I wonder, what would you think if your point buy capped your stats at no lower than 7 or no higher than 18 after racial modifiers?
For example, an elf could start with intelligence and dexterity no higher than 16 before taking into account the racial modifiers, with 18 total after adding them.
So long as it applies to everyone, I don't see a problem with it. The one issue that might bother some is that humans may be seen as being more powerful this way.
So long as it applies to everyone, I don't see a problem with it. The one issue that might bother some is that humans may be seen as being more powerful this way.
Please elaborate.
So long as it applies to everyone, I don't see a problem with it. The one issue that might bother some is that humans may be seen as being more powerful this way.Please elaborate.
I assume he means that having the option of putting your +2 stats anywhere you want means more if there are caps....
Honestly, I came from 2E and the open ended stat concept really takes a long time to get used to... Still not sure I'm there. haven't read too much in bestiary... but in 2E 20+ was 'giant strength' It's a tough stereotype for me to get past...
PERSONALLY I'd say cap them at 17-18 BEFORE racial modifiers.... I always liked my elves getting that 19 dex... ;)
Given the cost of high abilities and the distribution of +2 modifiers to races (some having more than one, some having one), a system that lowers the cap reduces the comparative power of those races that could get above that cap more easily.
PERSONALLY I'd say cap them at 17-18 BEFORE racial modifiers.... I always liked my elves getting that 19 dex... ;)
This is how it works already.
The intent in this case is twofold:
1. It makes racial choice matter less for various classes. It is still more economical to pick a race that can get a +2 in a valued stat, as that makes an 18 cheaper. However, it means that dwarven wizards are not struggling to keep up with an insurmountable difference.
2. It limits narrow focus and aids broader spending of points, especially in higher point buys. By this, it benefits MAD classes slightly as there's no longer an imperative for SAD classes to get that 20.
To make it clear: I do want race to matter less for characters.
PERSONALLY I'd say cap them at 17-18 BEFORE racial modifiers.... I always liked my elves getting that 19 dex... ;)This is how it works already.
I've seen a couple of 20/21 starting stats... with enough dump stats that is...
probably makes a big difference with what the starting point buy is though.
We tend to go pretty Epic ;)
To make it clear: I do want race to matter less for characters.
Then I think you're all set.
To make it clear: I do want race to matter less for characters.
Remove all statistics from base classes then and just give everyone the human template. Also don't allow gnomes or halflings.
Remove all statistics from base classes then and just give everyone the human template. Also don't allow gnomes or halflings.
Why would you say this? Don't be daft.
I want race to matter less, not matter none at all. By capping at 18, all it does is limit highly minmaxed stat arrays.
Remove all statistics from base classes then and just give everyone the human template. Also don't allow gnomes or halflings.Why would you say this? Don't be daft.
I want race to matter less, not matter none at all. By capping at 18, all it does is limit highly minmaxed stat arrays.
Moderation is for the weak and impure.
PERSONALLY I'd say cap them at 17-18 BEFORE racial modifiers.... I always liked my elves getting that 19 dex... ;)This is how it works already.
The intent in this case is twofold:
1. It makes racial choice matter less for various classes. It is still more economical to pick a race that can get a +2 in a valued stat, as that makes an 18 cheaper. However, it means that dwarven wizards are not struggling to keep up with an insurmountable difference.
2. It limits narrow focus and aids broader spending of points, especially in higher point buys. By this, it benefits MAD classes slightly as there's no longer an imperative for SAD classes to get that 20.
18 will just be the new 20. That is all that is being done.
I wonder, what would you think if your point buy capped your stats at no lower than 7 or no higher than 18 after racial modifiers?
For example, an elf could start with intelligence and dexterity no higher than 16 before taking into account the racial modifiers, with 18 total after adding them.
I do a 25 point buy with no bonus points awarded for lowering a stat under 10 (I give skill points or starting gold instead).
I think seven is still a little low. I wouldn't let people drop it lower than 8 for a 15 point buy, or 10 for a higher point buy. If someone wants a low stat for RPing reasons, let them prove it by taking the hit without a bonus to go with. They shouldn't care. Personally, I'm tired of all these characters charisma as a dump stat. It's silly.
Why do GM's care which stat is dumped. Everyone is bad at something. Now I think dropping to below a 7 is extreme.
Some even view having no bad stats as poor RPFrom another poster
I also think that "never taking a score with a penalty" is just as bad as dumping a stat.
I mean really all your characters are at least average if not better at everything? Every time? Not once do you have to contend with a deficiency, never have had a guy that is a bit shy and has to think of what to say before putting his foot in his mouth? Never had a character that maybe should have made a trip to the gym (or was too sickly to go)? Never had a smart smartarse that should have known to keep his mouth shut but couldn't (low wisdom) or didn't have the common sense to come in out of the rain (as the saying goes)?
It just strikes me as just as gamist to never have a 'dump' stat at all as to have an extreme dump every time.
Wraith Strike, I'd agree with your quoted poster if I experienced what he's talking about. I haven't though. In no group have I ever seen a character made without a dump stat unless the GM was hand holding and telling people to change their stats.
Think about Dragon Lance and the Heroes of the Lance. MAYBE Tika had a low wisdom. Raistlin had dump stats. Everyone thought Raist's brother had dump stats until Test of the Twins came out which proved he's actually smart.
Everyone else was average to good at everything, which makes sense - most people with a few advantage will have a lot of advantages. I know a lot of attractive, smart, fast, strong people. I also know a lot of disgusting, fat, stupid people with poor hygiene. I don't know a whole lot of smart, strong, fast people with good decision making ability that are bad at talking to people - that's a 1 in 100 type thing.
I have met a couple. The ability to come up with an idea, and the ability to relay it to others are far apart.
In any event I was just curious.
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Wraith Strike, I'd agree with your quoted poster if I experienced what he's talking about. I haven't though. In no group have I ever seen a character made without a dump stat unless the GM was hand holding and telling people to change their stats.
Think about Dragon Lance and the Heroes of the Lance. MAYBE Tika had a low wisdom. Raistlin had dump stats. Everyone thought Raist's brother had dump stats until Test of the Twins came out which proved he's actually smart.
Everyone else was average to good at everything, which makes sense - most people with a few advantage will have a lot of advantages. I know a lot of attractive, smart, fast, strong people. I also know a lot of disgusting, fat, stupid people with poor hygiene. I don't know a whole lot of smart, strong, fast people with good decision making ability that are bad at talking to people - that's a 1 in 100 type thing.
Less rare than you'd think. People who excercise and eat well actually support mental functions as well, being overweight tends to even hurt thinking. And excercise makes people both faster and stronger (generally). And people are more naturally attracted to being around good looking people.
Ultimately, while Dragonlance had a few flawed characters, most were top-of-the-line statted. And most other characters of legend have at least average in most stats. These guys are the heroes of the realms for a reason.
But generally story has nothing to do with it; I dump stats too, but in the end I do it because I would fall behind the power curve if I didn't, which would be less fun. Last game I gmed was also 25 points but nothing below 10. Worked well enough, but I think 20 without any below 10 would have been better, given the experienced player group I was playing with.
When I GM, I like characters to have 18s in their primary attributes, and low numbers in their off attributes. My only complaint about point-buy is that it encourages mediocre stats.
I've been using an array for years, and it's given great results. I give everyone [18,16,14,12,10,8], and they're allowed to move points from a higher attribute to a lower if they choose. Most often that's done to make [18,16,13,13,10,8] to qualify for feats that require a 13, or to make [18,16,14,10,10,10] if the player really doesn't like having a negative modifier.
With this system, the fighter can be very strong, the wizard can be very smart, and the rogue can be very quick, but each will also be essentially average (8-12) in other areas.
Also, it's quick, easy, fair, and encourages neither destructive min-maxing by the players with those tendencies, nor under-optimization by the players with those tendencies.