Additional Skill Ranks: Would it disrupt the game?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


As a GM, if I increased the skill ranks for every base class by 2 (ex: Fighter 4, Cavalier 6, Ranger 8, Rogue 10) would it disrupt the game too much? I want to give players the incentive to purchase the Knowledge, Perform, Profession and Social Skills as I want them to be very important to the setting.


I run with this:

Classes that got 2 skills per level get 4 per level.
Classes that got 4 skills per level get 5 per level.
Wizards get 3 skills per level.
All others are unchanged.

It keeps high skill classes from dominating the non-combat scenes and helps everyone contribute.

Historically, I've seen problems of the bard or rogue gets four hours of solo gameplay while the rest of the players go to sleep just because they could cover all the social and subterfuge requirements far more than anyone else could. It was 'optimal' for the others to not help, more often than not.

If you're wondering about the wizard exception, that's because they end up with more skills than anyone regardless, just from being a primary int caster.

Shadow Lodge

i don't think it should be a problem, just don't push the skills of int based casters, they won't be needing anymore skills


Quote:
I want to give players the incentive to purchase the Knowledge, Perform, Profession and Social Skills as I want them to be very important to the setting.

I give my PCs a free Perform, Profession or Craft skill point every level in my AP games I run. People use them for random things, but flavorful things. Sometimes it comes up and is fun-- a PC being forced to dance by a foe, and having ranks in Perform (dance) and breaking out the moves while their party breaks the bad guy's bones. Sometimes it's immersive-- I had a PC in Serpent's Skull who kept journals full of drawings he made of things, creatures, people and places they found with Craft (illustration). After the game he went on to publish an entire Pathfinder Chronicle out of his books.

Knowledge skills and social skills are already extremely important. Don't let your PCs metagame and see how they fare versus enemies who are high CR. No way to tell what magical effects are in play, no way to tell what monsters can do, no way to tell anything about the world... boring, basically.


Ice Titan wrote:


I give my PCs a free Perform, Profession or Craft skill point every level in my AP games I run. People use them for random things, but flavorful things. Sometimes it comes up and is fun-- a PC being forced to dance by a foe, and having ranks in Perform (dance) and breaking out the moves while their party breaks the bad guy's bones. Sometimes it's immersive-- I had a PC in Serpent's Skull who kept journals full of drawings he made of things, creatures, people and places they found with Craft (illustration). After the game he went on to publish an entire Pathfinder Chronicle out of his books.

I pretty much do the same. Each character gets a bump up of two points but the two extras must be spent on Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession.

However I do add that they can't be spent on core class skills since the idea is to create more well-rounded and realistic characters with some background. For example; a Wizard can't use them on Knowledge (Arcana), but is free to take Knowledge (Nature) and the Fighter can't use them on Craft (Weapons), but could take Craft (Painting).

I also make sure to make the skills useful in the course of game, otherwise the whole thing is a moot point anyway.


GravesScion wrote:

However I do add that they can't be spent on core class skills since the idea is to create more well-rounded and realistic characters with some background. For example; a Wizard can't use them on Knowledge (Arcana), but is free to take Knowledge (Nature) and the Fighter can't use them on Craft (Weapons), but could take Craft (Painting).

I also make sure to make the skills useful in the course of game, otherwise the whole thing is a moot point anyway.

Why is any craft skill considered a core class skill of a fighter? A non-rounded fighter doesn't have any of those. He probably has stuff like knowledge (dungeoneering), climb, swim, intimidate, perception, and acrobatics before he even considers craft or profession skills. That's an int 14 human with favored class skills before I'd look at craft (weapons).


I often give characters an easy, say DC 5, Int or Wis check after they have had some relevant exposure. Been in the same town for a level or two? Everyone that makes their int check gets a rank in Knowledge(local). Been with a wilderness barbarian tribe for some time? Wis check gives a point of Survival, Int check a point of Knowledge(nature).

While this is slightly unfair to those players who put ordinary ranks into those skills anyway, it is only slightly, since they will have gotten the benefit of these ranks them in the interim, and there is never a lot of skill points to be gained this way, anyway.

Also, I feel this makes the characters more believable, since their mechanics now better reflects their history.

(This is one of the places "Roleplaying" clashes with "Optimizing". From a roleplaying viewpoint I feel that at least a fraction of your skill points each level should be devoted to skills you've been using a lot since the last level-up, and not just the skills that are central to your concept or will make you more powerful. None of my fellow players do, however... so when I GM I reduce my cognitive dissonance by handing out essentially free skill ranks. It's not ideal but it works).


I got tired of my players not having significant knowldege skills. I gave them 1 extra skill point per level which must be used to buy a knowldege skill. So far the change has been positive. I would think that adding a blanket 2 per level to be spent on anything would not be out of line.

Grand Lodge

I just give all 2/level classes 2 extra skill points, and have never had a problem with it.

Liberty's Edge

Kyle Smith, Role Player wrote:
As a GM, if I increased the skill ranks for every base class by 2 (ex: Fighter 4, Cavalier 6, Ranger 8, Rogue 10) would it disrupt the game too much? I want to give players the incentive to purchase the Knowledge, Perform, Profession and Social Skills as I want them to be very important to the setting.

The concern isn't that the classes themselves would be overpowered, but rather the value of each skill would diminish.

Skill classes are often tagged as lacking, but if you actually play with a 15 point buy and have to dump things, those extra skill points per level are basically a 5% better chance of doing a thing when you need to do that thing.

It isn't going to be anymore game breaking than playing above point level, but you are going to make skill classes less valuable in the long run.


Atarlost wrote:
GravesScion wrote:

However I do add that they can't be spent on core class skills since the idea is to create more well-rounded and realistic characters with some background. For example; a Wizard can't use them on Knowledge (Arcana), but is free to take Knowledge (Nature) and the Fighter can't use them on Craft (Weapons), but could take Craft (Painting).

I also make sure to make the skills useful in the course of game, otherwise the whole thing is a moot point anyway.

Why is any craft skill considered a core class skill of a fighter? A non-rounded fighter doesn't have any of those. He probably has stuff like knowledge (dungeoneering), climb, swim, intimidate, perception, and acrobatics before he even considers craft or profession skills. That's an int 14 human with favored class skills before I'd look at craft (weapons).

Perhaps it is personal thing, my Fighters always have at least a few ranks in Craft (Weapons), Craft (Armor) or a related Profession for equipment maintaince if nothing else. I suppose that has more to do with the Dungeon Masters I have played with than general concepts.

However, it mostly has to do with how I feel that Fighters would almost always take Craft (Weapons/Armor) over any other Craft choice, for the game benefits over the roleplaying benefits I'm trying to promote. Even moreso now, what with the Mastercraftsman feat. It hasn't really been an issue in truth because most of my players take Knowledge skills with their extra points since I'm a big pusher of using them.

Dark Archive

One way to do it might be to have a knowledge(general)skill that you get 1 rank in per level automaticly, you can add more if you wish though,which can give you a shot at knowing something general about a topic at a higher DC. Lets say the DC to recognize a holy symbol is 15 on a knowledge(religion) check, maybe for general knowledge it is 20, but you only know the name of the God, or something like - "that's a nature god symbol".


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I just give all 2/level classes 2 extra skill points, and have never had a problem with it.

I am the same. Minimum skill points for any class is 4 points (yes, even prestige ones).

I have been playing that way since the Beta, and haven't any problem. Nor have the skill monkeys felt diminished or threatened in any way.


In the past I've GMed that Knowledge skills are bought at two for one - put one rank in it to receive a +2. we had no problems with that. I'd forgotten about that for my current campaign.

This time in order to inspire my players to use their skills, whenever you roll a nat 20 on a skill check you gain a permanent +1 to that skill. Of course, it does get the players rolling, though I don't feel that many bonuses have been given out. It will eventually mean that all players have a decent Perception check, and it can make it difficult to check out a character's skill point. It also means the players worry more about losing the character sheets, as this is often the only record of these bonuses.

I borrowed this idea from an RPG called Camelot (I think that is what it is called).


Kyle Smith, Role Player wrote:
As a GM, if I increased the skill ranks for every base class by 2 (ex: Fighter 4, Cavalier 6, Ranger 8, Rogue 10) would it disrupt the game too much? I want to give players the incentive to purchase the Knowledge, Perform, Profession and Social Skills as I want them to be very important to the setting.

They still won't buy perform and profession skills considering that often useless. However you should expect players to buy knowledge and social skills almost always. In your setting a 14 Int bard human will have 11 skill ranks. This means that they will know a lot of stuff considering that they can buy all the knowledges. Lol.

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