Past about fifth level, fights start when I want them to start, and I always go first.
And you're pulling that off by.... ?
Past about fifth level, fights start when I want them to start, and I always go first.And you're pulling that off by.... ?
Right because the Sohei and Diviner wizard might disagree with you.
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Uncanny Dodge and +12 off DEX+Reactionary+ImpInit is usually more than enough to trounce even an ambush surprise round. (Idea: Bandit archetype forfeits Uncanny for even more out-of-the-gate power; with a stellar ranks in Perception and massive INIT, you hardly even need Uncanny.)Past about fifth level, fights start when I want them to start, and I always go first.And you're pulling that off by.... ?
Right because the Sohei and Diviner wizard might disagree with you.
A 20th-level Sohei getting his free nat-20 is like the halfling rolling a 4 at that level. Divining to know where the monsters are does indeed help with the buffing ("Hey Wiz; you find 'em yet?"), but it doesn't mean you go first on INIT. Any 20th level comparison is just meaningless rubbish anyway (a rogue could buy and UMD high-level scrolls with pocket change by then).
Divining to know where the monsters are does indeed help with the buffing ("Hey Wiz; you find 'em yet?"), but it doesn't mean you go first on INIT.
Well, the Diviner also adds half his level to his INIT.
Assuming he goes in hard on +INIT (as all Diviners I've seen created in Pathfinder have) it makes them pretty well competitive with even the super-INIT-jacked rogue.
Divining to know where the monsters are does indeed help with the buffing ("Hey Wiz; you find 'em yet?"), but it doesn't mean you go first on INIT.Well, the Diviner also adds half his level to his INIT.
Assuming he goes in hard on +INIT (as all Diviners I've seen created in Pathfinder have) it makes them pretty well competitive with even the super-INIT-jacked rogue.
The sohei does as well and cant take all the goodies Mike mentions no level 20 comparison involved.
Right because the Sohei and Diviner wizard might disagree with you.Past about fifth level, fights start when I want them to start, and I always go first.And you're pulling that off by.... ?
I guess the 1% of the time he fights a sohei and/or diviner, he'll have competition. Not the most common NPCs.
Even if it works you're still loosing a round that a half orc rogue could be using to puree kidneys.
Bladeace appearantly hasn't responded. but my suggestion is the high strength human power attacking with a morningstar held in both hands. the other weapons aren't worth the feat, let alone an archtype. humans are more mobile than halflings. and you save yourself 3 whole feats. because you no longer need weapon finesse, dervish dance, nor agile manuevers. the bonus skill point per level can allow you to save some intellegence.
my reccomendation for a `15 point human morningstar rogue
Cha 7
Int 12
Wis 12
Con 14
Dex 14
Str 16 (14+2)
For a 20 point, i would up the Strength to 17 (15+2) and the Wisdom to 14.
Cha 7
Int 12
Wis 14
Con 14
Dex 14
Str 17 (15+2)
For a 25 point build
i would up the Constitution to 15 and the Intellegence to 14
Cha 7
Int 14
Wis 14
Con 15
Dex 14
Str 17 (15+2)
for the first 2 arrays, focus on strength, for the 3rd, bump your con to 16, then focus on strength. leave your charisma at 7. if the fighter can do it, why not you? the skill ranks from your increased intellect can pick up the slack and still accomplish more.
the reason i say to 2hand a morningstar is that it doesn't cost a feat and crits matter a lot less to a rogue. if you could get a desirable belt, i'd say it would have to be physical perfection.
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And you butcher your CHA in both builds, shorting not only the DEX skills to merely mediocre (Escape Artist, Disable, etc), but completelly eviscerate Bluff and Use Magic Device.
....you might as well just play a lunkhead barbarian and dump your INT if you can't actually use the skill points for anything cool.
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butcher Charisma?
you can be a better face with my suggestions than you can by actually investing in charisma. and about UMD. that requires gold expenditure. and all those buff wands won't help you much anyway. they cost money. and not the pocket change variety. Real Armor is a lot cheaper than several wands of mage armor and doesn't cost actions. a mithril shirt is really cheap.
yes, you do dump charisma
but you get more intellegence, affording you more skills, meaning you can be a more diverse face rather than a more specialized one and still pick up plenty of useful skills. you can easily cancel out and surpass your original -2 by burning skill points.
and the bonuses provided by the higher strength and power attack effectively compensate for the missing sneak attack dice when you hold that morningstar in both hands. you were only going to benefit from So much dexterity with that armor anyway.
so what if you cannot tumble/escape artist as well as you could have? by having not spent feats on either the weapon finesse line, nor the 2 weapon fighting line. you have plenty more spare feats to spend. and Yes, i Do reccomend a bit of multiclassing. only i reccomend a 1 Level Cleric Dip. the channel energy may not be worth it, but you get +2 to both fortitude and will, the ability to use divine wands/scrolls without rolling a use magic device check, the potential option of a better 2handed weapon, Orisons, and 1st level domain powers. i would personally look for a way to get the Darkness and Travel domains for the free combat boons.
1 level of Cleric Actually helps a Rogue. and is even better if you can get the darkness/travel domain pairing. which may be the 2 most front loaded domains. free blind fight and a free 10 foot increase to speed. the other powers don't matter anywhere near as much. and you have your own longstrider spell when you need it.
butcher Charisma?
you can be a better face with my suggestions than you can by actually investing in charisma. and about UMD. that requires gold expenditure. and all those buff wands won't help you much anyway. they cost money. and not the pocket change variety. Real Armor is a lot cheaper than several wands of mage armor and doesn't cost actions. a mithril shirt is really cheap.
yes, you do dump charisma
but you get more intellegence, affording you more skills, meaning you can be a more diverse face rather than a more specialized one and still pick up plenty of useful skills. you can easily cancel out and surpass your original -2 by burning skill points.
and the bonuses provided by the higher strength and power attack effectively compensate for the missing sneak attack dice when you hold that morningstar in both hands. you were only going to benefit from So much dexterity with that armor anyway.
so what if you cannot tumble/escape artist as well as you could have? by having not spent feats on either the weapon finesse line, nor the 2 weapon fighting line. you have plenty more spare feats to spend. and Yes, i Do reccomend a bit of multiclassing. only i reccomend a 1 Level Cleric Dip. the channel energy may not be worth it, but you get +2 to both fortitude and will, the ability to use divine wands/scrolls without rolling a use magic device check, the potential option of a better 2handed weapon, Orisons, and 1st level domain powers. i would personally look for a way to get the Darkness and Travel domains for the free combat boons.
1 level of Cleric Actually helps a Rogue. and is even better if you can get the darkness/travel domain pairing. which may be the 2 most front loaded domains. free blind fight and a free 10 foot increase to speed. the other powers don't matter anywhere near as much. and you have your own longstrider spell when you need it.
can't you get both with sepratist. And since it is a one level dip it does not hurt that much.
Runs from the angry mob.
i forgot about the seperatist. this is a perfect use for it.
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I have no advice for players stuck in cash-starved games.butcher Charisma?
you can be a better face with my suggestions than you can by actually investing in charisma. and about UMD. that requires gold expenditure....
1 level of Cleric Actually helps a Rogue. and is even better if you can get the darkness/travel domain pairing. which may be the 2 most front loaded domains. free blind fight and a free 10 foot increase to speed. the other powers don't matter anywhere near as much. and you have your own longstrider spell when you need it.
They're actually decent attack builds with an even mix, if limited in "daily uses" -- charged Inflict XYZ Wounds + Channel Smite + sneak-attack will just drop select opponents right in their tracks -- now you're making the touch-attack work for you. (Once again, halflings are best at this.) Downside: no Pathfinder prestige-classes like 3.5's Divine Prankster.
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Bladeace appearantly hasn't responded. but my suggestion is the high strength human power attacking with a morningstar held in both hands. the other weapons aren't worth the feat, let alone an archtype.If you want to two-hand, why on earth would you play a rogue instead of a barbarian? Or use a 5' weapon when a reach-weapon grants more flanking possibilities?
humans are more mobile than halflings. and you save yourself 3 whole feats. because you no longer need weapon finesse, dervish dance, nor agile manuevers. the bonus skill point per level can allow you to save some intellegence.
And you give up TWF which means fewer hits, and you get up DEX, which means worse AC -- so there you are in the thick of it as a low-HP "melee rogue" with lower toe-to-toe damage and less ability to take toe-to-toe rebound. You're better in hit-n-run (if you trade the "saved" feats for the Spring Attack chain), but the minute something grabs you, you're screwed if you can't wriggle out of it.
some thing has got to be up, Rogues do a ton of damage plus the way pf is with rogue talents you can have almost as many feats as a fighter does combine that with sneak attack and you should be a sneaky little killing machine. my advice is to get weapons with a decent crit range and keen them up. My goblin rogue have 2 keen +2 dogslicers and really cuts things up. remember in pf way more things can be crit and backstabbed than in 3.5
some thing has got to be up, Rogues do a ton of damage
Breathe. In. Out. In. Out.
Rogues do a lot of damage when backstabbing. While their lot has improved from 3.5 when everything and its brother was sneak attack immune, they still have problems sneak attacking, especially in conjunction with a full sneak attack. You cannot always set up a flank, you cannot always deny your opponent a dex bonus.
plus the way pf is with rogue talents you can have almost as many feats as a fighter does combine that with sneak attack and you should be a sneaky little killing machine.
A large number of people are reporting the exact same problem. I've seen it myself, I'm inclined to think that its not the player.
my advice is to get weapons with a decent crit range and keen them up. My goblin rogue have 2 keen +2 dogslicers and really cuts things up. remember in pf way more things can be crit and backstabbed than in 3.5
Whats your strategy for getting a full attack sneak attack with those?
Crit doesn't help a rogue much: sneak attack dice are not multiplied on a crit.
we play with a fairly large party 6-8. so flanking is not a big deal stealth rolls are important. spring attack can help get your rogue out of dodge. maybe it just our group but the rogue is super handy either doing the back stab or setting up flanking. not everything has to have a high dps to be useful is combat. but getting some crits is does up your damage especially when you have a high chance to confirm. my rogue is a goblin and i have that sneaky little roll with it feat along with a high racial dex bonus. with weapon finesse i have a very high chance at hitting criting and confirming. with dodge mobility and spring attack i have a high chance at living once the baddies or in my case goodies notice me.
we play with a fairly large party 6-8. so flanking is not a big deal stealth rolls are important. spring attack can help get your rogue out of dodge. maybe it just our group but the rogue is super handy either doing the back stab or setting up flanking. not everything has to have a high dps to be useful is combat. but getting some crits is does up your damage especially when you have a high chance to confirm. my rogue is a goblin and i have that sneaky little roll with it feat along with a high racial dex bonus. with weapon finesse i have a very high chance at hitting criting and confirming. with dodge mobility and spring attack i have a high chance at living once the baddies or in my case goodies notice me.
What are you multiplying exactly? At best it's the piranha strike and the dex bonus (if you have agile weapons).
And with 6-8 party members, and if two or three of them have pets (animal companions, eidolons) then yes flanking is quite easy, if you have a 4 person party and none of them has a pet then having flank can't be sure.
we play with a fairly large party 6-8. so flanking is not a big deal stealth rolls are important. spring attack can help get your rogue out of dodge. maybe it just our group but the rogue is super handy either doing the back stab or setting up flanking. not everything has to have a high dps to be useful is combat. but getting some crits is does up your damage especially when you have a high chance to confirm. my rogue is a goblin and i have that sneaky little roll with it feat along with a high racial dex bonus. with weapon finesse i have a very high chance at hitting criting and confirming. with dodge mobility and spring attack i have a high chance at living once the baddies or in my case goodies notice me.What are you multiplying exactly? At best it's the piranha strike and the dex bonus (if you have agile weapons).
And with 6-8 party members, and if two or three of them have pets (animal companions, eidolons) then yes flanking is quite easy, if you have a 4 person party and none of them has a pet then having flank can't be sure.
just multiplying the dmg die roll but not the sneak attack. in a party of 5 or less you are relegated to pretty much picking locks disarming traps scouting and providing the occasional flanking bonus. all very useful but don't expect going toe to toe on damage with a monk. remember this is a role playing game. rogues have a roll if you want dps play a barb or fighter type. or ya know be a sorc\wizard fireball, magic missile battery
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some thing has got to be up, Rogues do a ton of damageBreathe. In. Out. In. Out.
Rogues do a lot of damage when backstabbing. While their lot has improved from 3.5 when everything and its brother was sneak attack immune, they still have problems sneak attacking, especially in conjunction with a full sneak attack. You cannot always set up a flank
You know that CHA score everybody keeps recommending dumping while they're moaning about how much magical consumables cost?
UMD wand of Summon Monster II, 4,500gp; will last for about 100 encounters (figuring you'll only use it every other).
....if the PCs are doing the ambushing, summon 1d3 1st-level monsters (eagles are good) the round prior to first-strike. They appear in the surprise round adjacent to whomever you want -- or anywhere else, really. Combined with the Surprise Attack talent, you can move into flank and sneak-attack even an Uncanny Dodge opponent in the surprise round. If he ignores the worthless birds on his turn, you maintain your flank; if he doesn't, he's not hurting you.
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Scorpion Whip Master (dash of rogue):
STR:07 ...20pt
DEX+17
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA:12
half-elf - ancestral arms
traits: Reactionary, Berserker of the Society
01 barb1 01 [urban][brutal pugilist], Extra Rage (15r/day), EWP:Scorpion Whip
02 rogu1 01 SA+1d6
03 rogu2 02 [finesse rogue:Weapon Finesse], Two Weapon Fighting
04 rogu3 03 SA+2d6, DEX>18
05 rogu4 04 [uncanny dodge][weapon training:Weapon Focus:Whip], Whip Mastery
06 fight1 05 [weapon master], Improved Whip Mastery
07 fight2 06 [weapon guard +1], Combat Reflexes, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
08 fight3 07 DEX>19, [weapon training:whip +1], (buy Gloves of Dueling)
09 barb2 08 [Savage Grapple][Reckless Abandon], Piranha Strike
10 fight4 09 Weapon Specialization:Whip
11 fight5 10 [Reliable Strike], Greater Weapon Focus:Whip
12 fight6 11 DEX>20, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
attack-related equipment: pair +1/Agile/Furious scorpion whips, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Gloves of Dueling, wand of Heroism, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (cracked, att+1).
Attack bonus @12th: 11(BAB)+9(DEX+rage+belt)+2(GWF)+3(furious)+1(reckless)+1(ioun)+3(WT)+2(Hero ism)-4(piranha) = +28
Full attack sequence: +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16
damage: d4+9(DEX)+3(furious)+3(WT)+2(WS)+8(PS) = ~27.5
UMD wand of Summon Monster II, 4,500gp; will last for about 100 encounters (figuring you'll only use it every other).
And then you spend a full round standing there waving a wand around instead of pureeing kidneys. If your combats last 4 rounds thats 1/4 off your damage.
I just helped a player build a Rogue...and I hate to admit it we used the ninja, which seems to be what the Rogue should have been in the beginning.
Its a STR based build using (I hate myself for this) a katana (sob) two handed. Using Improved Feint to set up SA and prolly going for Vital Strike for extra umph...
There is also a good chance that a one Lvl dip in Summoner will be taken to gain a flanking/Aid other partner and to access some decent spells.
Lassie (Eidolon), Male Quadruped - CL1 - CR 1
STR 10 (0), DEX 16 (+3), CON 11 (0), INT 7 (-2), WIS
10 (0), CHA 11 (0); Fortitude +2, Reflex +5, Will +0
HP: 8/8; Init: +3; Speed: 40 feet
Attack Bonus: +2; Armor Class: 18 / 14Tch / 15Fl
Acrobatics +4, Fly +5, Perception +12, Sense Motive
+4, Stealth +19
Special: Darkvision (60 feet), Precise Strike
Bite (Bite) +2, 1d4, 20/x2
Unarmed Strike +2, 1d2, 20/x2
EDIT: to put in Eidolon stats
personally i feel that rogues bring more to the group than damage. on the RP side of the coin you have so many different options; you can play the loud mouth braggart that steals the last few hits on the mobs and claims the kill, you can play the scout that warns the party of danger, you can play the compulsive thief that steals everything, etc.
as far as damage goes there are many rogue ATs and talents that can boost damage, many of which have already been hinted at in previous posts.
the reason i bring up the RP aspect is, the group i play with has a few issues with it and look at PF as a combat game and totally pass on the RP. the combat can be fun, but after the combat "what do you do?" can be just as challenging as during. the barbarian that succumbed to alcoholism sound like some cool RP to me. in a game that rectally ended, my group had a fire oracle, who had bouts of being a turd. for instance he tried to sell a cold resist ring for full price on the plane of fire. the gm tried to give him 75%, which is generous, but the player kept arguing for full price. so he got the normal 50%. we also have a player that that is usually lawfully aligned, but is super greedy. another that plays very selfish and then me who usually plays chaotic aligned "i really don't care, but I'll take the useless things like the bag of tricks."
i guess my point here is don't look at damage as your character's only contribution to the party.
Other classes offer equal role playing options, so role playing favor is not something in the rogues favor.
Don't think the OP is listening, but oh well. . .
I’ve got weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, 18 dex and a +2 dex belt as well as two +1 short swords (I’m hoping to add D6 elemental damage to each of these soon – when I get the funds).
So I’ve got two attacks with each at +10 (+4BAB +5Dex +1enchantment) to hit (+11 when flanking) and doing 5D6 damage for each attack (+1 from the short sword enchant, but no additional from strength).
I'll assume you're medium sized. As others have pointed out, you're lowering your BAB by 2 instead of just taking a -2 penalty to hit. That means you're potentially losing 2 attacks (ITWF attack + secondary attack).
Furthermore, any TWF worth their salt will take Weapon Focus before they get a -5 attack. Never avoid the opportunity to get a +1 hit unless the drawbacks are huge. Using a rogue talent for a +1 to hit is not a huge drawback -- you should have this talent.
At level 8 if you have a +5 Dex with a +2 dex belt, that means you started with a 14 in your base Dex stat. (14 + 2 race + 2 level + 2 belt) WHY would you start with a 14 in your most important stat if you actually care about damage?
Do not take the elemental damage weapon enhancement over plain old magic enhancements. Pluses to hit with sneak attack will outweigh those bonuses over time.
Flanking is a +2 bonus to hit. You went from +10 to hit to +11 to hit. Not sure what you're doing there.
How are you level 8 and you don't have at least 1 +2 weapon? Physical damage focused classes should be spending about half their wealth on weapons (source 3.5 PH2). Since (on average) a level 8 character should have 33,000 gp in wealth, a level 8 character should have 2 +2 weapons by now. Not doing this is screwing your character out of a *HUGE* amount of damage.
Let's redo this character a bit. Let's assume you put a 16 in Dex, your level boosts in Dex, you have a +2 racial bonus to Dex, and you keep the +2 Dex belt. That pushes you up to 22 Dex. You also need to take Weapon Focus and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (as a combat talent). Let's also assume you have the proper 2 +2 short swords the game assumes you should have.
You went from: +10/+10 (+11/+11 flanking)
To: (BaB 6 + Dex 6 + enchant 2 + WF 1 - TWF 2) 13/13/8/8 (15/15/10/10 flanking)
That's going to be more than double damage on average. . .
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And then you spend a full round standing there waving a wand around instead of pureeing kidneys.
You know, one of my peeves is getting pounced on by people who quote one line without reading the next one (in which the specifics of a situation are detailed, especially when they apply to the example being highlighted by the guy in a rush to respond).
There's been a whole lot of that going on.
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And then you spend a full round standing there waving a wand around instead of pureeing kidneys.You know, one of my peeves is getting pounced on by people who quote one line without reading the next one (in which the specifics of a situation are detailed, especially when they apply to the example being highlighted by the guy in a rush to respond).
There's been a whole lot of that going on.
It was read. When you start a new paragraph , you're telling me that you're using separate ideas. Also 6 am happens. I save my conspiracies for bigger and better things.
There's a number of problems with your strategy.
1) 4.5 k gold is a big chunk of change at any level the eagles aren't just going to get roflcoptered with an aoe, cleave, or secondary attack number 4. Hurting you/hurting the eagles may not be an or option.
2) Its a lot of cash to spend on something you only use when you're not only surprising your foes, but are surprising your foes in such a way that you can exactly time the ambush. You need line of sight to your foes to do this, and los works both ways.
3) Stealth is currently hard to use successfully. Hopefully after the revision chickens of the world won't be safe, but for now there's far too many ways for things to spot you while you're using the wand.
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You know that CHA score everybody keeps recommending dumping while they're moaning about how much magical consumables cost?UMD wand of Summon Monster II, 4,500gp; will last for about 100 encounters (figuring you'll only use it every other).
....if the PCs are doing the ambushing, summon 1d3 1st-level monsters (eagles are good) the round prior to first-strike. They appear in the surprise round adjacent to whomever you want -- or anywhere else, really. Combined with the Surprise Attack talent, you can move into flank and sneak-attack even an Uncanny Dodge opponent in the surprise round. If he ignores the worthless birds on his turn, you maintain your flank; if he doesn't, he's not hurting you.
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
Start/Complete Full-Round ActionThe "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
So far, this Wand-Wielding Rogue has used a Standard Action (to begin summoning his eagles), a Move Action (to move next to the enemy), and another Standard Action (to utilize the Suprise Attack talent), all in a time when he actually has only a Move or Standard action afforded him (since we're talking about a Surprise Round ambush).
He has also used one of his Talents (for Surprise Attack), and just spend the Surprise Round & his first Standard Action of the fight to spend 90 gp on 1d3 summoned birds, which will likely add 0 damage to the Hero's side of the fight.
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When a new paragraph leads off with ellipsis, it signifies association with the previous.It was read. When you start a new paragraph , you're telling me that you're using separate ideas.And then you spend a full round standing there waving a wand around instead of pureeing kidneys.You know, one of my peeves is getting pounced on by people who quote one line without reading the next one (in which the specifics of a situation are detailed, especially when they apply to the example being highlighted by the guy in a rush to respond). There's been a whole lot of that going on.
Also 6 am happens. I save my conspiracies for bigger and better things.Circuitous apology accepted.
1) 4.5 k gold is a big chunk of change at any levelReprise: I have no advise for cash-starved campaigns. <shrug> Play a barbarian. Play PFS. (I should like to think that 4500gp is chump-change by the time you're dealing with anything possessing a "secondary attack number 4".)
the eagles aren't just going to get roflcoptered with an aoe, cleave, or secondary attack number 4. Hurting you/hurting the eagles may not be an or option.
Simply saying: if you want flank-buddies, you got 'em. For at least one round anyway (and then your allies may be in position to pick up the slack).
Reprise: I have no advise for cash-starved campaigns
-If you're defining standard wealth by level as "Cash starved" you might be justified in responding as though i hadn't seen that caveat. As a standard campaign however the wand isn't feasibly available until level 5, and then its ~ half your wealth.
I still think you're better off paying the 4500 gold pieces on a wand of flame blade. 50 fights of 3 minutes each, melee touch attacks of 1d8+1 damage, at 8th level, with a decent Dex, you're only missing on natural 1s in most cases. Heck, if you have a couple rounds of prep time, you can even dual-wield them!
Investing in dervish dance might be worth it too. Adding Dex to damage would be really beneficial to a rogue build.
You assume a flank buddy scenario that just might not exist. Furthermore, you've got to pay 4500 bucks for it. All to get flanks on something when your proposed character is Small, with 5 Strength, and 20 foot movement.
That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
A figurine of wondrous power or a scroll of planar ally might work better if all you're looking for is a flank-buddy. Or a dip into cavalier or druid for the animal companion or summoner for the eidolon.
Imagine your damage with this build:
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10
(Starting Array was 15,17, 12, 10, 8, 10; +2 Str for Human bonus, +1 str level 4, +1 Dex level 8)
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Fauchard), Exotic Weapon Prof(Fauchard)
Rogue Talents:Swift Poison
Now you have a decent skill junkey rogue with nice dex and strength who is able to do some nice melee damage.
By level 8 you should have a +2 weapon enhancement equivalent.
So, Falchion +11/+6 (1d10+14 x2/18-20) (+4d6 Sneack attack)
That's and average of 19.5 damage (33.5 on a sneak attack). That's not too shabby.... especially with being able to poison your weapon every turn and having reach, you could go with Combat Reflexes as another feat choice, choose talents that give you more damage while flanking.
And very important. Have a good Use Magic Device and find a way to get improved invisibility on yourself asap.
Dont worry about it your the rouge and not ment to be the main source of damage just play your character and have fun stop worring about the numbers and ROLE PLAY
These are not mutually exclusive goals.
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Imagine your damage with this build:
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10
(Starting Array was 15,17, 12, 10, 8, 10; +2 Str for Human bonus, +1 str level 4, +1 Dex level 8)
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Fauchard), Exotic Weapon Prof(Fauchard)
Rogue Talents:Swift Poison
I imagine him murdering his allies after failing a will save (which will be frequently).
(Why are you jacking DEX in a two-hander build?)
...The better way to do this is with a half-elf who dips barbarian -- he uses Ancestral Arms to get EWP as racial, and uses the freed-up feat slot for Extra Rage at 1st level. Takes WF as rogue talent and Raging Vitality as feat at 3rd.
STR+17 (21 raging) ...20pt
DEX:14
CON:12 (18 w/Raging Vitality)
INT:12
WIS:12 (+2 will saves for rage; +2 vs ench for half-elf)
CHA:12
racial alternative: ancestral arms
traits: Berserker of the Society, Reactionary
01 barb1 [Move+10], EWP:Fauchard, Extra Rage (14r/day)
02 rogu1 SA+1d6
03 rogu2 [combat trick:Combat Reflexes], Raging Vitality
04 rogu3 SA+2d6, STR>18
05 rogu4 [uncanny dodge][weapon training:Weapon Focus:Fauchard], Power Attack
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Dont worry about it your the rouge and not ment to be the main source of damage just play your character and have fun stop worring about the numbers and ROLE PLAY
Because feeling useless is such a great opportunity to roleplay.
In my recent game, the weakest character, the commoner/bard/warmage has been the most active, and the heaviest into role-playing.
Sure he was weak, sure he wasn't doing the best damage, but he didn't let some weaknesses get him down.
Problems with damage as a rogue? A rogue is so much more. When perception, stealth, bluff or your best checks come up, the other players should catch fire with envy at the numbers you reach. That is what a rogue is about, being damn good at your specialty. Damage is neat and required, but you went low strength, didn't take a two handed weapon. If you want damage rogue, it can be worth a feat to get something really nasty (rogue leaps off the ledge and comes down with the sneak, via a halberd/greataxe/lucerne hammer/bastard sword). Perhaps take some inspiration from Assassin's creed.
Dont worry about it your the rouge and not ment to be the main source of damage just play your character and have fun stop worring about the numbers and ROLE PLAYThese are not mutually exclusive goals.
So THIS. I always laugh when I see that crap. "I know you like to get every ounce of power out of your character...but I like to make my character COOL!"
Your cool character is dead. My cool AND tough character lives on.
The character that survives is the character that gets remembered. (mostly)
Yep Klevis.
I'll bring in my high damage rogue as an suggestion. it was a beta game a few years back.
Level 8 rogue outlaw (so it's a variant of the rogue whereby you get some more martial proficiencies, bounty hunters rock up once in a while, you can't talk to nobles).
Johann Bückler
AC 35 with dodge up, flat 21, touch 29
Hp 63
Acrobatics +17 (one skill focus in it)
Dodge x5, has acrobatic mastery at this stage, upping the bonus.
Go a subtle bastard sword, swing it two-handed.
Fast stealth, bleeding attack, two combat tricks into dodge.
Two flaws: we ran a flaw system, see unearthed arcana, one which is a role-playing flaw, the other which makes him vulnerable to combat maneuvers. If not available in your game, drop the fast stealth (the team can wait while you stealth ahead).
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 11 (4d6 no 1s, is how the dm did stat gen).
Cheers chaps.
Anything that can cast 3rd and 4th level Will save spells, Supernatural abilities, Spell Like abilities or the equivalent thereabouts is straight up owning that character. Even after resistance save this and luck save that, and feat this and trait that it will be charmed, held, confused, made insane, blinded, etc.Go metagame a bit. Look through the 2 bestiaries and consider just how many monsters have Will save targeting nastiness. Furthermore, think about how many base and core and alternative classes have ways to get at your Will save.
I left plenty of wiggle room for your feats and your rogue talents(which you can pick feats with).
Iron Will, Improved Iron Will. Then you can also take a Trait at the beginning that gives a +1... plus you should be wearing a +2 resistance cloak... so....
Fort 1+2 +2 =+5
Reflex 4 +6 +2 =+12
Will -1 +2 +1 +2 +2 = +6 (With the ability to roll twice on a presumed fail)
Biiiiiiiig Deallllll, who cares if the rogue is weaker on will... let's see how the wizard does vs poison. Besides, there are more buffs which protect against mind effects and enchantment than other saves (can we say protection from alignment?)
Rogues aren't meant to deal HUGE ammounts of damage. They are skill junkies, with decent precision damage, recon abilities, trap cababilities (including setting traps behind enemy lines) and they are fun.
I imagine him murdering his allies after failing a will save (which will be frequently).
(Why are you jacking DEX in a two-hander build?)
...The better way to do this is with a half-elf who dips barbarian -- he uses Ancestral Arms to get EWP as racial, and uses the freed-up feat slot for Extra Rage at 1st level. Takes WF as rogue talent and Raging Vitality as feat at 3rd.
I am jacking dex for multiple reasons:
- The ability to swap to a Composit Longbow (+4str) when fighting against creatures out of reach or simply because you want your full attack without moving.-High reflex saves so that you gain the benefits of Evasion/improved evasion/Defensive Roll etc more often.
- The ability to use skills better: stealth, sleight of hand, disable device, acrobatics, escape artist etc.
- The ability to choose combat reflexes (if they chose another weapon besides falchion, with reach, this would be pretty awesome for a melee rogue.
- Armor Class and above all CMD CMD CMD.
So, like any class that concentrates in one area, this build will have its weaknesses. Fine, if you are worried about will, then only choose a 16 in Dex and prop up will.....
... but wait... OH NO! Now you have a rogue with 1 less AC, Disable Device, CMD, Escape Artist, Acrobatics, stealth, and Reflex saves.
So.... to gain +2 to will, sense motive, and perception (which is all you will use Wis for)... so increasing your chances +10% in those areas will decrease all the above areas by -5%... it's a preference matter and I would rather deal with lower will saves.