
Evershifter |
I hope this is the right area for posting this.
Hello all! I have been turning this over in my head for a while. I'm involved in a LARP event constructed with homebrew rules, which, while decent, could be much better. Those who run the game spend so much time balancing rules and new spells, class abilities, and everything that things just grind to a serious halt. Because they play things so close to the vest, there's no transparency, no way to know what rules everything is based upon. I'm thinking there is a better way.
The Pathfinder system has so much material and so many character possibilities, play tested by so many people and discussed openly here on the forums that I think there is a fine way to adapt it to a Live Action Role Play system.
I would ultimately like to run ideas past all of you, get some feedback and help with converting things and streamlining it for use away from the table, but first, I have one big, important question:
Is this legal under the Open Gaming License?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/openGameLicense.html
I would like to use material from the OGL and basically house-rule the crap out of it. However, it is an event where the player must pay to register and play. I've read through the OGL a bit, and I think it should be okay. Anyone have any experience with this, or with these sort of legal issues in general?

Evershifter |
I'm confused. Are you winking? Possibly have your fingers crossed behind your back? *nudge nudge*?
Heh, no. I work in a law office, and have asked someone to take a peek at things for me in their spare time. Don't need to worry about me taking anyone's advice as more than just advice.
I was hoping that maybe someone who had done something similar before might be interested in chiming in. Or possibly someone from Paizo? Pretty please?

Kolokotroni |

Paizo sells on this website a few modified versions of the ogl rules for pfrpg for 3rd party companies. Others are sold on other websites like drive thru rpg (the new pathfinder modern products come to mind). These products are sold for profit by 3rd parties with not just paizo's consent but their blessing.
So long as you adhere to the standards of the liscense agreement, I cannot imagine paizo taking issue with you charging admission to a pathfinder larp. Heck if it was in the northwest usa i could see some of the staffers turning up for it.

Evershifter |
Okay, I'm starting to feel pretty good about this. Let's do some brainstorming!
for those who have not had the pleasure of partaking in a Live Action Role Play event, one of the biggest issues is that, during a turn-based combat, there is nothing from our various gaming dens to distract us. Because of this, when combat slows down, it really drags on.
So, combat is turn based and I'll be looking for suggestions on how to streamline things and balance them out towards those purposes.
Gonna throw out three ideas here that have been weighing on my mind. Critique, please!
Dice:
Anything that is not a d20, I want to translate into a fixed number. I'm thinking 1/2 of the maximum possible roll. d4=2, d6=3, d8=4, etc.
This will be the first step towards keeping things moving. You roll to hit, you don't roll damage, basically.
No initiative:
Things work best when you need to keep track of less things. In the past, we've divided the round into:
Everyone Takes Their Movement
then
Everyone Takes Their Action
The judge will call the start of a new round, everyone takes any movement they plan to take, then then judge moves around the encounter resolving actions. I would like to keep this idea, though the concept of changing it up appeals to me. Maybe dividing classes into Fast, Medium, and Slow, then having each round have three, mini rounds:
Fast Speeds Move
Fast Speeds Perform Actions
Medium Speeds Move
Medium Speeds Perform Actions
Slow Speeds Move
Slow Speeds Perform Actions
I like this idea, just to enhance the feeling of a pair of Rogues running around a slow Fighter, managing to get their sneak attacks in before he has a chance to clobber one of them. Spells should fit in here somewhere too. Something like, your highest level spell slot is always slow, anything under half your highest level is fast (10th level mage casts 5th level spells slow, 3rd & 4th medium, 1st & 2nd fast).
Multiple attacks:
Multiple attacks from high BAB gotta go. I am okay with an archer using Rapid Shot or a person Two Weapon Fighting to gain a second attack, but I don't want people making 7+ attacks in a round. What are some options for representing these multiple attacks, while limiting rolling as much as possible? Give everyone Vital Strike feats, as appropriate to their BAB? Add a damage/to-hit bonus?
Okay, enough for the time being. Please, everyone. Spitball, brainstorm, PEACH, tear my ideas up, throw your own out there, ask questions, talk about it, let me know what you all think.
This just might get real here!

Blueluck |

I've played, play-tested, run, and written LARPs, and have friends and acquaintances I discuss LARP with who are among the country's top LARP experts. Remember the early days of "How to host a Murder"? One of their first authors is staying in my spare bedroom this week. LARP writers have come from overseas to run LARPs at my house. My roommate is a professor of Games and Learning who's dissertation was on LARP, and we run an ongoing LARP together.
Yeah, I'm basically bragging, and I feel a bit embarrassed about bragging on the internet. However, I'm doing it because I want you to understand that I'm not a just a Pathfinder player who happens to have an opinion about LARP. I'm a serious LARPer who happens to play Pathfinder sometimes.
The OGL material that you would be allowed to use in your game is not suitable for LARP rules.
Tabletop gaming allows for the easy use of reference materials, character sheets, dice, and math during play - LARP does not. AD&D 1st edition, AD&D 2nd, D&D 3rd and 3.5, and Pathfinder are very detailed, simulationist game systems that have evolved over years of play an publication to do one thing well, and that thing is not LARP.
You'd be better off creating a simple system yourself, or using one of the published LARP systems.

Evershifter |
Wow. That's quite a resume`.
I completely understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I've played and loved Pathfinder for the last few years, and I do like crunching numbers to squeeze damage into everything that I can.
However, the significant problem that I have with homebrew systems (or at least with ours) is that there is no... transparency. There is no internet database where anyone can look at what spells are available to what casters at any particular level. No list of feats, or combat rules. A person might ask and, if they're lucky, get a roundabout answer that may not hold up. I wish to do away with that.
I realize that the project I am carving out may end up being a large one, but I feel that with a few sweeping house rules, the game would become playable. As the players begin at low levels, there would be less problems, and the ones that do arise would be able to be dealt with as they come, until a more permanent solution could be arranged in the aftermath.
Whatever we end up playing might end up a relatively low-magic world, which reduced quite a lot of the bookkeeping. In fact, I've been ready a lot about E6/E8 games and thinking that those sort of limitations might work wonderfully into what I am trying to do.
Besides, it's all about having fun with friends anyway. We get some sweeping house-rules sorted out, I think I can show people a good time. If it takes off, and you find yourself in the Midwest, I'll send you an invite and let me know if I've succeeded.

Blueluck |

However, the significant problem that I have with homebrew systems (or at least with ours) is that there is no... transparency. There is no internet database where anyone can look at what spells are available to what casters at any particular level. No list of feats, or combat rules. A person might ask and, if they're lucky, get a roundabout answer that may not hold up. I wish to do away with that.
That, my friend, is a GMing problem, and a tough one to solve. I've been in that situation in more than one LARP campaign, and it usually stems from two things. First, the staff doesn't want to take the time to write everything down. Second, the staff can't agree on exactly what the rules should be, so they argue (hopefully not in front of players), hedge, make changes, and avoid committing anything to "paper".
If the game system you're using seems to be basically a good one, and the players are used to it, you might consider simply committing it to print. That's a fairly large project, but much easier than starting over from scratch, and your current GM staff may welcome the help with open arms.
On the other hand, if you think the current campaign, current system, or current staff simply aren't worth saving, but that there's room for a different fantasy LARP in your area, then maybe you do need to start from scratch.
Whatever we end up playing might end up a relatively low-magic world, which reduced quite a lot of the bookkeeping. In fact, I've been ready a lot about E6/E8 games and thinking that those sort of limitations might work wonderfully into what I am trying to do.
You've expressed a number of ideas/modifications that I think are heading in the right direction, like simplifying initiative and multiple attacks. I'm just not sure why you want to use d20 as your base. It seems to me that your ideas are simply better for LARP than d20 is. What is it in the d20 material that you think will help you write a good LARP?
Besides, it's all about having fun with friends anyway. We get some sweeping house-rules sorted out, I think I can show people a good time. If it takes off, and you find yourself in the Midwest, I'll send you an invite and let me know if I've succeeded.
Well, you're right about that, gaming is all about having fun with friends, and I'm happy that you have a group worth working for.

Evershifter |
Why d20? Short answer: There is an enormous repository of easily accessible rules, feats, classes, spells, and this forum to pose questions and gather interpretations.
I'm actually off to my Homebrew LARP event for the weekend. We play 2-3 times a year, and I'm going to have a talk with the guys who do run things about changing things up a bit.
You've pretty much nailed the problem. We have a tightly knit group of judges who say that they want to run everything, but at the same time they're getting tired of running things, and they all have families and cannot commit the amount of time necessary to take our game past being okay to being great.
Anyway, I'll let you know how things went on Monday!

Blueluck |

Caineach |

Now, I come from a theatrical larp background, not a boffer larp one, so that may skew my judgement a lot, but a d&d character sheet is way to much to remember mid game. So, I have to ask why you want all the overhead of an existing game system. Seriously. Most of the aspects of d20 would be terribly suited to a larp. Most feats are vague in what they do, and how would you do the aoe spells?
1st off: rolling dice: d20 are not fun. They slow the game down and have a ton of variance. In d&d, people tend to roll a lot of d20, so the swings are more ok. In a LARP, you are likely looking at only 3 or 4 rols the whole game. A d20 is a huge amount of varience to rely on, and way more than you need. Additionally, d20 require a place to roll. Its not like you can fit them in a dice bubble, so people would be bending down to roll them on the ground, or the GM would be carrying a box, or players would come up with some other awkward responce. If you want to go with dice for your random elements, I would recommend using a dice bubble with 1-3 mini-d6 in them.
2nd: You want something that will resolve quickly. d20 does not resolve quickly, and it gets complicated with larger groups. I can't count the number of times I have seen a mob decend on the villian. d20 is not the best system for a 10v1.
3rd: its a numbers game. In d&d, HP is in double digits. People can't easily handle large numbers in their head on the fly. They don't want to keep track of 50HP. Constantly writing things down slows the game a lot. I find it best when players don't have to deal with any number over 20 unless it is special, and that is for stuff that doesn't change much. Having HP max at 5 works for many games.
My advice is to homebrew something up, and keep it simple. It can grow as you run games and figure out what people want you to add, but keep it simple, and d20 is not that.
Think about how much the existing d20 rules will complicate things. How do you define flanking? Reach? Tactical movement? I think you will find as you go there will be more you want to toss out than you want to keep, and you would be better off starting from scratch.

Evershifter |
The LARP that we're all used to is a turn based system, so I don't feel like there will be too much information floating around.
Each player basically carries around a condensed character sheet with them, which really holds all the important information. Each player really has to know their character's abilities, but not significantly more than at a tabletop game.
I see the judges having a tablet computer with the PRD downloaded for any quick reference that is needed. Dice rolling programs can take care of the d20s. All other dice I would like to be fixed to speed up the process.
Movement might be tricky. No, movement isn't tricky. Attacks of Opportunity are tricky. Would the system be significantly hampered if we cut out movement-based AoO?

AvalonXQ |

One way to include randomization without needing actual dice.
Cut all of the numbers associated with the d20 in half. Every +2 translates to a +1, etc.
Whenever you need to "roll a d20", both you and your opponent / DM simultaneously reveal between 1 and 10 fingers. Add up the fingers, subtracting 10 if necessary to get a number between 1 and 10.
For the few things where this doesn't work very well, like for instance not expanding a "natural 20" to happen twice as often, you can quickly have people throw for even/odd.

Evershifter |
Also, on the subject of multiple attacks.
I want to cut things down, so that a fighter with one sword makes a single attack to represent all of his attacks for the round. So, simple example:
Fighter 4
Str: 16
To Hit:
BAB +4
Str +3
Wep. Focus +1
Magic Longsowrd +1
Total: +9
Damage:
Lonsword: 4 (d8 maxes at 8, 8/2=4)
Str +3
Wep. Specialization +2
Magic L. Sword +1
Total: 10 pts
At level 6, he will get a second attack at -5. Presumably, this attack will have a 25% less chance to hit, and since it would do the same damage, it's fair to say that this attack will be 25% less effective. Is it fair, then, to simply give him a damage bonus to his one attack equal to his normal damage -25%, rather than giving him a second attack? (10*.75=7.5, round down to 7)
Two weapon fighting will still function as normal.

AvalonXQ |

Why not give him his extra attacks, with the extra targeting opportunities that represents, but make them all operate off the same "d20" roll?
So if I'm a Fighter 6 (+11 to hit), I can target two goblins with my first and second attacks, respectively. I roll a 4, which represents a 15 for my first attack and a 10 for my second attack. I hit the first goblin and miss the second.
This approach reduces the need for "dice" while still giving a high-level fighter the flexibility of multiple targets/attacks.
Actually, even this simplification has the problem of not giving the fighter the same chance of getting off trips, etc as he would usually have.