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Here is my list of spells that I am considering taking as I level up with my Human Oracle.
I've removed all the spells that I gain automatically (Cure spells) and the ones I gain from Haunted and my Dark Tapestry Mystery. I did this to remove the clutter from the list so that hopefully this thread might be useful for anyone who is looking for suggestions for what spells they should pick with their Oracle, regardless of what mystery they pick.
Each spell level contains extra spells gained through the Human's favored class bonus. Each spell level below 9 would have two fewer spells for any other race.
Level 1
Bless
Obscuring Mists
Burning Disarm
Cause Fear
Remove Sickness
Sun Metal
Level 2
Bull's Strength
Hold Person
Silence
Sound Burst
Remove Paralyses
Staggering Fall
Darkness
Level 3
Summon Monster III
Chain of Perdition
Remove Curse
Prayer
Dispel Magic
Remove Disease
Level 4
Freedom of Movement
Blessing of Fervor Dismissal
Dimensional Anchor
Restoration
Neutralize Poison
Level 5
Summon Monster V
Wall of Stone
Spell Resistance
Break Enchantment
Raise Dead
Fickle Winds
Level 6
Heal
Blade Barrier
Dispel Magic: Greater Banishment
Heroes Feast
Level 7
Waves of Esctacy
Destruction
Resurrection
Restoration, Greater
Regeneration
Level 8
Divine Vessel
Earthquake
Spell Immunity, Greater
Stormbolts
Summon Monster VIII
Create Demiplane
Level 9
Miracle
Heal, Mass
True Resurrection
What do you think of my picks? What would you pick instead?
I'm sure I've missed something amazing looking through the list of spells available. What are your favorites? What are your suggestions?
Yeah.. Level 5 is hard, but level 6 is hard to pick ones that aren't crap...
1
I like Divine Favor, but I don't like how it only affects me. I still have a bit of a wizard mentality when I'm picking spells though (The "God" mentality that my job is to make my allies do the busy work)... Definitely a great pick if you go Battle Oracle.
Not sure how I missed Shield of Faith - but then, that's why I made this thread - to catch things I missed. It looks like I missed a bonus spell from being human though, (should have 7 1st level spells by the end) so I think I'll throw that in there.
One of the reasons I went with two of my first level spells is that I intend to pick up Dazing Spell to pop on Burning Disarm and Sun Metal later on for some awesome CC.
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Make whole is definitely a miss on my part.
Not sure if I'm a fan of spiritual weapon apart from essentially giving extra attacks per round. I'd be a bigger fan if it provided a flanking buddy - I think I'd rather pick up Summon Monster II instead, and get some Combat Maneuvers with it.
3.
Resist Energy Communal is actually a pretty good pick I didn't think about... Great for when the circumstance arises, and being a spontaneous caster you're perfect for that role.
Magic Vestment is definitely good...
I didn't even notice Nap Sack. Not too shabby. Kind of an early ring of sustenance for time saving purposes. Nice that it has a radius too, so you only need to cast it once a night.
4.
Definitely like Greater Magic Weapon, but like Magic Vestment, I chose not to pick them because we already have substitutes in the party. Still a great spell if you need to fill that role though.
Thanks for pointing out Spiritual Ally - There's a good solid flanking buddy with the bonus that it can't be destroyed. Not liking the magic resistance thing for higher levels though - not a bad one to keep around for the circumstances where that doesn't matter (Or just pick up spell penetration I guess.)
5.
I agree - too many good ones.
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I think we definitely agree on a lot of the staples too.
I hadn't noticed that Cold Ice Strike is a swift action.
That's actually not too shabby...
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For 2nd level, I like Calm Emotions. This is a great spell that I feel is often overlooked.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard's ability to inspire courage or a barbarian's rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell, condition, or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.
Area of Effect is 20 radius
Medium Range
Duration is Concentration up to 1 round/level
This spell is a nonviolent fireball. Great for breaking up battles. As long as you concentrate the party can finish off everyone who didn't save before tackling those who did. Also great to use against mobs and unruly masses that you don't actually want to kill.
Raging Orc Barbarians? Not anymore.
Evil Bard buffing their side? Nope
Evil Cleric Bless? Not anymore
Did your weak-willed melee allies get confused? You can use this spell to keep them from tearing up your rogue. RAW you don't even have to concentrate for this one as it says it removes the effect, as opposed to just suppressing it as is the case with fear.
There, I made my pitch.
Calm Emotions FTW
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.What's a violent action...
Is attacking for non-lethal damage non-violent?
Is grappling to pin non-violent?
Is summoning a monster non-violent?
Is grabbing the oracle and running away with him to safety acceptable?Is attacking a friend of the victim enough of an aggressive action against the calmed victim enough to break it?
Those are the type of interpretation questions that keep me away from the spell. So, further discussion along those lines would be great!
If your DM is liberal with the interpretation though, I'd say Calm Emotions is the best second level spell.
Most probably better than other CC options like Hold Person - if you're not bloodthirsty and want to coup de grace everything anyway.
Edit: Though the duration of "concentration" limits its use at later levels imo.
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What's a violent action...Is attacking for non-lethal damage non-violent?
Is grappling to pin non-violent?
Is summoning a monster non-violent?
Is grabbing the oracle and running away with him to safety acceptable?Is attacking a friend of the victim enough of an aggressive action against the calmed victim enough to break it?
Those are the type of interpretation questions that keep me away from the spell. So, further discussion along those lines would be great!
Certainly there is some ambiguity here. A quick look at an online dictionary says...
violence
rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment
While grappling isn't necessarily injurious, I would classify it as rough. Nonlethal damage is still damage. If you are attempting to knock someone out, you are certainly being violent.
If pressed for precedent within the rules, I would probably say that anything that would break invisibility would not be allow. So, summoning monsters is okay. Admittedly this is ruling is also somewhat arbitrary.
You are definitely right though. This spell involves some judgment calls on the part of your GM. Like any other interpretable spell, whether or not you select it is going to depend upon your perceptions of your GM.
If these gray areas steer you away, I will not be offended. I just happen to like the spell. I almost always dm though, so I've never cast it as a player. I don't think my players have ever cast it. I think they should though. :)
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Not listing them in any order. Just spells you should look at as a divine caster. There are a few that stand out for there effect. Marking them with *. They are spells I feal are realy important to have. Some spells are most used as wands or scrolls listed after the spell. They are still good to have on your list depending on what kind of character your making.
Level 1
Bless
Obscuring Mists
Burning Disarm
Cause Fear
Command
Comprehend Languages
Doom
Remove Sickness
Sun Metal (Only melee character)
Divine Favor (Only combat character)
Level 2
Grace
Hold Person
Silence
Sound Burst
Remove Paralyses
Resist Energy*
Restoration, Lesser (Wand)
Spear of Purity
Spiritual Weapon
Align Weapon (Only combat character)
Ghostbane Dirge (Only combat character)
Weapon of Awe (Only combat character)
Level 3
Bestow Curse
Blindness-Deafness*
Chain of Perdition
Remove Curse
Prayer
Dispel Magic
Remove Disease
Level 4
Freedom of Movement (Scroll)
Blessing of Fervor (Scroll)
Dismissal
Dimensional Anchor
Restoration (Scroll)
Spiritual Ally*
Tongues
Neutralize Poison
Divine Power (Only combat character)
Level 5
Break Enchantment
Breath of Life (Scroll)
Command, Greater
Ghostbane Dirge, Mass
Holy Ice*
Wall of Stone
Spell Resistance
Raise Dead (Scroll)
Fickle Winds
True Seeing (Scroll)
Righteous Might (Only combat character)
Level 6
Heal* +(Scroll)
Blade Barrier
Cold Ice Strike
Dispel Magic: Greater
Banishment
Symbol of Persuasion (Scroll)
Heroes Feast (Scroll)
Level 7
Waves of Esctacy
Destruction*
Resurrection (Scroll)
Restoration, Greater (Scroll)
Regeneration (Scroll)
Holy Word
Level 8
Divine Vessel
Earthquake
Stormbolts
Level 9
Miracle
Heal, Mass* +(Scroll)
True Resurrection
Energy Drain*
Etherealness
Implosion
Re OP:
Very nice list.
My quibble would be this: the oracle, as a spontaneous caster with a limited list of spells known, should generally avoid taking spells that have effects that can be duplicated by other spells.
For instance, when you look at what all Heal can take care of, some of the lower level spells become a bit superfluous. Especially once the oracle gets to where he can drop numerous heal spells in a day (and don't forget he can always use higher level slots to cast lower level spells), things like remove sickness, remove disease, and neutralize poirson become obsolete. Likewise with say Remove Curse and Break Enchantment.
Granted there may be some benefit to the lower level spell at times, such as Remove Curse having a casting time of 1 Standard vs Break Enchantments 1 minute casting time. Or Restoration's much more manageable material cost vs Greater Restoration. (Although how often does one figure on casting Greater Restoration? If you have access to Miracle, then that is probably sufficient to cover those cases, so why take the Greater version of Restoration when Miracle can cover those situations.)
I understand that a spontaneous caster's spell list will be much more organic when the character is played from lvl 1 onwards. But there is a mechanism for sifting out lower level spells as one progresses. So I would think you could probably drop out a few of those spells that are duplicated by other spells in order to get access to other abilities.
But otherwise, very nice list!
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That would be a potential precedence for the victim's actions for certain.
What would be a good precedence for the opposite side, where it is broken by an agressor...
"Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures."
An aggressive action wouldn't necessarily have to be a physical action directly to the victim to be aggresive, would it? Example: If an aggressor were to kill the victim's ally, is that an aggressive enough action against the calmed victim?
I mostly GM myself as well. This spell has not come up and I'm not sure how to RAW or RAI interpret it if it ever does. I've definitely been lucky so far in that regard.
I don't think I can give you great precedences for the a non-victim's actions. IMO, the fact that the text says "Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature..." implies that actions that aren't against the charmed creature (like gaffing his friend) are okay. Calm Emotion is a compulsion spell. There is a page contrasting charm and compulsion on d20pfsrd (sorry, no link, I am old and my web-fu is weak) which, after talking about the things a charmed person will and won't do, says...
Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works. A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster.
Compulsion spells are more powerful in their effects than charms.
The Bard's fascinate ability is also a compulsion effect and specifically mentions what breaks the condition, including drawing a weapon and nearby combat. You could interpret that this should apply to other compulsions (which I do not) or you could argue that Fascinate specifically mentioned these because it is an exception to general compulsion.
Again, I have no idea what RAI is, and I would happily go along with either interpretation. I tend to think that attacking friends would be okay. I realize this makes it a powerful spell and I think that is why they gave it Concentration as a duration. It takes your divine caster out of the fight to do this.
Anyway, I fear we might be threadjacking at this point...
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lots of good stuffGood discussion!
I don't think it is thread-jacking since if it is the best second level spell suggestion, potentially, that seems exactly what the OP wanted. And how to best apply the spells goes with that since some of the spells might be subtle in effect.
Well, at the very least, we'll be more prepared should anyone ever actually cast this spell in our games.
Re OP:
Very nice list.
My quibble would be this: the oracle, as a spontaneous caster with a limited list of spells known, should generally avoid taking spells that have effects that can be duplicated by other spells.
For instance, when you look at what all Heal can take care of, some of the lower level spells become a bit superfluous. Especially once the oracle gets to where he can drop numerous heal spells in a day (and don't forget he can always use higher level slots to cast lower level spells), things like remove sickness, remove disease, and neutralize poirson become obsolete. Likewise with say Remove Curse and Break Enchantment.
Granted there may be some benefit to the lower level spell at times, such as Remove Curse having a casting time of 1 Standard vs Break Enchantments 1 minute casting time. Or Restoration's much more manageable material cost vs Greater Restoration. (Although how often does one figure on casting Greater Restoration? If you have access to Miracle, then that is probably sufficient to cover those cases, so why take the Greater version of Restoration when Miracle can cover those situations.)
I understand that a spontaneous caster's spell list will be much more organic when the character is played from lvl 1 onwards. But there is a mechanism for sifting out lower level spells as one progresses. So I would think you could probably drop out a few of those spells that are duplicated by other spells in order to get access to other abilities.
But otherwise, very nice list!
I definitely agree with you, and yes, thankfully you can swap spells out as you progress.
The dilemma I'm faced with however is the idea of higher spell slot conservation and the concept of "overkill". Sure, Heal takes care of Poison, but is it worth casting heal just to get rid of the poison, when I could cast a 3rd level Neutralize Poison spell and then cast a Cold Ice Strike with that 6th level slot as a swift action along with it?
So the real question comes down to whether there is a great enough opportunity cost of keeping the lower level circumstance spells in my toolbelt vs avoiding redundancy by replacing them with higher level spell slots and taking something else instead.
As a Human, who gets two more spells per spell level anyway, I kind of lean toward the idea that it's probably better to just keep them around.
I figure if I have two or three spells per spell level that I could cast basically every encounter, filling the other known spell slots up with circumstance spells best exploits the advantage the spontaneous Oracle has over the Cleric - that is, if one of my party members happens to get diseased, I can take care of it right away rather than waiting until I can memorize spells again.
... I think I just made a good argument for fitting Breath of Life into my spell list...
Not listing them in any order. Just spells you should look at as a divine caster. There are a few that stand out for there effect. Marking them with *. They are spells I feal are realy important to have. Some spells are most used as wands or scrolls listed after the spell. They are still good to have on your list depending on what kind of character your making.
Level 1
Bless
Obscuring Mists
Burning Disarm
Cause Fear
Command
Comprehend Languages
Doom
Remove Sickness
Sun Metal (Only melee character)
Divine Favor (Only combat characterLevel 2
Grace
Hold Person
Silence
Sound Burst
Remove Paralyses
Resist Energy*
Restoration, Lesser (Wand)
Spear of Purity
Spiritual Weapon
Align Weapon (Only combat character)
Ghostbane Dirge (Only combat character)
Weapon of Awe (Only combat character)
Thanks for bringing Grace to my attention... Although I don't like how it only targets "self" it's still a nice feat replacement when the time comes up. Especially since it replaces like 3 feats (or a lot of skill points in acrobatics.)
Not sure if I'm a fan of Spear of Purity... I'd be more of a fan if it wasn't a touch attack WITH a save - if it were one or the other, I'd think it'd be a great second level pick - especially for a spontaneous caster.
Level 3
Bestow Curse
Blindness-Deafness*
Chain of Perdition
Remove Curse
Prayer
Dispel Magic
Remove Disease
How the crap did I miss Blindness-Deafness?
There are way too many good level 3 spells for all casters. It's a pain in the neck.
I kind of wonder if I should take Bestow Curse or Blindness-Deafness over Summon Monster III... Obvious advantages of Summoning over a save or suck spell aside...
I DO have a rogue in my party, thus making Blindness possibly a much better choice if the enemy's fortitude isn't insurmountable. Then again, making a Summoned Monster flanking buddy for the Rogue has a similar effect.
Level 4
Freedom of Movement (Scroll)
Blessing of Fervor (Scroll)
Dismissal
Dimensional Anchor
Restoration (Scroll)
Spiritual Ally*
Tongues
Neutralize Poison
Divine Power (Only combat character)
Blessing of Fervor as a scroll? Not sure if I'd go that route - I think I'd be casting that on our BDF (and rest of party) every combat... It's basically a Cleric's Haste spell.
Other choices are very good, as discussed.
Level 5
Break Enchantment
Breath of Life (Scroll)
Command, Greater
Ghostbane Dirge, Mass
Holy Ice*
Wall of Stone
Spell Resistance
Raise Dead (Scroll)
Fickle Winds
True Seeing (Scroll)
Righteous Might (Only combat character)
I agree, Breath of Life is probably best as a scroll (Though my GM likes to make those things more rare than mithril in the campaigns I play in.)
I really like Fickle Winds too - I'm kind of waffling on that one though since my GM just added guns to the campaign per UC, and I doubt that it protects against those ranged attacks...
Holy Ice caught my eye. Seeing it on your list gives it a second thought for me... As a spontaneous caster, it's probably better than Wall of Stone (if you had to pick between the two) since it's two spells in one, it has that versatility that we like...
I don't like its damage though, looking at it again, considering it's main use is against creatures affected by holy water... I think that might be why I skipped it...
Level 6
Heal* +(Scroll)
Blade Barrier
Cold Ice Strike
Dispel Magic: Greater
Banishment
Symbol of Persuasion (Scroll)
Heroes Feast (Scroll)Level 7
Waves of Esctacy
Destruction*
Resurrection (Scroll)
Restoration, Greater (Scroll)
Regeneration (Scroll)
Holy WordLevel 8
Divine Vessel
Earthquake
Stormbolts
I think we're generally in agreement here. Good picks.
Level 9
Miracle
Heal, Mass* +(Scroll)
True Resurrection
Energy Drain*
Etherealness
Implosion
Ah, the big downfall of the Spontaneous caster... that we only get three level 9 spells without spending feats...
Miracle is a definite must.
I was really waffling between Energy Drain and the two major healing spells at this level.. I kind of wonder if it's better to get than True Resurrection - since TR is highly circumstantial and in most cases a lower level spell suffices.
Implosion is a crazy powerful Damage spell I sort of missed... I don't really like it as a level 9 spell though, particularly since Fortitude NEGATES the damage, and you can only target a specific creature with it once.
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Most buffing spells work as well where you cast it or use a scroll. So scrolling all the buffs you can if your not a combat oracle is a good way to extend your encountres per day.
Spear of Purity : One of the few low level spells that deal enough damage to make it worth taking as a divine caster. And it's a will save so if your targeting most combat characters it will work.
I kind of wonder if I should take Bestow Curse or Blindness-Deafness over Summon Monster III... Obvious advantages of Summoning over a save or suck spell aside...
I never use summon monster. To me there over all power vs other spells is not that good. They make good flankers that is about all.
Holy Ice: Geting two effects with one spell makes this a must have. IMO
If I hade 3 9th level spells.
Heal, Mass
Energy Drain
Implosion
I definitely agree with you, and yes, thankfully you can swap spells out as you progress.
The dilemma I'm faced with however is the idea of higher spell slot conservation and the concept of "overkill". Sure, Heal takes care of Poison, but is it worth casting heal just to get rid of the poison, when I could cast a 3rd level Neutralize Poison spell and then cast a Cold Ice Strike with that 6th level slot as a swift action along with it?
So the real question comes...
Well what you'll find once you get into higher levels is that you have plenty of spells per day, but you never ever have enough spells known.
So you want to be really judicious when picking spells. Especially a spell that probably won't be used often. And more especially if another spell, even a higher level one, can do the job just as well or better.
You also need to consider your action economy, particularly in combat. You only get so many actions in a round, and generally will be limited to at most two spells in a round if you make use of quicken. So is it more effective to use your standard or swift action to cast a spell that does one thing, or the spell that does that and does a bunch of other things as well?
Take Remove Disease, for instance. Think about when you might want to cast that. In the middle of combat? Not likely. You probably have plenty of other far more effective actions to take than removing a disease. Even if you decide that you want to remove a disease from somebody in combat, you can probably get a much more effective and economical result out of your action by casting Heal or Mass Heal; not only do you remove the disease, but you can remove a number of other effects as well as heal up a bunch of damage to one or more of your allies. Out of combat? You already have at least three spells that can fix that, considering Miracle. Thus the spell becomes completely redundant.
Now look at say Greater Restoration. How often in a campaign will you want to cast that? It has a very hefty material component cost, so it won't see much action at all really. And if you have miracle and really do need to achieve that effect, you can still do so without having to keep a very precious spell known slot occupied by something you might want to cast once or twice your whole life.
So all in all I think you have the basis for a really great spell list. But I think theres some tweaking that can be done to give your guy some more options without any real cost to him.
Thanks for the feedback, and you make some good points.
I should probably look into how I plan on replacing those spells later then - it's certainly useful as I'm leveling up to have such healing spells, but you're probably right.
Most buffing spells work as well where you cast it or use a scroll. So scrolling all the buffs you can if your not a combat oracle is a good way to extend your encountres per day.
Spear of Purity : One of the few low level spells that deal enough damage to make it worth taking as a divine caster. And it's a will save so if your targeting most combat characters it will work.
I kind of wonder if I should take Bestow Curse or Blindness-Deafness over Summon Monster III... Obvious advantages of Summoning over a save or suck spell aside...
I never use summon monster. To me there over all power vs other spells is not that good. They make good flankers that is about all.Holy Ice: Geting two effects with one spell makes this a must have. IMO
If I hade 3 9th level spells.
Heal, Mass
Energy Drain
Implosion
Hmm... I dunno, I'm dumping dex on my Oracle, so Spear of Purity doesn't seem to be the best option for me - being low level though I could see it being a good slot waster and filler spell for scrub encounters...
That said, I like that feat Divine Interference - what a great way to spend low level slots by making immediate actions to force the enemy to reroll successful attack rolls, particularly if they're long-shots anyway.
And I really don't like implosion, and I just remembered why - the level 7 spell Destruction does basically the same thing against a single creature, except that even if the enemy resists the spell it still takes 10d6 damage. Implosion is a great way to clear out a whole room of lower level mobs, sure, but I certainly don't think it's worth giving up Miracle for.
If I were to pick a "Damage" spell over Miracle that would clear out a room of Mobs, I'd go with Polar Midnight first. Similar usefulness on lower level mobs, but extremely good crowd control for even higher level bosses.
I agree, Breath of Life is probably best as a scroll (Though my GM likes to make those things more rare than mithril in the campaigns I play in.)Be wary...
Any combat spell on a scroll as a Haunted Oracle is going to be harsh.
Breath of Life, due to being needed within 1 round is completely wasted (preventing death function) as a scroll unless you have it in hand when the character drops.
lol, true.
Guess the curse came back to haunt me.
For other Oracles though, if buying scrolls is an option, I think it's a fine deal.