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...So, like any class that concentrates in one area, this build will have its weaknesses. Fine, if you are worried about will, then only choose a 16 in Dex and prop up will.....
... but wait... OH NO! Now you have a rogue with 1 less AC, Disable Device, CMD, Escape Artist, Acrobatics, stealth, and Reflex saves.
So.... to gain +2 to will, sense motive, and perception (which is all you will use Wis for)... so increasing your chances +10% in those areas will decrease all the above areas by -5%... it's a preference matter and I would rather deal with lower will saves....
Actually it's your allies who will be dealing with your dread horrible will save. Human rogue with WIS8...yeah; looks damaging on paper until you run into Color Spray your second adventure.... DPR ain't too hot after that.
Fail a Disable, and you take some damage. Oh well...medic!
Fail a will save and you suck and may be out of the fight for the whole encounter.
- - - -
Bruiser rogue refrain over the page-break:
STR+17 (21 raging) ...20pt half-elf
DEX:14
CON:12 (18 w/Raging Vitality)
INT:12
WIS:12 (+2 will saves for rage; +2 vs ench for half-elf)
CHA:12
racial alternative: ancestral arms
traits: Berserker of the Society, Reactionary
01 barb1 [Move+10], EWP:Fauchard, Extra Rage (14r/day)
02 rogu1 SA+1d6
03 rogu2 [combat trick:Combat Reflexes], Raging Vitality
04 rogu3 SA+2d6, STR>18
05 rogu4 [uncanny dodge][weapon training:Weapon Focus:Fauchard], Power Attack
- - - -
-- If you're happy with an 18 STR, switch DEX and STR above. When you rage, you'll have 18s in both at 4th onward. Will save is +6 versus charms and +4 everything else over your build out-of-the-gate when raging.
Late to the discussion, so sorry if this seems off topic but my two cp on the subject of a bite attack added to TWF is this; he would have a bite in addition to his regular attacks with a +9 to att.(+6 base, +5 Dex, -2 TWF)
core rule book pg.182
"Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus."
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks.
Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary)can reduce these penalties."
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Having played several rogues over the years, I have found a few successful builds. My Old spring attack elf rogue from 3.5 with a ring of Blink and a ghost touch weapon was usually the character with the least damage taken in the party.
He would play differently in Pathfinder, having to focus on getting flanking more often, since Blink does not render targets flatfooted in PF.
Other classes offer equal role playing options, so role playing favor is not something in the rogues favor.
True enough, but I think his point is still valid. Rogues are not just damage machines, they are skill monkeys. If you only consider damage output important, you're short-changing the class.
I often play rogues because I hate being in a party without one. I recently played a module with my Rogue5/Halfling Opportunist3. We walked through, found every trap, every secret door and every opponant before they found us. We completed our primary missions, all faction missions and only got in 1 fight. I could not sneak attack the opponant but I contributed. When I judged the same module, the party had a ninja, no rogue. They failed the primary missions, half the faction missions and 1 PC died, all with a larger party. They lacked the necessary skills for success.
^ This
As I said it before, as I have played rogues, they are not supposed to be by any means the primary damage dealers. They might out damage a cleric up to a certain level, but that is it. Their skills are vastly superior to all others and can win a fight before even initiative is even rolled.Simple personal conclusion:
They are skill monkeys, not combatants, and that is perfectly fine.
Every character is a combatant.
Yes. But not every character needs to be doing equal amounts of damage in fights to meaningfully contribute to the overall adventure.
Thanks for hopping on the Captain Obvious train with me. It's nice to have a copilot.
This is the internet. You need at least 10 people stating the obvious before people will consider believing it.
I often play rogues because I hate being in a party without one. I recently played a module with my Rogue5/Halfling Opportunist3. We walked through, found every trap, every secret door and every opponant before they found us. We completed our primary missions, all faction missions and only got in 1 fight. I could not sneak attack the opponant but I contributed. When I judged the same module, the party had a ninja, no rogue. They failed the primary missions, half the faction missions and 1 PC died, all with a larger party. They lacked the necessary skills for success.This is only true of pickup games. If you have a reliable party, as home games tend to, a dedicated skill monkey isn't important. Having the skills is, but there's no reason to load them all on one party member and some good reasons to avoid doing so. First, if there's only one skill guy he's probably close to dead weight in combat, which is not fun for him and risky for the party as a whole. Second if there's only one skill guy everyone else is dead weight out of combat which is not fun for them.
If you can split traps and stealth from face duty, though, an urban or trapper ranger does the job while being generally better in combat while an oracle, bard, or possibly cavalier can do face duty. Or a trapper ranger can do trap duty while a ninja does face duty and they share stealth duty. Or someone dips rogue or trapper for trapfinding and divinations and/or summons are used for scouting.
If you need trapfinding in the first place. Many GMs dislike niche protection and will deemphasize things like magical traps that require a specific kind of build that's unfun for many players.
This may be true in you games, but it certainly isn't true in all games. My groups tries to have as many skills covered as possible, as many other groups, but they also tend to let the skill monkeys have their niche. Additionally, the skill monkeys have not been dead weight in my games. I think it's even easier for a GM of a home game to make sure that no character is dead weight than for a pick up game. One of the biggest problems with writing modules is that you can't account for every class and player combination. For a home game, I only have to account for my group. I have found it much easier to GM for a dedicated group than for a pick up group.
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As for the rogue not dealing enough damage, I think that the player needs to ask himself how much damage is enough. Also, what are the combats like? Are there lots of opponents or just a couple (or even only one)? If the heavy hitters are pounding on the big bad, why aren't you moving around in combat to take on the minions? Sure it's not as glorifying, but it is a necessary job. The fighter takes out the one guy while you are taking out several smaller ones. This is assuming that your GM has battles where this is possible. If you can be moving around invisibly or a caster can bring in several summoned creatures to act as flanking buddies, you can be a huge asset on the battlefield. You just need to remember that you are not a tank. You are a HMMWV. You should not be trading blows with the enemy. You should deliver well places shots on smaller units and moving out of the area quickly. It's all about the tactics you embrace.
True enough, but I think his point is still valid. Rogues are not just damage machines, they are skill monkeys. If you only consider damage output important, you're short-changing the class.
Between skill consolidation and traits its very easy for other classes to fill in the gaps. Everyone gets perception , if one character snags sense motive, one grabs diplomacy you've got the rogue covered. Most traps you can just walk on and heal up with a wand of clw, but disable device as a skill isn't that hard to come by either.
Most traps you can just walk on and heal up with a wand of clw, but disable device as a skill isn't that hard to come by either.
Poison traps are seldom remedied by CLW, and they're by far the most effective form of trap for the very reason you mention. Most of the Symbol traps and Sepia Snake Sigil don't even do hit point damage. No particular class is necessary, of course, but the Rogue does have the skill points to burn to plug nearly any gap in skills the group may have.
How different pathfinder must have made the rogue...
I read this with a sense of nostalgia. I remember my group back in 3.5e having a very very different conversation. We were concerned about the unstoppable torrent of damage the rogue was putting out. Easily over 10 times as much as the fighter. Mind you the rogue was one of a pair of power gamers that I played with, the other one of the pair being our wizard. The amount of damage those two could work together to achieve was staggering. I wish I could put you in contact with him... but I lost touch with him. I am sure he could have made your rogue truly frightening.
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How different pathfinder must have made the rogue...
I read this with a sense of nostalgia. I remember my group back in 3.5e having a very very different conversation. We were concerned about the unstoppable torrent of damage the rogue was putting out. Easily over 10 times as much as the fighter. Mind you the rogue was one of a pair of power gamers that I played with, the other one of the pair being our wizard. The amount of damage those two could work together to achieve was staggering. I wish I could put you in contact with him... but I lost touch with him. I am sure he could have made your rogue truly frightening.
ring of blinking + flasks of Acid/Alchemist Fire/Etc + quickdraw & bandoleer = dead stuff in 3.5.
Can't sneak attack with flasks in PF, so that's the biggest change there.
(Ring of Invisibility + Ring of Telekinesis + Pile of Alchemist Supplies was just as bad, if not worse...)
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The point i'm trying to make is that it shouldn't matter that another character is doing more damage a rouge is not ment to be a damage monster everyone in the group has a role that they should be best at. I mean do the other players worry when the rouge is more stealthy than them ? or that he can pick locks and disable traps far more easily.
I think you decided to play the rouge for what ever reason so just except that other characters are going to better than you at some things and thats fine because that makes team work all the more important so just except that you cant be great at every thing and just enjoy time with friends playing a very cool game
and in my experience it's the cool PARTYS that get remembered
Several other classes can out-stealth the rogue, many classes have archetypes that can detect and disable traps as a rogue, and I can't think of a class that brings less to a group than a rogue.
Several other classes can out-stealth the rogue, many classes have archetypes that can detect and disable traps as a rogue, and I can't think of a class that brings less to a group than a rogue.
Everybody discounts rogue talents. I know, now we've got 'the ninja' to borrow rogue talents, but not everybody is going to use the ninja in their campaigns - and rogues can get ninja tricks anyways.
Slow Reactions? Shut down somebody's AoO. Very helpful against creatures with lots of reach (and Combat Reflexes).
Fast Stealth? Ignore that -5 penalty for moving full pace. Mobile and stealthy.
Trap Spotter? Automatically check for traps within 10ft. Nobody but rogues (and ninjas, see above) gets that.
Other classes can sort of do the rogue's bailiwick, but nobody can replace them at what they can do really well.
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Several other classes can out-stealth the rogue, many classes have archetypes that can detect and disable traps as a rogue, and I can't think of a class that brings less to a group than a rogue.Everybody discounts rogue talents. I know, now we've got 'the ninja' to borrow rogue talents, but not everybody is going to use the ninja in their campaigns - and rogues can get ninja tricks anyways.
Slow Reactions? Shut down somebody's AoO. Very helpful against creatures with lots of reach (and Combat Reflexes).
Fast Stealth? Ignore that -5 penalty for moving full pace. Mobile and stealthy.
Trap Spotter? Automatically check for traps within 10ft. Nobody but rogues (and ninjas, see above) gets that.Other classes can sort of do the rogue's bailiwick, but nobody can replace them at what they can do really well.
The Bard's Archeologist archetype can get most of those talents, (and qualifies for extra rogue talent if you want more, can buff himself, and brings spells to the table. The rogue has Slow Reactions, and the Archeologist has to settle for hasting and good hoping the party.
Poison traps are seldom remedied by CLW, and they're by far the most effective form of trap for the very reason you mention.
Anyone you put in front in place of the rogue is likely to have a good fort save
Most of the Symbol traps and Sepia Snake Sigil don't even do hit point damage.
Magic traps have pretty much been nerfed by the ability to spam detect magic ad nauseum.
No particular class is necessary, of course, but the Rogue does have the skill points to burn to plug nearly any gap in skills the group may have.
Most groups of 4 can manage to do the same thing with a little teamwork.
Hey guys, I'm in the exact opposite situation of the OP, but in need of similar advice.
I've got this character that made the cut for a PbP in a high seas setting campaign, and his original purpose was to be a rogue with a dash of swashbuckler thrown in. The rest of the group is a witch, an oracle, and magus. Their are two npc's, a ninja whom dropped and is being ran by the gm probably until there is a good opportunity for him to leave the party (shadow style!) and a npc woman, who is probably an aristocratic npc class.
The thing is, from what I can tell, is that the part has no fighters, tanks, or essentially damage dealers. The magus, ninja, oracle are wild cards to me. I have been thinking about taking a more martial role with the character, and I thought some advice from you guys could help. Luckily I'm still level 1, and the campaign is early. I have not asked the gm to "remake the character" and If possible would like to avoid that. The character's stats are not too bad, but as I said, this character was not meant as the main fighter of the party when built.
Anyway, here is what I have so far, and I really don't have any plans where I am going to take him yet. I was thinking of staying rogue until level 4 since the BaB won't be an issue until level 5, and with swashbuckler, I can take 2 combat feats in place of rogue talents.
Rogue 1 (swashbuckler)
CG Medium humanoid (Human)
Init +6
Senses Perception +5
==DEFENSE==
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+4 dex, +2 Armor)
hp 3 Temp 0 NL 0
Total hp 11 (1d8+3)
Cmd 15
Fort +2
Ref +6
Will +1
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft./x4
Melee: Shortsword +4 (1d6+1 19/x2)
Melee: Shortsword +2(1d6+119/x2) & Dagger +2 (1d4 19/x2)
Ranged: Dagger +4 (1d4+1 19/x2)
Melee: Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+1 20/x2) {Nonlethal, provokes AoO
Sneak Attack +1d6
Cmb +1
==Skills==
Acrobatics +8
Climb +5
Disable Device +9
Disguise +4
Escape Artist +8
Knowledge (geography) +5
Perception +5
Stealth +8
Survival +6
==STATISTICS==
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +0, Cmb +1, Cmd +15
Feats Armor Proficiency (Light) (PFCR 118), Two-weapon Fighting (PFCR 136), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136)
Languages Common
==WEALTH & GEAR==
0 gp 0 sp 0 cp
Combat Gear None
Other Gear Explorer's outfit
Class Abilities
• ROGUE WEAPONS AND ARMOR - All simple weapons, hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. All light armor, but no shield. (PFCR 68).
• MARTIAL TRAINING (Ex) - Throwing axe proficiency. Combat trick can be taken up to two times. This replaces trapfinding.
• SNEAK ATTACK - Deal +1d6 sneak attack damage in addition to weapon damage any time the enemy is denied a dexterity bonus to AC or is flanked by the rogue. Ranged attacks must be within 30 feet to do sneak attack damage. (PFCR 68).
Traits
• Reactionary (Combat) - +2 Initiative. (PFCT 4)
• Navigator (Campaign) - +1 to survival and Knowledge (Geography), both class skills.
One last note, we started with no equipment due to being captured by pirates, so everything on the character is looted off of pirates.
Any Thoughts?
If you rather me set up a new thread, that is fine too.
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ring of blinking + flasks of Acid/Alchemist Fire/Etc + quickdraw & bandoleer = dead stuff in 3.5.
Can't sneak attack with flasks in PF, so that's the biggest change there.
(Ring of Invisibility + Ring of Telekinesis + Pile of Alchemist Supplies was just as bad, if not worse...)
Standing in the 5' square of your own dropped Smokestick was the easiest trick.
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the party has no fighters, tanks, or essentially damage dealers. I have been thinking about taking a more martial role with the character, and I thought some advice from you guys could help. Luckily I'm still level 1, and the campaign is early.
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +0, Cmb +1, Cmd +15
Feats Armor Proficiency (Light) (PFCR 118), Two-weapon Fighting (PFCR 136), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136)
Buy Ultimate Combat.
02 rogue2 [combat trick:EWP(wakizashi)]
03 barba1 [Urban archetype], Extra Rage
04 rogue3 DEX>19, SA+2d6
05 rogue4 [weapon training:Weapon Focus(Wakizashi)], Piranha Strike
6-9 rogue5-8 or fighter[weapon master:wakizashi]1-3
10+ rogue+
Equipment: +1/Agile wakizashis (two), MW STR+1 composite longbow, mithral chainshirt, Belt of Incredible Dexterity
Longer-term equipment: +2/Agile/Furious wakizashis (two), Celestial Armor, Oathbow.
Downside of this particular build: dreadful willsaves. Fix: a couple levels of monk [zen archer] for all saves +3, bow-flurry, Perfect Shot, Precise Shot (without needing PBS) and WF:longbow, and de-facto rapid shot as if monk levels were fighter levels in relation to BAB. -- You'll have two primary attacks with bows or melee+light weapons.
Several other classes can out-stealth the rogue, many classes have archetypes that can detect and disable traps as a rogue, and I can't think of a class that brings less to a group than a rogue.The point i'm trying to make is that it shouldn't matter that another character is doing more damage a rouge is not ment to be a damage monster everyone in the group has a role that they should be best at. I mean do the other players worry when the rouge is more stealthy than them ? or that he can pick locks and disable traps far more easily.
I think you decided to play the rouge for what ever reason so just except that other characters are going to better than you at some things and thats fine because that makes team work all the more important so just except that you cant be great at every thing and just enjoy time with friends playing a very cool game
and in my experience it's the cool PARTYS that get remembered
So what you are saying is that several classes can do what a single class can do? How is this a problem for the rogue if it's taking 2+ classes to fill his role? I can name several classes that can dominate with just their spells? Does that mean that the wizard, sorcerer, cleric, or other major spell casting class isn't good at it's job? Nope. So your logic is flawed. It's not a single aspect of the rogue that one should consider. It's the whole package.
No matter what though, the problem is that the player wants to play a consistently heavy hitter and the rogue is not designed that way. People need to play the class as designed. Yes, it is possible to work outside that design, to a point. In the end though people need to work within the confines of the class.
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Just curious if they went adopted and stated they had their teeth filed sharp by "mom" how is that not acceptable?It's a matter of interpretation. As a GM, I wouldn't say that someone whose regular human (or even smaller) teeth were filed down had anything even approaching "tusks" - no amount of filing can make your teeth larger than they already are. Characters physically already have the equipment (teeth) required to bite -- filing them doesn't make them as deadly as being stabbed with a dagger.
Rule of Oops or unintended consequences. :D
The first time you get a regeneration spell your teeth return those of a normal human instead of your filed ones (together with some other "body modification" disappearing).
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Or you can use it for different things like tripping. If you have only one weapon you use you should have a feat free for Improved Trip. Then use your Bite attack every time it hits to try to trip the enemy. It's no difference whats so ever which attack you give up for that maneuver so just use your free additional attack to deliver a free trip attempt every round. No need for fancy item slots or anything because you don't need any fancy weapon abilities for tripping.
I seriously doubt that. You need to use the secondary attack to get the secondary attack.
You can't say "I have a secondary attack, but instead of using it I am using that extra attack to perform a attack maneuver". The needed requisite to get the secondary attack is to use the secondary attack.So you either get trip as part of your bite attack (like a wolf) or you can't trip with it.
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The rogue is MAD with charisma, dex, and con at least since he's stuck with face and scout and trap duty.
Rogues don't need much in the way of CON or CHA or even INT for that matter. Some (12s) is nice, but they hardly need to murder DEX to get it.
Plain-vanilla human rogue who actually doesn't suck and get killed like most of 'em:
STR:12
DEX+17 (all bumps)
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:12
x Improved Feint
y [Fast Getaway]
Your Get-out-of-a-Jam card. E.g., you're trapped in a corner by a reach monster. Improved Feint >>> Sneak Attack >>> Vamoose! ...a fighter in your position doesn't have this luxury -- he must beat the thing one-up or rely on allied support...or he's shredded.
All the whiners who complain about rogue output being subpar do not look at the Big Picture ability of the class to evade damage in myriad situations aside from just AoE.
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What splat, what edition version, and what page# is that thing on?What, you mean the Oenopion Fleshforge one? That one that lets you reduce one score by 2 to get a +2 inherent bonus on another? Oh wow, how overpowered.Inner Sea Magic. Alchemist flavoured School.
200gp entry, 15x the experiment for 1 fame, 15x 100gp for 15 semesters.
Means 30 Feats. And 20 prestige you have to spend for the +2 inherent bonus on an attribute of your choice.
Or how do you like the 700gp (at most) bonus Toughness feat? You like? I do!Paizo starts looking even worse than TSR with their deluge of supplements they throw onto the market who are horribly made and horribly balanced.
I will look up those runestones of power ;)
EDIT: HOLY!!!111 How many books did it take Paizo to not introduce only a darkvision item but also a low light vision item? But its right there in this splatbook!
Inner Sea Magic:
Enhancement (30 Fame, 20 PP) Once your Fame score reaches 30, you earn the right to undergo a special ritual made available to members of the fleshforges in good standing. It allows you to permanently reduce any ability score of your choice by 2 points in order to gain a +2 inherent bonus to any other ability score of your choice. You can only gain the
benefits of this ritual once.
Considering that the same magic Guild, the Oenopion Fleshforges, will give you 1 point of fame for being experimented upon, and that those experiments do 1d6 ability damage every day for 1d6 days to a random characteristic [I think re-rolled each day] and you can't get the benefits of restorative magic or the experiment will fail (that caveat is in the fluff about fleshwarping), I don't see getting 30 fame as a easy endeavour.
The other way to earn fame and PP (beside specific adventure created by the GM and meant to be Guild sponsored missions) is to succeed in your school tests.You can make a 1 roll for your school test and be the subject of experimentation once each every semester.
That mean that your characters is spending seven and a half years in school and being experimented upon 15 times to get that inherent +2 (at the cost of a -2 to another characteristic).
As it is not stackable with other inherent bonuses I don't see this option as a problem.
Some bad roll and you can salute your character.
Then there is the little problem that to accrue fame and PP you need to be enrolled in the school and frequent it. So you will be very restricted in your extra curricular activities.
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"Guys, the rogue class is really great. There's lots of stuff a rogue can do that no other class can!"
Okay, what do you have?
"Tons of skill points!"
Oh, so he can take care of the knowledge skills, like a bard?
"Well no, but he can disable traps!"
That's just one skill. Does he get canny defence to synergize with his intellect?
"No, but he can stop enemies from taking attacks of opportunity!"
Cool! So he stuns them when he attacks?
"No, and he has to flank them first. But then he does a little bit more damage."
Do you have anything else?
"Roleplaying!"
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Alright, I stand corrected. That leaves the Deft Palms talent as the only option I know of.Bandit archetype with Quick Draw, the "Betrayer" feat and the "Deft Palm" talent are all good options.
For a low cost option (no feat and only 5 gp)
Wrist Sheath, spring loaded -> swift action and no need for a featFor a high cost option (10.000 gp)
Glove of Storing -> Storing or retrieving the item is a free action.
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Alright, I stand corrected. That leaves the Deft Palms talent as the only option I know of.Bandit archetype with Quick Draw, the "Betrayer" feat and the "Deft Palm" talent are all good options.For a low cost option (no feat and only 5 gp)
Wrist Sheath, spring loaded -> swift action and no need for a featFor a high cost option (10.000 gp)
Glove of Storing -> Storing or retrieving the item is a free action.
Errata: Maybe the wrist sheath won't work as apparently you can't take swift actions in the surprise round.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.....
Swift Actions
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
Swift actions seem to be explicitly excluded from the actions that you can make during a surprise round.
But in the swift action description it say that you can take them anytime you can take free action.A bit of contradiction between the RAW.
That's precisely the problem. The package isn't good, at least compared to other skill classes. The rogue is the best at skills by a very slim margin if at all, but it's combat capacity is in the running for worst PC class. As soon as a party is willing to not shovel all the noncombat skills onto one chassis they can provide better skills and better combat capability because most classes are a lot better in combat than the rogue including those that are only slightly behind in skills.
I can tell that a rogue is not a welcome class at your table, and that's fine. However you are making an assumption based on your preferred play style. The rogue is very welcome at my table because it fits my play style.
Fighter Wizard Cleric Rogue: 14+int skillpoints
The rogue is MAD with charisma, dex, and con at least since he's stuck with face and scout and trap duty. Everyone else can be SAD, but apart from the wizard as know it all there's no skill synergy.
How is the rogue MAD? Of course it's going to depend on the build, but I have never had a problem building an effective rogue using only the elite array. I also tend to play the character as I have designed it. If I want the rogue to be more effective in combat, then I build him that way. If I want him better with more skills, then I build him that way. If I want a little of both, then I build him that way.
Trapspotting isn't the lynchpin for the rogue class. In other words, the class doesn't fall apart if that ability is removed. It is there for those types of games where GMs use plenty of traps. I'm running Age of Worms, and there have been traps all the way through, including a nasty one in the latest adventure. The party is level 20. They couldn't get past the trap so they set it off. There wasn't a rogue or other trap dealing character. If they had one, they wouldn't have wasted resources dealing with the trap and still setting it off.
There are plenty of ways to build characters. Some are meant to fill multiple roles. There should be some overlap. Overlap helps a party deal with tougher issues or lets the understudy do something when the main character is unable to perform his duties. The other thing that it does is it allows the party to Aid Another more often. I see Aid Another used almost every session. This allows them to learn more about the enemy by increasing the result by up to +6. That may not seem like a lot, but it's one more bit of information.
The key to playing a rogue isn't to take all the knowledge skills. It isn't to put ranks into several perform skills. It's to place your abundant skill points into appropriate skills that let you be a mundane aid to the party so that the casters aren't wasting their limited resources.
If the rogue is played as a tank, he will be tanked hard. He isn't meant for that. I'm sure that someone can build one that could be successful, but that wouldn't be the norm.
I also noticed that you mentioned a bunch of spellcasters. There are plenty of players that dislike playing spellcasters. Also, spellcasters have limited resources that require at 1 round to activate (even if it's only a standard action, that round was used to activate the ability). The rogue just goes in, activated.
How different pathfinder must have made the rogue...
I read this with a sense of nostalgia. I remember my group back in 3.5e having a very very different conversation. We were concerned about the unstoppable torrent of damage the rogue was putting out. Easily over 10 times as much as the fighter. Mind you the rogue was one of a pair of power gamers that I played with, the other one of the pair being our wizard. The amount of damage those two could work together to achieve was staggering. I wish I could put you in contact with him... but I lost touch with him. I am sure he could have made your rogue truly frightening.
Funny thing, stealth nerfing happened (as in nerfing secretly).
All the avenues to sneak attack were closed by the designers.Grease, Blink, etc.
Even though they did open defenses to be sneak attacked (Crit immunity no longer blocks it).
So, assuming your 10° level rogue out damaged... Let's look at him this way: 15 point buy: 18 15 12 10 10 7 at 10°: 19 16 12 10 10 7
Human, 9rogue 1fighter, Weapon focus, power attack, toughness, improved initiative (you can consider a skill focus: acrobatics), Vital strike (yes vital strike!), improved critical, critical focus, this kind of stuff.
You should have, at 10° level, at least a +4 str and a +2 two handed sword. Your dmg output flanking would be +15 (7 BAB+ 5 str + 2weapon +1 w.focus +2 flanking -2 PA) for 9d6 +15 +5 bleed damage. Next level you will be hitting for +15, 10d6+18+6. On single hit.
I think you will be not be outdamaged so often with this setup.
reaching 3° fighter level grants you armor training (mithrall breastplate with no penalty), 4° weapon focus, 5° level weapon training!
Yo