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My friend is playing a crossblooded sorcerer, and found to his horror that if the -1 spell known per level is active from the get-go, he will not get his first lv2 spell before lv5, which seems a tad harsh.
I have seen many people follow the old "minimum 1" imperative from earlier similar classes, but would like to know if the same rule goes for this archetype?
My friend is playing a crossblooded sorcerer, and found to his horror that if the -1 spell known per level is active from the get-go, he will not get his first lv2 spell before lv5, which seems a tad harsh.
I have seen many people follow the old "minimum 1" imperative from earlier similar classes, but would like to know if the same rule goes for this archetype?
I run it by RAW and sorcerer's don't get higher level spells until a level later. Double Bloodline Arcana and skills is a nice bonus. As well as the abilty to mix and match bloodline powers.
My friend is playing a crossblooded sorcerer, and found to his horror that if the -1 spell known per level is active from the get-go, he will not get his first lv2 spell before lv5, which seems a tad harsh.
I have seen many people follow the old "minimum 1" imperative from earlier similar classes, but would like to know if the same rule goes for this archetype?
There is no minimum, and this means that crossblooded sorcerers get access to spells 2 levels after their wizard counterparts. I find that this makes them really unplayable, and only good for a 1 level dip (something I hate).
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My friend is playing a crossblooded sorcerer, and found to his horror that if the -1 spell known per level is active from the get-go, he will not get his first lv2 spell before lv5, which seems a tad harsh.
I have seen many people follow the old "minimum 1" imperative from earlier similar classes, but would like to know if the same rule goes for this archetype?
this can be broken if you dont mind having to wait 2 levels after a wizard to get you next spell level. but with serpent and undead blood lines your charm and dominate person/monster, and all those other spells that usually only effect living targets make a splash against undead. and the deeper you go into levels the more crazy hard it is for your targets to save against them.
would i play that character? yeah but i wouldn't expect to be the number one caster at the table either, as far as diversity goes. charmers are sweet to role play, only time i will EVER play a female is if im going sorcerer charmer.
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I can see a Crossblooded Sorcerer working as a 1 level dip for a blasting Wizard using the Primal (Fire) and Orc bloodlines.
I just don't see the option being of benefit to any Sorcerer builds, though.
If you go straight Sorcerer, though, it's kind of feels like a Mystic Theurge without the Divine spells, and you suck right from the get-go. The Wizard in the group is a full two levels ahead of you in spell progression.
Just house rule that there is a minimum of one spell known per spell level, i think that the -2 to will saves and -1 spell known per spell level are enough payment for the extra arcana and the added versatility on choices.
If you intent to play a crossblooded sorcerer in PFS though you are f****d.
Also remember that although you don't have higher level spells at the level you would normally get you still have the slots, which means that you can use those slots for casting lower level spells.
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wizards get 2nd level spells at 3rd level - accepted
sorcerors get theirs at 4th level normally - accepted
crossblooded know one less spell per level which brings it to 0 spells at 4th level - this does not equal no spells known - its the equivalent of a ranger at 4th level with 0 spells shown on pg 66 corerule book which states
"When Table 3–12 indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level"
add in charisma for bonus spells even with 14 charisma you get a 2nd level spell bringing you back to one 2nd level spell known at 4th
I dont have a problem with this given the benefits of the bonuses received as crossblooded
Sorcerers do not get extra spells known for a higher charisma. They only get extra spell slots. They would have a lot of second level slots but wouldn't know any spells at that level.
wizards get 2nd level spells at 3rd level - accepted
sorcerors get theirs at 4th level normally - accepted
crossblooded know one less spell per level which brings it to 0 spells at 4th level - this does not equal no spells known - its the equivalent of a ranger at 4th level with 0 spells shown on pg 66 corerule book which states
"When Table 3–12 indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level"
add in charisma for bonus spells even with 14 charisma you get a 2nd level spell bringing you back to one 2nd level spell known at 4th
I dont have a problem with this given the benefits of the bonuses received as crossblooded
Ceefood, you've confused spells known (Spontaneous casters) with spells per day. This reduces the sorcerer's spells known, not spells per day.
You can still use the spells per day for metamagic and lower level spells, though. Heighten spell will do a lot of good for a crossblooded sorcerer.
I find that this really hurts the most at the lower levels. I am playing one in a party of 5 (Fighter, Ranger, Cleric, Alchemist, Inquisitor/Rouge, and Sorcerer.) I tend to play Sorcerer's as blasters so I crossblooded Arcane/Draconic. I also had to take some utility spells that I might not have otherwise due to being the only arcane caster in the group.
One of the things (I think SKR) a dev pointed out in the first few forums discussing this topic was that you still have viable/castable spell slots for those levels, just no spells known. So you could use metamagic to hit them, or just cast lower level spells in them, or even take the feat which would give you an additional spell known at a level you can currently cast (If you find it to be that big a deal.) Personally Black Tentacles was worth the feat to have a level early, but nothing else really grabbed my attention as a must.
Gifted Adept and Magical Lineage for Magic Missile + Toppling Spell made for a pretty good damage/control combo for several early levels.
I have seen many people follow the old "minimum 1" imperative from earlier similar classes, but would like to know if the same rule goes for this archetype?
IMHO, if you houserule in "minimum 1" the crossblooded sorcerer becomes way too good -- you'll never see non-crossblooded sorcerers again in that game.
As is, it has about the most painful drawback to an archetype and one of the most powerful advantages of any archetype, which added together comes out interesting and surprisingly balanced. Take the worst part out of the drawback and... not so much anymore.
If you are a human and use the favored class option for sorcerer it is not much of a drawback at all.
Yes it is, unless you start play at 20th level.
A 4th level non-crossblooded sorcerer has a 2nd level spell. A 4th level crossblooded sorcerer doesn't, even as a human using the favored class option.
Ditto 6th and 3rd level, 8th and 4th level, etc. etc. etc. And even at the odd levels they'll have 1 of their 'new' spell level instead of 2.
it's also worth pointing out that since you have the spell slots, and simply no known spells, you can overcome this weakness with the Expanded Arcana feat, at some levels in your career.
You really can't. You get "new" spell levels normally at even levels. You get feats at odd levels.
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If you are a human and use the favored class option for sorcerer it is not much of a drawback at all.
Yes it is, unless you start play at 20th level.
A 4th level non-crossblooded sorcerer has a 2nd level spell. A 4th level crossblooded sorcerer doesn't, even as a human using the favored class option.
Ditto 6th and 3rd level, 8th and 4th level, etc. etc. etc. And even at the odd levels they'll have 1 of their 'new' spell level instead of 2.
Not to mention that the extra spells your Sorcerer gets for the human favored class option will be lower level spells. You won't get a bonus 2nd level spell (for example) until you can cast 3rd level spells at 7th level.
What you lose with Crossblooded exceeds what you gain.
Losing a known spell is bad enough as it hits you twice. Once in the number total known spell and by delaying your ability to cast higher level spells by 1 level. Then on top of that you suffer -2 will saves.
What do you get in exchange for that? You gain an additional class skill and an additional bloodline arcana. You get the option to choose between the two bloodline's bonus feats, Spells and powers.
So I house ruled that you get both bonus spells known. That way you don't really lose a known spell just they are selected for you. You still have the spell progression delayed and you suffer the -2 Will Saves. Seems a little more balance this way and only a minor tweak.
I think you're really underestimating how good Crossblooded can be with the right combination. The optimizers lurking around here have had serious gamer-wood for it since UM was released.
I think you're really underestimating how good Crossblooded can be with the right combination. The optimizers lurking around here have had serious gamer-wood for it since UM was released.
The problem is that its almost certainly better as a one level dip for a Wizard or Witch (or maybe even a Cleric or Oracle) than for a pure Sorcerer. Almost all of the benefits, while still having spell progression in line with a normal Sorcerer.
I believe that the real way to get crossblooded to work is to use Words of Power. That way it doesn't matter (as much) that you aren't getting new spells(words) known... you can simply use the slots by combining lower level words to form higher level spells.
If you have the slots of higher levels spells but don't know any, why not snatch a metamagic feat or 2 early?
combo which is not allowed as both traits are from Magic traits; and you cannot select multiple traits from the same category.
Gifted Adept and Magical Lineage for Magic Missile + Toppling Spell made for a pretty good damage/control combo for several early levels.
Lvl 1 Character Feat - Extra Traits
Lvl 1 Human Feat - Toppling Spell
no, he´s saying YOU CAN´T SELECT TRAITS FROM THE SAME CATEGORY, period.
Taking the Extra Trait Feat doesn´t change that rule.
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I think you're really underestimating how good Crossblooded can be with the right combination. The optimizers lurking around here have had serious gamer-wood for it since UM was released.
The problem is that its almost certainly better as a one level dip for a Wizard or Witch (or maybe even a Cleric or Oracle) than for a pure Sorcerer. Almost all of the benefits, while still having spell progression in line with a normal Sorcerer.
Exactly. Cross-blooded is a Wizard toy.
I think you're really underestimating how good Crossblooded can be with the right combination. The optimizers lurking around here have had serious gamer-wood for it since UM was released.The problem is that its almost certainly better as a one level dip for a Wizard or Witch (or maybe even a Cleric or Oracle) than for a pure Sorcerer. Almost all of the benefits, while still having spell progression in line with a normal Sorcerer.Exactly. Cross-blooded is a Wizard toy.
Are you saying that Wizards got tossed YET ANOTHER bone, except this time it was disguised by having it thrown in the Sorcerer's dish? Heresy! =p
There´s powerful options for ´Blast Evokers´, Enchanters, and Summoners of the top of my head. Probably alot more too.
Spells hardly matter really, but here are some that would be useful:
Shield (1min), Unseen Servant (1hr), Obscuring Mist (1min), Detect Undead/Secret Doors (1min), Magic Aura (1day), Enlarge Person (1min, Expeditious Retreat (1min), Feather Fall (1round)
The 1 level dip in Cross-Blood Sorceror is really great for Summon-focused Summoners, as well as Oracles in general, since there isn´t even any multi-stat dependency. Bards as well can benefit from the stuff expanding usage of Enchantment spells.
Exactly. Cross-blooded is a Wizard toy.Are you saying that Wizards got tossed YET ANOTHER bone, except this time it was disguised by having it thrown in the Sorcerer's dish? Heresy! =p
This is exactly what it is. Let's go through the list of reasons:
One drawback of playing a sorcerer is getting spells one level later.
An additional drawback of playing a crossblooded is getting spells two levels later.
Finally, a crossblooded gets a -2 penalty on will saves.
A wizard with a one level dip gets spells one level later.
This means a wizard with one level of crossblooded gets spells at the same rate as sorcerers normally do without being crossblooded, and the multiclassing affects saves to mitigate the -2 save penalty.
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There is no minimum, and this means that crossblooded sorcerers get access to spells 2 levels after their wizard counterparts. I find that this makes them really unplayable, and only good for a 1 level dip (something I hate).My friend is playing a crossblooded sorcerer, and found to his horror that if the -1 spell known per level is active from the get-go, he will not get his first lv2 spell before lv5, which seems a tad harsh.
I have seen many people follow the old "minimum 1" imperative from earlier similar classes, but would like to know if the same rule goes for this archetype?
I didn't find my sorcerer unplayable. I toughed it out the first few levels and had a plan going in. You shouldn't take cross-blooded just to do it. You should only take cross-blooded if you have a build in mind. Otherwise stick with a single build. Cross-blooded wasn't made to replace the common sorcerer, but to allow sorcerer players an archetype to play with. There are some nifty builds for the cross-blooded sorcerer.
You still have the spell slots which means you can cast metamagic spells in those slots or simply use them to power lower level spells.
Though I do feel that this combined with the -2 on will saves is a bit too harsh for the 'choice' of a handful of good abilities instead of just getting shafted on a regular basis by one bloodline.
Over all it's a very poor option compared to the many choices and abilities other full casters get.
You still have the spell slots which means you can cast metamagic spells in those slots or simply use them to power lower level spells.
Though I do feel that this combined with the -2 on will saves is a bit too harsh for the 'choice' of a handful of good abilities instead of just getting shafted on a regular basis by one bloodline.
Over all it's a very poor option compared to the many choices and abilities other full casters get.
I agree that making it the choice of each power, spell, and feat does make it a bit weak for its drawback. Especially with the Eldritch Heritage feat chain around. Making it so you got both sets of powers would probably make it feel more balanced.
To be honest, I feel the Crossblooded Archetype would be better served is the "Sorcerer Spells per Day" were penalized instead of "Sorcerer Spells Known".
Words of Power makes the crossblooded sorceror well worthwhile, if you take the Experimental Spellcaster feat instead of going full words. Get a word known each level on time to use those slots as they show up.
Otherwise, as said, only for characters high level enough to use their lineaged specialized to-be-perfected mm'd spell, or as a dip.
The "undercasting prodigy" bloodline ability from the psychic bloodline would upgrade any spells known that can be undercast to the highest level version you can cast. It is still restrictive in the sense that the first spells you get of each level will always be only the undercast-able spells from your bonus spells list, but at least you can use those spell slots to their full potential even without metamagic feats.
it's also worth pointing out that since you have the spell slots, and simply no known spells, you can overcome this weakness with the Expanded Arcana feat, at some levels in your career.
Not at levels 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 or 18, where the CBS suffers from not having any spells known at his highest level.
If you are a human and use the favored class option for sorcerer it is not much of a drawback at all.
Getting to pick another 0-level spell known at level 4 instead of a 2nd-level spell, any 2nd level spell at all, is a pretty serious drawback.
The 1 level dip in Cross-Blood Sorceror is really great for Summon-focused Summoners, as well as Oracles in general, since there isn´t even any multi-stat dependency. Bards as well can benefit from the stuff expanding usage of Enchantment spells.
I don't get it. What's in it for the Summoner and the Oracle?
Can a 4th level crossblooded sorcerer buy a 2nd level Page of Spell Knowledge to overcome the lack of 2nd level spells know?
A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is presented on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known.
Page of Spell Knowledge:
she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.
As far as I can tell, yes. The crossblooded sorcerer has spell slots but zero spells known of that level.