned 99%er.
Yeah, I just noticed the link in Comrade Del Espada's post.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm gonna spoiler this- I want some genuine feedback, point by point. I'm sure people have seen this elsewhere, but I value opinions here.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think those are ALL reasonable demands.
This is a little long, but I think it makes the point:
** spoiler omitted **...
So, where do these protestors get off making "demands" that call for anything other than a democratic process. This is where they lose me.
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So, where do these protestors get off making "demands" that call for anything other than a democratic process. This is where they lose me.
The democracy of the process is what's in question.
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Oh, just an afterthought: Mr Darkwing duck said that financial companies are entitled to their gains because "they took risks".
Well, IMHO, people who wants to get rich only "by taking risks" should go to Vegas. I have no problem with people who get rich by contributing something useful to society at large, but that casino mindset is truly wasteful.
Stock exchange should come back to what it was thirty years ago ( before reaganomics): an useful tool to get money invested in real economic endeavours, not some wheel of fortune club.
The financial industry now weighs a thousand times more than the real economy it was initially supposed to support. Like some Frankenstein monster, it took a life of its own and grew out of its usefulness to become a rampaging, counterproductive godzilla.
Not to pigpile on Citizen Duck, but I'd hasten to point out that the CEOs didn't take any risks. They put vast sums of money into betting on the misery of the poor (subprime mortgages) and, when they lost, sat back and got loans from the government with which to fund their bonuses!
I'd go to Mohegan Sun with those odds!
What most people are not aware of on the mortgage crisis;
More than 70% of the foreclosed homes belong to real estate speculators. There aren't 6 million people (soon to be 10 million) about to be evicted from their homes. It's more like 2 million people (which is still too many!) about to become 3 million. The remainder of those 6 (and 10 million) foreclosures are second and third homes that people bought to fix up, flip and re-sell. I have no pity for people who did "Flip This House For Resale!!!!" BS.
Also, one of the things that's happening in the mortgage industries and contested foreclosure courts is that judges are demanding proof of clear claims of ownership. It is amazing how many of these cases are going to court.
It's amusing in a schadenfreude sort of way to show that 20% of those cases are getting ruled against the mortgage brokers because they can't document every step of the chain of ownership, in concordance with the laws as written, which means the mortgages are declared null and void, and the occupants keep their homes. (Normally the percentages on declaring a mortgage null and void are under one one hundredth of one percent...)
You want fun, look at NINJA loans. (No Income, No Job, Approved!) from 2004-2006.
Edit: Does anyone else find it strange that we don't expect experts to reliably predict the winner of a football game next week, but we expect economists to predict economic conditions months or years in advance? Really, does anyone seriously doubt that the global economy is orders of magnitude more complex than a football league? The uncomfortable truth is that, even in hindsight, the best we can do with respect to cause and effect in such complex systems is make educated guesses.
I don't find that strange at all. My elementary school teachers were telling us 20 years ago that we'd find ourselves changing careers (not jobs, careers) several times in our working lives. My elementary school teachers knew 20 years ago where the country and economy were going. Yet somehow the "smartest guys in the room" were able to pretend there was no housing bubble.
The fact is, people think economics is far more complicated than it actually is. Economists, politicians, big business and the wealthy like to perpetuate that misconception, because having a public that's confused about economics helps them line their pockets. It helps them dip their hands in our wallets while we're looking the other way.
Ever since the corporate media has started to pay attention to Occupy Everything, it's starting to get channelled into "How will this affect 2012?"
F!~& 2012!
I know, I've seen the Elizabeth Warren video, and she seems like a nice lady, but THIS IS HOW THEY GET YOU! If this gets co-opted back into the Democratic Party, then the movement was all for naught and I'm going back to getting high and reading cyberpunk novels.
The Democratic Party is the graveyard of social protest movements! Beware, beware, beware!
It goes without saying that the Republicans suck, too.
While I somewhat agree with you, a lot worse could happen. Two party politics requires that the two parties absorb and adopt as platform the popular ideas of emergent parties. It only becomes a graveyard if they say they've adopted an idea but then go back to business as usual (which in the case of the dems appears to be thumb-twiddling).
But back to how it could be worse than that... The OWS could become its own party. The democratic voter base would then be split (much like the republicans fear now from the Tea Party) and will never again win elections until the parties merge. Think Ralph Nader and 2000. If they aren't democrats, they will screw the democrats. This is why the dems are accepting the protests with open arms.
Senior Software Developer
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You and your ilk
This is the kind of brushpainting we don't want to see here. I know it's not really possible to have a political discussion without seeing characterizations like "all democrats suck" or "all republicans blah", though I don't think it really helps, but when you refer to the other people present in the conversation with a term like "ilk" that's too disrespectful and dismissive.
Edit: And let's stop referring to each other's contributions to a conversation as "spew".
I don't find that strange at all. My elementary school teachers were telling us 20 years ago that we'd find ourselves changing careers (not jobs, careers) several times in our working lives. My elementary school teachers knew 20 years ago where the country and economy were going. Yet somehow the "smartest guys in the room" were able to pretend there was no housing bubble.
Bubbles happen. And they will keep happening. Economists knows this. They have studied bubbles, written about bubbles, and predicted bubbles months or years in advance. None of which changes anything. It isn't recognizing a bubble that's hard -- it's convincing everyone else that there is a bubble, and then addressing the temptation to keep money in and time the pop. Everyone thinks the next guy is the sucker.
The fact is, people think economics is far more complicated than it actually is. Economists, politicians, big business and the wealthy like to perpetuate that misconception, because having a public that's confused about economics helps them line their pockets. It helps them dip their hands in our wallets while we're looking the other way.
Then you're a hell of a lot smarter than I am.
Quick: If we raise the capital gains rate, will tax revenue increase or decrease? It isn't hard to find a line of (highly trained) people on either side. I'm not saying that the average person on the street has a clue about economics -- for the most part, they haven't. What I'm saying is that the economy isn't a linear function, where one can simply point to a single input and say "there's the problem -- tweak that dial and everything will be A-OK." Not only would a simple model be a function with thousands upon thousands of variables, economists can't even agree what the function looks like...
The problem with economics is that, superficially, it looks tractable to predictive analysis. And for short spans under known conditions, this illusion can make people a lot of money.
This illusion also gives them a reason to try and manipulate the market in ways that will make it hew to their desired outcomes.
Markets are all about information and speed of transmission of information, and the modern palsy of the "invisible hand" is the jitter of a million investors trying to be the one who outguesses with the other nine hundred ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine will do, rather than investing in economic activities that meet consumer needs.
You're right in that it's not linear and you can't point to one thing. But it's not overly complicated either. It's like taking a shower. You want the perfect temperature and perfect pressure. You achieve that by adjusting hot and cold and volume. If it's too hot, do you turn down the hot or turn up the cold? Depends on the pressure.
I'm not trying to be or seem smarter--in fact you probably know a lot more about economics than I do. But you can look past the thousands of variables and see general principles, even if you don't know details. How people behave economically when they're greedy or scared, for instance. A lot of economics is basic psychology.
It's not that you can't model it. It's that you can't model it precisely. Just like it's ridiculously hard to model the physics of a golf swing. But in spite of that, you know if you do X and Y, the ball goes farther. And you know that a lot of the answers to questions about it are "it depends."
In answer to your question about capital gains, it depends. Tax laws are one of the ways the rich have obfuscated the system to their exclusive benefit. People tend to hide their capital gains with tax shelters, and raising rates may only encourage more such legal tax fraud. It depends on whether while raising rates you also close loopholes. If you do both, revenue will certainly go up.
I would take a 1000 percent tax rate if I am given infinite tax deductions.
I also think voter id laws can be counterproductive. I think disinfranchizing voters is bad at it ruins democrarcy. If someone does not have a form of identification like that. Also I think then you should not have to pay to get those id cards because then it becomes a poll tax to get the id needed to vote is one way the voter id laws are in question.
The problem with economics is that, superficially, it looks tractable to predictive analysis. And for short spans under known conditions, this illusion can make people a lot of money.
This illusion also gives them a reason to try and manipulate the market in ways that will make it hew to their desired outcomes.
Markets are all about information and speed of transmission of information, and the modern palsy of the "invisible hand" is the jitter of a million investors trying to be the one who outguesses with the other nine hundred ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine will do, rather than investing in economic activities that meet consumer needs.
Yep, exactly my point. Moooooo ! <stampedes back into the herd, trying to get in front>
May I respecfully add to Freehold DM's list the implementation of the Tobin tax on financial operations?
It's a really tiny percentage of value (like 0,0001 %) shaven off each time an order is passed. In practice, it makes high frequency trading unprofitable (you know, the sort where a computer gives a zillion orders by second, and suck a fraction of a cent each time. We could really do without) and promote long term detention of shares.
It has been floating around for a long time in the EU, but would be really impractical to set up without the USA.
The problem with economics is that, superficially, it looks tractable to predictive analysis. And for short spans under known conditions, this illusion can make people a lot of money.
This illusion also gives them a reason to try and manipulate the market in ways that will make it hew to their desired outcomes.
Markets are all about information and speed of transmission of information, and the modern palsy of the "invisible hand" is the jitter of a million investors trying to be the one who outguesses with the other nine hundred ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine will do, rather than investing in economic activities that meet consumer needs.
Yep, exactly my point. Moooooo ! <stampedes back into the herd, trying to get in front>
May I respecfully add to Freehold DM's list the implementation of the Tobin tax on financial operations?
It's a really tiny percentage of value (like 0,0001 %) shaven off each time an order is passed. In practice, it makes high frequency trading unprofitable (you know, the sort where a computer gives a zillion orders by second, and suck a fraction of a cent each time. We could really do without) and promote long term detention of shares.
It has been floating around for a long time in the EU, but would be really impractical to set up without the USA.
This is one of a handful of things we need to shore up the fiscal irresponsibility on wall street. It's true that taxes will be dodged and whatnot but if you can implement a minor fee at least the US will have a means to compensate from this sort of systemic abuse.
It can't *all* be a conspiracy.
If it is, I'm gonna be pissed. I was a card-carrying member of the ACLU at 22, I've got three free EFF t-shirts, and Bono has nagged me until I sent off several letters for Amnesty International. Come on, Sekrit Soros Kabal, I've proven myself... let me in!
Wait a minute... come to think of it, I've never gotten a single newsletter for the Gay Agenda either!
Dang it Left Conspiracy Peeps, what gives?!
I bet it's cause I'm a girl, with girl cooties, isn't it?
high frequency trading ... (you know, the sort where a computer gives a zillion orders by second, and suck a fraction of a cent each time. We could really do without).
Damn it feels good to be a gangsta.
It can't *all* be a conspiracy.If it is, I'm gonna be pissed. I was a card-carrying member of the ACLU at 22, I've got three free EFF t-shirts, and Bono has nagged me until I sent off several letters for Amnesty International. Come on, Sekrit Soros Kabal, I've proven myself... let me in!
Wait a minute... come to think of it, I've never gotten a single newsletter for the Gay Agenda either!
Dang it Left Conspiracy Peeps, what gives?!
I bet it's cause I'm a girl, with girl cooties, isn't it?
No, no. It's because they only try to court you and bring you in if you work for the other side...it's like the story of the Prodigal Offspring, or dating: If you're too easy and obedient, they don't value you. :)
So, I haven't had a chance to read what's been written since last I checked in, but since last I checked in, Occupy New Hampshire is a go.
There were tons of hot chicks, a journalist I recognized from Counterpunch and a bunch of people who gave me the thumbs up when I talked about the need for international proletarian socialist revolution. In New Hampshire!
I can think of no better indication of the anger that is welling up in this country.
Gets kinda cold there, in New Hampshire.
(edit)
wuh....
(spills coffee on his pecker)
interna...soc....OFERF$&!SSAKE!!!
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It can't *all* be a conspiracy.If it is, I'm gonna be pissed. I was a card-carrying member of the ACLU at 22, I've got three free EFF t-shirts, and Bono has nagged me until I sent off several letters for Amnesty International. Come on, Sekrit Soros Kabal, I've proven myself... let me in!
Wait a minute... come to think of it, I've never gotten a single newsletter for the Gay Agenda either!
Dang it Left Conspiracy Peeps, what gives?!
I bet it's cause I'm a girl, with girl cooties, isn't it?
You're not allowed to join unless you ask, just like the Masons.
Unemployment is too high. Obama is no FDR. People are Worried. The Unemployed have free time. Occupy Wall Street is logical.
So, I haven't had a chance to read what's been written since last I checked in, but since last I checked in, Occupy New Hampshire is a go.
There were tons of hot chicks, a journalist I recognized from Counterpunch and a bunch of people who gave me the thumbs up when I talked about the need for international proletarian socialist revolution. In New Hampshire!
I can think of no better indication of the anger that is welling up in this country.
I am glad they did, and that you got your kick (not in the sense of being kicked out, mind you). Kneejerk reactions at the "socialist" word does nothing for the democratic debate. I guess than some people have trouble remembering than the Berlin wall fell twenty years ago.
This is one of a handful of things we need to shore up the fiscal irresponsibility on wall street. It's true that taxes will be dodged and whatnot but if you can implement a minor fee at least the US will have a means to compensate from this sort of systemic abuse.
The beauty of this particular tax is that it CAN'T be dodged. You want to play at the NYSE ? You have to pay at source, each time you pass an order. Ka-ching!
Otherwise, go play and get stiffed in the "darkpools" (parallel stock exchanges) which by the way could be very easily banned or at least excluded from the system.
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D&D-themed Occupy New Hampshire!
--The main "facilitator" of the Concord General Assembly worked in a quotation from George R.R. Martin.
--One of the Facebook pages administrators had the Lion House symbol from Legend of the 5 Rings tattooed on his forearm
--At the post-General Assembly visit to the bar, of the assembled 7 people, 5 admitted to being gamers or at least being heavily into RPGs at one point in their life!
Looks like they're going to be plenty to do this winter in Veteran's Park...Occupy Paizo!
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Looks like they're going to be plenty to do this winter in Veteran's Park...Occupy Paizo!
A Brilliant Idea!
We shall elect poster-comprised committees to run production for gamer need and not Paizo's profit!
All paid-for creative content is to be replaced with an international planned, democratically-run collectivized sourced content (APs and Splat books)
I want to see "the laws"-- which are enforced by courts that protect individuals work, labor and rights dismantled and the working classes having full authority to make all relevant decisions (on APs and Splat books).
I want to see Splat books banned
I want to see "the rich"--and here I mean the the owners of Paizo, not those who work hard enough to make, say, $150,000/year--keep one of their estates and say, a couple of bucks and shut up and live their lives out to the end.
I want to see APs banned.
When these committees decide that gaming and RPGs are counter-productive to the Socialist Proletariat Collective/Leap Forward then RPGs and gamers will be exterm... er, banned.
Personal pursuits that detract from the needs of others (the new State), such as playing RPGs, writing, reading, the excessive consumption of Mountain Dew, BANNED!
How can you game when your brothers and sisters around the world are still starving? Even long after the Great Revolution has passed (and there are more Revolutions), there will be no place for these childish and selfish pursuits - they must be eliminated!