hi, i was re-reading the Prc and I cant find why shouldnt every generalist wizard take it, I know that in pathfinder being a specialist is way better, but even though a diviner or a necromancer (for example and prolly for roleplay) could take it too, the requirements are something that most lvl 7 wiz have so no sacrifice there, any thoughts?
There is the loss of 2 free spells known per level. 3 if he uses the human favored class bonus for 1 extra spell per level for wizard.
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Though at the extra spells known as a wizard are not that big of a deal...unless it's low magic setting. Then it's really your onlychance get the spells you need.
Otherwise a high level wizard will eventually buy scrolls and add them to his spell books. Sell his services as a caster should be more than adequate to cover all that. Then of course there is Hirelings and the Leadership feat. Have a wizard cohort research all those spells you need as an apprentice.
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I think that between wasting a feet on skill focus, loosing 1 hp per level (favored class bonus), and not getting your improved school spec bonuses, and missing bonus feets a wizard makes significant trades to be a loremaster.
You can get to 8th level which gets you access to your second wizard specialist ability although limited in its per day allotment(stuck at 8 for a long while and maxes at 10). You give up two bonus feats from wizard, but gain one back from a secret and you get the other secrets to choose from. I would say take 8 levels of wizard then start into loremaster; you are giving up very little for some cool toys. I am not sure it is the optimal choice, but the trade-off is very equitable.
1. Most wizards don't want to spends their first four feats on Metamagic, Item Creation, and Skill Focus.
Skill Focus in a Knowledge is completely redundant for a wizard (especially for Loremasters), and there are plenty of other feats I would rather have to start (Improved Initiative, Improved Familiar, and dozens of specialized feats). So while I may eventually have 3 Metamagic or Item Creation feats- getting them all that early is a little harsh.
2. Even generalist wizards have class abilities they are giving up. Metamagic mastery is nothing to be laughed at (especially since you know all these metamagic feats now), and you are giving up bonus feats (with the option of picking up some feat like abilities as a Loremaster).
3. You are also undervaluing the benefit of automatically learning new spells. What happens if you level up in the middle of an adventure out in the middle of no where? A vanilla wizard automatically has new spells (possibly at a higher level!) for the rest of the adventure. Going to a magic mart immediately upon leveling isn't always a valid option. That's also extra cash in your pocket at every level that you didn't have to spend on new spells.
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1. Most wizards don't want to spends their first four feats on Metamagic, Item Creation, and Skill Focus.
Skill Focus in a Knowledge is completely redundant for a wizard (especially for Loremasters), and there are plenty of other feats I would rather have to start (Improved Initiative, Improved Familiar, and dozens of specialized feats). So while I may eventually have 3 Metamagic or Item Creation feats- getting them all that early is a little harsh.
2. Even generalist wizards have class abilities they are giving up. Metamagic mastery is nothing to be laughed at (especially since you know all these metamagic feats now), and you are giving up bonus feats (with the option of picking up some feat like abilities as a Loremaster).
3. You are also undervaluing the benefit of automatically learning new spells. What happens if you level up in the middle of an adventure out in the middle of no where? A vanilla wizard automatically has new spells (possibly at a higher level!) for the rest of the adventure. Going to a magic mart immediately upon leveling isn't always a valid option. That's also extra cash in your pocket at every level that you didn't have to spend on new spells.
I'm may be undervaluing spells learned per level. Though at higher level the gold is moot. Granted this is dependent on teh GM, campaing, and all the other usual factors.
I play generalist wizards specificly for their lv 8 ability. Loremaster is a neat class, though wizard discoveries and straight spellcasting usually warrants the need to stay in the class. It's not exactly like it's archmage or abjurant champion.
I stand buy the stance that a powerful enough wizard doesn't need to worry about gold. Look at Razamiran.
i forgot about the skill focus (maybe a half elf could be more suitable for the class then?) i also think that waiting for lvl 8 power then entering the loremaster class is better, also, isnt useful to get those many feats that the lore ability grants? its like you will end less focused but better protected, also if int is high enough, you can choose any feat through lore too
and...if i may ask something else, i see that many ppl say that the metamagic power of a generalist is huge, i kinda dont see how, i find the lvl 8 ability a little bland and only useful at a very high lvl
pls correct me if im wrong :)
If it was universally that good its praises would be sang on the board. I have seen threads calling it lackluster. If it is OP's for a group I can only chalk it up to playstyle.
hi, i was re-reading the Prc and I cant find why shouldnt every generalist wizard take it,
If you take it, you don't get the every-two-levels-starting-at-8th improvement in the universalist wizard ability to on-the-fly metamagic spells at no spell level increase, you don't get two free spells in your book/level, your familiar (if any) doesn't increase in power, you miss out on bonus feats and/or discoveries (Ultimate Magic), you miss out on favored class bonuses, and you have to spend a feat on Skill Focus.
Loremaster might come out ahead, but it's not a slam dunk if you don't care about knowledge skills (like because the party has a bard).
why wouldnt i add 2 spells to my spellbook everytime I lvl? PrC cut that off?
Prerequisite: You must be at least an 11th-level Wizard and must have the Craft Staff feat to select this discovery.
Benefit: Similar to using a magic staff, you use your own Intelligence score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against spells you cast from a wand, and you can use your caster level when activating the power of a wand if it’s higher than the caster level of the wand.
I would never leave Wizard until I picked this up. Its that good. Opposition Research for a specialist is the same but we are talking about a universalist.
well, this gives me a whole new perpective about it, thx a lot
There is the loss of 2 free spells known per level. 3 if he uses the human favored class bonus for 1 extra spell per level for wizard.
Huh? What's this guy talking about? Bonus spell per level for being human..?
There is the loss of 2 free spells known per level. 3 if he uses the human favored class bonus for 1 extra spell per level for wizard.Huh? What's this guy talking about? Bonus spell per level for being human..?
APG, human wizards can take a bonus spell known (up to 1 level lower than their highest spell known) instead of +1 HP or SP as their favoured class bonus.
I'd say Loremaster is about equal, maybe a tad better if you are a half-elf and get the SF feat for free. Overall, though... you lose 2 spells known/level and whatever your favoured bonus is, 2 wizard feats, and whatever your school progression is, and you tie in your early feats. You gain 2 more skills per level, bardic knowledge, 2 more languages (pfft... 2 ranks in linguistic, only without the ranks), and the lore abilities. Overall, decent if you want a skill monkey wizard, but I'd probably stick to core wizard regardless. Most PrCs in pathfinder aren't worth the effort imo.
Oh, thanks FallofCamelot and The Shaman. I don't have the APG so I was totally unaware of this.
Oh, thanks FallofCamelot and The Shaman. I don't have the APG so I was totally unaware of this.
Neither do I technically, but the Pathfinder SRD is updated pretty regularly. d20pfsrd.com for the win ;) .
Yes. Only what is mentioned under Spells is transferred to prestige classes that increase spell casting.
The extra spells per level is written under Spellbooks and therefore not transferred.
Technically, it doesn`t matter what part of the Class the features are gained from, what matters is that the PrC specifies EXACTLY what features you gain `from the class`. You gain the things it mentions (from whichever class ability may supply them) and you don`t get anything it doesn`t mention. It says SPONTANEOUS CASTERS gain Spells Known, but that obviously doesn`t apply to Wizard-Loremasters getting free spells in their spellbook.
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Honestly, I don`t see what the big deal about Loremaster is, nothing it grants compares to Wizard Class Abilities, not to mention loss of Favored Class and it`s Pre-Reqs. With what you invest in it`s pre-reqs, you can just buy yourself a bunch of Skill Focus: Knowledges (or special Feat abilities ala Take 10 on Knowledge, or re-roll Knowledge, etc), while continuing in your base Class you are getting 1 more potential Skill Rank per level (Favored Class). If you are an INT-based character, your Knowledge Skill Checks should be mostly fine anyways (esp. if you invest in them as per above).
Probably the only combo that really makes much sense to me is using Oracle of Lore to qualify for it. Oracle of course being the Class that you can buy many of it`s Class Features via Feat, so multi-classing isn`t that big of a deal. And being CHA based, you might not actually be able to max all your Knowledge Skills, unlike a Wizard for whom that`s trivially easy if they want to (same for Languages known).
For similar reasons, Loremaster can also work well with Clerics or Druids... BTW, Cleric/Druid Spellcasting is worded such that Domain Spells are automatically included when you can Cast a given spell level, so you continue gaining new ones with this PrC. In fact, I find the Cleric/Loremaster Combo over-all better than the Cloistered Cleric variant, because you get a 2nd domain for a bit more variety in abilities and Spells Known... Basically the only things againt normal Cleric/Loremaster vs. Cloistered Cleric is that CC will have more powerful Channel Energy (not related to it`s theme) and Favored Class benefits. Cloistered Cleric + Lore Master just seems over-kill.
Given that Cleric already worked fine with Loremaster, Cloistered Cleric just doesn`t offer enough to make up for what it gives up... IMHO, it`s design flaw was fixating on the idea that HD and BAB can`t be changed from it`s normal class. HD and BAB are honestly not that important, and can and should be changeable (by Archetypes) when appropriate - as was done in 3.5 Cloistered Cleric. 3.5 CC was probably a bit too strong, but keeping the d8 HD and 3/4 BAB does not actually help the CC theme at all, while preventing other abilities from being implemented, lest it be `too good` as a package.
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And then when you look at what Loremaster actually gives you, you just have to LAUGH at the list of secrets... I mean... they`re all basically just zero-pre-req Feats. WHAT A SECRET! Loremaster seems like the Class where all the Ultimate Magic Arcane Discoveries should have gone into. Which Paizo could have done in UM, make those features for this PrC. But it seems to have been mostly abandoned/forgotten, and abilities that thematically fit it go to other classes.
Why has nobody here mentioned the Cyphermage that has just popped up on the PSFRD from Inner Sea Magic? Tons of goodies for scroll lovers, and it actually makes symbol traps worth looking into. You also get huge defenses against any such traps, so read away whatever you pick up. I would say that the Cyphermage is what the Loremaster should have been, and trumps it by such a wide margin that it makes it all but obsolete.
Heck, I would consider taking Cyphermage to be the default choice now, with (10 Wizard)/(10 Cyphermage), either getting to level 10 wizard first to get the most out of favored class and the domain abilities, or heading straight Cyphermage at lv 6 to get those scroll tricks all the quicker.
With the right Cypher Lore, scrolls go from reliable utility to customizable power shots in their own right.
Oh, forgot to mention the incredibly negligible pre reps. Knowledge History and Arcana(lol) at rank 5, Linguistics at 2 and two specific languages, and scribe scroll. Your not sacrificing anything at all to qualify for this class.
Now, As far as flavor go, I would call it a tie between the the Cyphermage and the Diabolist. Such yummy caster level goodness the both of them, and they also get a ton of class goodies as they level up, something a pure wizard sorely lacks (Arcane discoveries are rather mild).